Talk:Michigan Wolverines

NCAA Trampoline

I was browsing a lot of articles updating a spreadsheet of mine and noticed that my numbers on NCAA titles was off from what Michigan shows here. I realize that my own spreadsheet isn't relevant to this, just giving some context. I realized pretty quickly the discrepancy was from the two trampoline titles.

I did a bit of research, and I'm legitimately unsure if these count as NCAA Titles. I know Michigan is claiming them, but the NCAA doesn't seem to.

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/champs_records_book/Overall.pdf Notably it IS definitely missing one of Michigan's Gymnastics championships in the overall count that definitely happened.

http://fs.ncaa.org.s3.amazonaws.com/Docs/stats/gymnastics_champs_records/NCmen.pdf This actually notes the trampoline championship being in some way separate... but still does not count it as a team title anywhere.

Based on Michigan's newspaper and the Iowa link in the aricle, I think we can piece through what happened here.

https://digital.bentley.umich.edu/midaily/search?date_filter=before&date_filter_options%5Bbegin%5D%5Bfld%5D=date_issued_yyyymmdd_ti&date_filter_options%5Bbegin%5D%5Bvalue%5D=19700801&date_issued_begin_dd=1&date_issued_begin_mm=8&date_issued_begin_yyyy=1970&q=trampoline&search_field=all_fields&sort=date_issued_dt+desc%2C+issue_no_t_sort+asc%2C+issue_sequence+asc

https://web.archive.org/web/20090205104955/http://iowagymnast.com/Forum_Items/IowasFirstChampionship.pdf

Trampoline was removed from the sport after 1969, obviously the Big 10 disagreed, and the NCAA seems to have allowed competition to occur without it counting towards the team score as well? The definitely awarded individual championships, and they clearly call it out as somehow different in 1969 and 1970. But they also do not include it in any count of team championships.

@Jeff in CA: might know more about this? Embowaf (talk) 04:05, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

The NCAA's official records are internally inconsistent. (This is true on a scale broader than just gymnastics, as can be seen in the table below regarding inconsistencies in other sports.) These three NCAA team gymnastics titles of concern here (1 all-apparatus and 2 trampoline) are documented in the NCAA's files, but, in an error of omission, were excluded from one table ("Championships Summary" - "Total Team Championships") that was meant to be a comprehensive listing. Despite this, we can certainly rely on the other official NCAA documents in this case.

For example, the NC Men's Gymnastics Championships document (http://fs.ncaa.org.s3.amazonaws.com/Docs/stats/gymnastics_champs_records/NCmen.pdf) under "History" - "Team Results" clearly indicates that these trampoline titles were team titles, not individual competitions. Also, the "Team Championships" table on the following page plainly states, "Note: Michigan also won two trampoline championships." Even though these two championships are not included in the all-apparatus title tabulation, they nevertheless are referred to as team titles.

In 1967, the NCAA Executive Committee voted to eliminate the trampoline event from the rest of the gymnastics competition. It later designated a phase-out period ending in 1970, probably to allow current and previously recruited trampoline athletes to complete their college careers.

According to the Iowa article on the 1969 NCAA championship (https://web.archive.org/web/20090205104955/http://iowagymnast.com/Forum_Items/IowasFirstChampionship.pdf), the trampolinists on Michigan's team were the best in the world. And Michigan and Iowa certainly considered their trampolinists to be teams and were scored as teams (e.g., "The Wolverine’s trampoline team, the strongest in the world, topped the Hawks by a score of 27.45 to 25.0.")

The Michigan Daily article from 1970 (https://digital.bentley.umich.edu/midaily/mdp.39015071754035/645) is also particularly cogent ("Wolverine gymnasts capture NCAA trampoline competition"), stating, "Michigan successfully defended its NCAA trampoline championship yesterday by edging the University of New Mexico, 26.85 - 26.4." The team title was contested first, and then the top individual finishers advance to the individual finals the next day. The Michigan trampolinists "all moved into the individual finals."

NCAA inconsistencies in other sports with "unofficial" team championships:

	Unofficial NCAA Championship Years				NCAA Division I Team Titles (as of May 29, 2015)
School	Swimming	Boxing	Wrestling	Track & Field	# Unofficial	# Official	Total titles credited
Catholic		1938			1	0	1
Idaho		1940, 1941			2	1	3
Illinois				1927	1	17	18
Indiana			1932		1	23	24
Iowa State			1933		1	12	13
Michigan	1927, 1928, 1931, 1932, 1934, 1935, 1936				7	36	36
Navy	1925, 1926				2	5	5
Northwestern	1924, 1929, 1930, 1933				4	8	8
Oklahoma State			1928, 1931, 1933		3	48	51
Penn State		1932			1	45	46
Stanford				1925	1	106	107
Syracuse		1936			1	12	13
USC				1926	1	99	100
Virginia		1938			1	21	22
Washington State		1937			1	1	2
West Virginia		1938			1	17	18
Wisconsin		1939, 1942, 1943, 1947			4	24	28
Number	13	12	5	3	33	475	495

Jeff in CA (talk) 21:26, 10 May 2024 (UTC)