Talk:Mike Rinder/Archive 1

Archive 1

Although I don't agree with

Although I don't agree with User:Andrew eagles' use of revert warring tactics in regard to this article (and I've given him a 24 hour block for violating the 3RR), I think he was correct to delete these two sentences: "Rinder oversees all overt and covert activities of OSA and subordinate organizations. He has a particular hatred for former members of the Church of Scientology, refering to them as "apostates" and "wackos"." They lack sourcing and the second sentence in particular seems to me to be very biased. Please don't restore them as they are; find sources if you can, and try to make them accord with the NPOV policy. -- ChrisO 00:03, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Oops, my bad. I saw that info was being deleted from AndroidCat and Fahrenheit451's edits and automatically assumed NPOV. I read the OSA article more thoroughly (and thus he would have broken the 3RR rule there anyway so I don't feel guilty for his block thankfully) but will take more care in future. Thanks Chris, _{ĢĿ€Ñ §τοĿĿ€Ŗγ}^Ť_č 00:31, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, since you have effectively copied those two sentences to the talk page for discussion and for an attempt to find sources, I won't restore them. I will, however, restore what else Andrew deleted in a supposed attempt to "remov[e] incorrect & misleading data" -- namely, every single external link the article had except the official biography of Rinder on www.scientology.org .

One of the links is mislabelled; it isn't a USA Today interview with Mike Rinder (though I think it does count as sourcing for the statement that Rinder calls former Scientologists "wackos": "Both expressed their dissatisfaction with previous coverage of Scientology by major media outlets, and they warned against what they perceived to be the unreliability of the faith's critics -- "the wackos," as Rinder described them." "Rinder dismisses Christman as a "wacko" and says her allegations are "absolute bullshit."" [1]) We'll probably want to look and see if we can find the original USA Today interview with Rinder, though. -- Antaeus Feldspar 03:42, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Mike Rinder was never a member of the Guardian's Office. I am sure you cannot find any citation to the contrary as it never happened. Elruhr 06:23, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

His biography page at www.scientology.org states that "his first involvement with the Church’s external affairs came in 1980"; this must have been with the GO, as it had not been replaced by OSA at that time. However, none of the references supports the statement about him holding the post at Flag Land Base, so I've fact tagged this. Also, the external ref to an article in the 'LA Times' is not an "interview with Mike Rinder" as labelled; it's a piece about Tom Cruise in which Rinder is just quoted in passing: would anyone object to me deleting it from the Mike Rinder page? DavidCooke 03:49, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Rumour

It has been reported in background Scientology circles that Mr. Rinder has left the Church of Scientology, probably after doing the UK radio program "Talk Sport" on May 20th 2007. As he is or was the Head of Office of Special Affairs this is of importance. Mr. Rinder managed all international legal affairs and knows therefore "all" confidential actions and agreements. If he speakes out (improbable) there will be an earthquake in Scientology.

I have no 100% prooven evidence of the fact at hand. whiteheaven —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Whiteheaven (talk • contribs) 12:19:01, August 19, 2007 (UTC).

Wikipedia doesn't need rumours and gossip. Got any sources for this "it has been reported" claim of yours? wikipediatrix 18:18, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Anonymous rumor mongering at best. Possibly Mike Rinder kicked somebody's shin too hard. COFS 21:23, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

The sources are an anonymous post by an ex-member to an Internet forum 'confirmed' by another anonymous poster who added details. That's all so far, apart from Mr Rinder not having been seen by the media since the above date. Obviously if he has left his official Church biography will be removed, that has not happened yet. --Hartley Patterson 01:22, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Obviously. COFS 04:39, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, rumors are not prooven facts, I certainly agree. Therefore it is only discussed here. But if the Scientology Church / Religious Technology Center decides to keep Mr. Rinder's biography online - that is actually no proof he is still on post. In the past in numerous cases the fact was kept confidential for a long time that an important leading manager of the Church has been declared Suppressive Person (SP) or has been put in the Rehabilitation Project Force (RPF) for months and years or has left the Sea Org. Many of these persons are and have been kept in the Sea Org in the so called "Hall of SP" (to work hard for their rehabilitation), only sent on stage occasinally to present at important offical events to sock puppet Mr. Miscavige. Examples are Guillaume Lesevre, Heber Jentsch, Greg Wilhere and others. Whiteheaven 23:05, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

