Talk:Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots/Archive 2

Playable Character Speculation

Old Snake is NOT Solid Snake. You can see that Old Snake has NONE of the facial fetures that Solid Snake has. Instead, he has a mustache. Big Boss has that mustache. Also, note the eyepatch on his eye. Another clue is that none of the characters actually address a specific "Snake", they just say "Snake". In the latest trailor found on IGN, you can actually see Solid Snake at the end. Hideo Kojima is famous for making surprises. If you have any questions, please post them in my User Talk Page. Remember, Old Snake is NOT Solid Snake! Information Center 09:00PM, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

These are next gen graphics dude, of course he's not going to look EXACTELY the same as the last game. Did MGS2 Snake look anything like MGS1 Snake? Nope didn't think so. Also Big Boss didn't have that mustache, he had a full beard. 2 things about the eyepatch, 1. It's not on the same side eye that Big Boss lost, 2. It's been confirmed to not even be an eyepatch at all, but a replacement to thermal goggles, binoculars, night vision, etc. The whole addressing Solid Snake as simply "Snake" has been in every game, if you played the game you'd know that. Finally (and most importantly), Kojima has confirmed numerous times that Old Snake IS Solid Snake. Big Boss Inc.

Do argue with me. I'm not sure. If you would like to debate, then do so at this website: [[1]], or here.

Or it could be a fourth clone of Old Snake. Or a number of theories actually. It's still speculation. -th1rt3en 16:25, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

If you take the link to that website you'll see the logical thoery. When I first seen the first trailer for MGS4 I already knew that it was big boss, knowing the director messes with the trailers alittle. I see for some reason your been very stubern in your way of thinkin and not accepting that it is big boss or at least concidering. I concidered it being solid snaked but going to that website just reinforced my theroy and really just makes more sence. The cloning theroy is pointless and stupid, just makes no sence. I think you should at least remove the old snake pic from the solid snake page until we know. Also off topic you banned me from editing the metal gear page because I tried to put up a Ninja pic of Olga on her page, could you put one up thats valid? Just think about it, why would we play as an older solid snake when big boss still has to be introduced into the game. Could work but people wana play as SOLID SNAKE, expessaly after MGS2.

Just Sayin! - Wolf 10:47pm Oct 5 2004 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.70.95.203 (talk • contribs) .

Besides the fact Kojima never outright lies about his games and has gone on record that it's Solid Snake, it's highly unlikely Old Snake isn't Solid Snake. And even if it's not Solid, until we've got something besides rampant, inaccurate, borderline mental speculation to go on, we're not going to add "OMG SNAKE IS NOT TEH SNAKE!!!!" as a section to this article. And I remind users that this is not an MGS4 discussion page. Unless you're considering modifying the article, take it to GameFAQs. Hyperspacey 15:07, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

You have it the other way around my friend, with comments simply such as "you're wrong" and ignoring the confirmed facts (such as Kojima repeatedly stating it's Solid Snake) shows stuborness to accept any other theory but your own. By the way that theory on that website is too flawed and inacurate, also whoever wrote it made up alot of false information to support his own delusions. Also I could say "people just want to play as BIG BOSS, expessaly after MGS3" but what does that prove?

I haven't actually read the theory, and I'm not on either side, but just because Kojima stated that it's Snake doesn't necessarilly mean it's Snake; he has tricked us before in making us think that Snake was going to be playable throughout the entire game in Sons of Liberty. Just a thought. 24.23.51.27 10:16, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

He tricked fans into thinking we were going to play as Solid Snake the entire game by not mentioning anything about a second character, so we all assumed that we'd be playing as Solid Snake full time. But now he confirms straight up that we play as Solid Snake and that he's old in MGS4 so we shouldn't even be debating this. So right now it's a confirmed fact that Solid Snake is old and is the main playable character in MGS4, and wikipedia is about facts, not internet theories. Big Boss Inc.