(outdent) Wow, another newbie behaving like a veteran Wikipedian [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11]! DNA replication technology must have jumped in the past week! Did I miss one of those recruitment postings, I mean, "Call to Arms" [12] [13] [14] you guys sometimes put out or what? BTW, COFS, you might want object being called a "jerk" there. Brings up the question, do off-wiki statements about on-wiki discussions count under WP:NPA? Misou 03:03, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Hartley P., could you please explain this? COFS 04:11, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Mike Rinder has indeed resigned from the cofs. There will be some substantial media coverage in the near future. David Miscavige declared him a S.P. and ordered him removed from his post as CO OSA Int. Rinder got fed up with miscavige, so he left. We will have to wait for the media coverage to document this event. --Fahrenheit451 04:35, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

More than five months later, and still no "substantial media coverage". The opinions of Tory Christman and Jenna Miscavige don't carry much weight, considering how distant they now are from the Church. DavidCooke (talk) 04:37, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but if he is out, Mike Rinder is now also distant from the Church. :) AndroidCat (talk) 05:55, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Mike Rinder in the media

• Touretzky, David S. (2003-12-01). "A Church's Lethal Contract". Razor Magazine. Retrieved 2007-12-23. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
• Morgan, Lucy (1999-03-29). "Abroad: Critics public and private keep pressure on Scientology". St. Petersburg Times. Retrieved 2007-12-23. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Morgan, Lucy (1999-03-29). "At home: Critics public and private keep pressure on Scientology". St. Petersburg Times. Retrieved 2007-12-23. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
• Adams, Stephen (2007-05-14). "BBC denies 'death threat' in Scientology row". Telegraph. Retrieved 2007-12-23. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Veenker, Jody (2000-09-04). "Building Scientopolis". Christianity Today. Retrieved 2007-12-23. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
• O'Neil, Deborah (2001-08-14). "Building boom expands lodgings for Scientology". St. Petersburg Times. Retrieved 2007-12-23. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Tobin, Thomas C. (2000-02-23). "Church member's death now called accident". St. Petersburg Times. Retrieved 2007-12-23. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Tobin, Thomas C. (1999-11-16). "Foe of Scientology plans move to area". St. Petersburg Times. Retrieved 2007-12-23. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Hoffman, Claire (2005-12-18). "From Mysterious Property Buyer to Community Presence". Los Angeles Times. Retrieved 2007-12-23. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
• Morgan, Lucy (1998-01-28). "Hardball: When Scientology goes to court, it likes to play rough -- very rough". Special Report. St. Petersburg Times. Retrieved 2007-12-23. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Jacoby, Mary (1998-12-13). "High profile couple never pairs church and state". St. Petersburg Times. Retrieved 2007-12-23. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
• Reitman, Janet (2006-02-23). "Inside Scientology". Rolling Stone. Retrieved 2007-12-23. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Morgan, Lucy (1999-03-29). "Internet is battleground in foes' war of information". St. Petersburg Times. Retrieved 2007-12-23. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Murray, James (2007-05-20). "MPs call for tax probe into cult". Daily Express. Retrieved 2007-12-23. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Morgan, Lucy (1998-08-03). "Millionaire's bizarre feud with Scientology escalates". St. Petersburg Times. Retrieved 2007-12-23. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Tobin, Thomas C. (1997-03-09). "Scientologists clash with protesters". St. Petersburg Times. Retrieved 2007-12-23. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Gibson, Owen (2007-05-15). "Scientologists may take legal action in Panorama row". The Guardian. Retrieved 2007-12-23. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Tobin, Thomas C. (1998-11-14). "Scientology charged in member's death". Scientology Charged. St. Petersburg Times. Retrieved 2007-12-23. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• O'Neil, Deborah (2001-05-26). "Scientology critic won't face retrial". St. Petersburg Times. Retrieved 2007-12-23. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Morgan, Lucy (1998-02-08). "Scientology got blame for French suicide". St. Petersburg Times. Retrieved 2007-12-23. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Morgan, Lucy (1997-12-23). "Scientology sponsored suit against opponent". St. Petersburg Times. Retrieved 2007-12-23. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Morgan, Lucy (1998-01-28). "Scientology: 'We like to make peace'". St. Petersburg Times. Retrieved 2007-12-23. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Tobin, Thomas C. (1998-10-25). "The Man Behind Scientology". St. Petersburg Times. Retrieved 2007-12-23. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Hoffman, Claire (2005-12-18). "Tom Cruise and Scientology". Los Angeles Times. Retrieved 2007-12-23. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
• Tobin, Thomas (1997-05-09). "When did she die?". St. Petersburg Times. Retrieved 2007-12-23. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

Many of these are probably just passing references. AndroidCat (talk) 05:57, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

February 5, 2008 article, Los Angeles Times

• Mike Rinder, head of Scientology International’s Office of Special Affairs. - Wonder when this picture was taken, perhaps the author of this article knows about his current status within the hierarchy? Cirt (talk) 07:03, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Eric Von Wade interview

Article says:

Furthermore In her interview with Eric Von Wade Christman clearly states that Rinder has left the church and has not just retired from his post.

But we don't have a citation for this interview. Anyone? --FOo (talk) 02:24, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

New source for info to add to the article

Cook, John (March 17, 2008). "Scientology - Cult Friction: After an embarrassing string of high-profile defection and leaked videos, Scientology is under attack from a faceless cabal of online activists. Has America's most controversial religion finally met its match?". Radar Online. Radar Magazine. Retrieved 2008-03-20. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

See page 3 of 4. Cirt (talk) 11:34, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Former "Church of Scientology" member vs. "Former chief spokesman"

Prompted by Justallofthem (talk · contribs)'s rightful challenging of the notion that Rinder is no longer a Scientologist, I modified the description to match the source. It was reverted by Raymond Hill (talk · contribs), stating "rv SPidern: sorry, we can't lose the essence of what the article says: "defected," meaning "no longer member," more significant and noteworthy than "no longer spokesperson". Two things must be noted here:

1. The Church of Scientology is a legal organization which oversees the dissemination of Scientology-related materials; Scientologists are technically members of the IAS, not this organization itself.
2. The source does not match your revision. If you wish to change the "essence", find a different source. ←Spidern→ 03:30, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

"Add to that the recent defections of several prominent Church members," That seems clear that he's left the organization, not merely quit as spokesperson, regardless of which label under the Scientology umbrella you want to use. As well, it's just not true that IAS membership defines Scientology membership, otherwise we could solve the question of numbers of Scientologists quite quickly. I believe there's a piece of paper that comes with completion of the Comm course that says that you can now call yourself a Scientologist. AndroidCat (talk) 05:13, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

You're both right. Sorry for the misunderstanding; I somehow assumed when he said "article" that he meant the Wikipedia article itself. I'll try to rephrase the statement to reflect the article better. ←Spidern→ 05:28, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

My point was not whether he is in the IAS (likely) or even what standing he has with the Church (no word on that). My point is that the Radar report, does not mention, nor should it, being hearsay, whether he considers himself a Scientologist still, i.e. a follower of Hubbard's teachings. Just as a Christian might leave the church but may well still consider himself a Christian. --Justallofthem (talk) 06:33, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good now, thanks. (Sorry for the misspelling of your name in the edit summary, genuine mistake -- clarification I feel necessary given we are on a Scientology-related page.) --Raymond Hill (talk) 13:51, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

"Commanding Officer"

None of the sources, nor the Office of Special Affairs article, mentions a position of Commanding Officer. So pending documentation, I've replaced it with "Executive Director", the title used in the former official biography. LSD (talk) 22:12, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Mark Rathbun and Mike Rinder in special report on Scientology and David Miscavige

First article in series

• Childs, Joe (June 21, 2009). "Scientology: The Truth Rundown, Part 1 of 3 in a special report on the Church of Scientology". St. Petersburg Times. Retrieved 2009-06-21. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)

Overall report page for multiple articles

• Childs, Joe (June 21, 2009). "Scientology: The Truth Rundown - High-ranking defectors provide an unprecedented inside look at the Church of Scientology and its mercurial leader, David Miscavige". St. Petersburg Times. Retrieved 2009-06-21. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)

Sources to be included in this article. Cirt (talk) 06:00, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Rinder and Rathbun try to contact Rinder's son

• Ortega, Tony (April 15, 2010). "Scientology Bigwigs Get the Classic Scientology F-U". The Village Voice: Runnin' Scared. Village Voice Media. Retrieved 2010-04-15.

Source, to add to this article at some point later on. -- Cirt (talk) 21:30, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Rinder interviewed by Irish Times

The Irish Times - Saturday, March 19, 2011 Scientology: inside and out . MartinPoulter (talk) 14:05, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Hm, the "spouse" infomation looks somehwat funny

---

2A02:908:EB20:86C0:81ED:811E:DFDD:FDE1 (talk) 06:17, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm not seeing it. What looks "funny" about it? Grayfell (talk) 07:00, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

"the nucleus of a group of Independent Scientologists"

Hi,

The article Scientology currently says: "more recently, high-profile defectors Mark Rathbun and Mike Rinder have formed the nucleus of a group of Independent Scientologists".

I marked it is "clarify" and explained this request on Talk:Scientology. Can anyone help with this, please? Thank you. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 22:43, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi there,

I have heard anecdotal stories of Rinder having more recently renounced belief in scientology as a religion however I cannot find any evidence to suggest this, but it is something that a better researcher than myself may be able to find. 82.3.91.37 (talk) 23:03, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

I just started reading Rinder's blog, and I think it's clear he's basically rejected Scientology entirely at this stage. Unfortunately I can't find any articles where he's worded it that way. But here's a quote from the Mission Statement on his blog, "I also believe that some find Scientology helpful in achieving their spiritual goals." And in his deposition in the Garcia case he says he left the "Independent Church of Scientology" some time around 2013-2014, and he "no longer considered myself to have that view of life." I would say all that adds up to, he is no longer any kind of Scientologist.

Would it be reasonable to rewrite the line in the lead this way, with a source link to the Garcia deposition, so we're using his own words while avoiding putting any in his mouth? "Rinder left the Church in 2007 after becoming disillusioned with what he perceived to be the increasingly authoritarian nature of senior management under David Miscavige. At the time of his departure he declared his intent to become an independent Scientologist, but has since stated he is no longer a member of the Independent Church of Scientology and he no longer considers himself to "have that view of life.[5][6]" — Preceding unsigned comment added by CleverTitania (talk • contribs) 20:50, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

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Organize Stalking by Scientology

Can Mike Rinder or someone include a section about his stalking experiences by Scientologists. It would be a great addition yay?

205.189.94.12 (talk) 19:32, 11 February 2018 (UTC)Bobby205.189.94.12 (talk) 19:32, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Capitalization of "Scientologist"

Capitalization of the word "Scientologist" is applied inconsistently in this article. It should be either capitalized or not, but I think it should be capitalized. Matuko (talk) 20:19, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

2 or 4 children?

Infobox says he has 2 children, and lives with them and his wife. But his new book (September 2022) was written to two children who are still in Scientology? So does he have 4 biological children? It's none of my business obviously, I was just confused by this. Mercster (talk) 15:58, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Looks like that has been fixed. Softlavender (talk) 06:51, 16 May 2023 (UTC)