You make a good point big boss inc. I'm not totally sure about either theroy and I think noone should be for now, what Kojima says can't really be proved wrong yet so lets not get into a huff over it. - Wolf 12:26pm Oct 6 2006

Big Boss, Wikipedia isn't about putting down facts; it's about putting down what is verifiable and also notable enough to be put down. So if there is a big discussion about the plot of the game that is right now just speculation; if it's notable enough, than it should be included. Just like a celebrity's article would have a small sentence or two about alleged rumors of that celebrity; even if it's not confirmed, the speculation itself is verifiable.

Now, you say that Kojima confirmed that it is indeed Solid Snake. However, was it in RESPONSE to this speculation and theories? Or did he say it before all of these theories surfaced? If he said it IN RESPONSE... we should probably believe him. If he said it as part of an introduction or interview of MGS4, without putting much thought into it, than you don't necessarilly have to put what he says on stone.

But I do have to agree, he did say you will be playing as Snake and not Raiden from now on. However, maybe you could play both Solid Snake AND Big Boss? Who's to say you can't play both, and that Kojima never really lied? Just because he confirmed you will be playing as Snake, doesn't mean you won't be playing as Big Boss (or even Raiden for that matter, though not for the majority). 24.23.51.27 23:38, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Big Boss is dead, MGS1 says that his body is preseved by the military and serverly burnt the Old Snake in the trailers has no signs of any burns at all, The original poster features Big Boss's corpse in the line-up. Vamp survived you can see him in the backround at the end of MGS2 so don't go saying that, "Vamp is comming back and he died". Liquid survives through Ocelot, it hasn't been confirmed but it is pretty obvious it's because of The Sorrow. It is Solid Snake in MGS4 Kojima may enjoy tricking fans but he's not stupid either, after all the negative reaction to not playing as Solid Snake in MGS2 Kojima wouldn't keep Solid Snake as a non-playable character again. Don't go adding the speculation to the article

†he Bread 23:57, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Well Kojima also indicated that big boss will be back in MGS4 and I don't think hes brought him back just so we can view his body. I also don't think that sayin that old snake is usin his mask to camoflauge his face into young snake makes any sence, why would he need to do that snake is snake, it would make no difference to try to fool anyone to think he's still young, and to say that "that" snake was some kind of clone is kinda stupid and a pointless plot that wouldn't fit in well. I think that we will eventually be playing as solid snake and big boss since we were introduced to him as a major playable character in MGS3. But all in all I think its good to argue here as we are disscussing issues and finding answers we might not have known about. - Wolf 6:25pm Oct 6 2006 P.S could someone add a valid pic of olga in her ninja suit to her page.

Okay - When did Kojima indicate Big Boss will be back?

†he Bread 00:29, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

On the MGS4 promotional poster which showed the returning characters. Are you sayin he wont be in it or that you don't think he'll be in it? I thought you all wanted fact? Well? - Wolf 6:36pm

For one he looked pretty dead, two it was Yoji Shinkawa's idea to put him there, not Kojima's. He will probably play a sort of ledgendary part as he did in MGS1 & 2, I doubt he'll "come back to life"

†he Bread 00:47, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

If he's gona play the same part as he did in MGS ( a lifeless body) theres almost no point in puting him on the poster unless they want us to think hes in the game but not, which they could do but I'd bet against it big time since this will most likely be the last game, I hope, and they'll probly wana go out with a bang. You also can't say for sure that he looks dead since in the pic his eye is open (well looks open to me) and he is standin. And as for Yoji Shinkawa he probly put him there for a good reason like say usin him, and kojima's not the lead director remember it's Shuyo Murata's Project. Also sayin hes not in the game wouldn't be "considered fact" as ya'll would say. - Wolf 7:42pm

Kojima said that Big Boss would play a "major role" in the game, but that the playable character was Solid Snake (who was recognised by Otacon, Raiden and Colonel Campbell in the trailers as Snake). This precludes all theories that the playable character is some resuccitated, reverse-aged, cigarette-not-cigar-smoking Big Boss. Also bear in mind that Shinkawa's concept sketch from the press pack was done well before the game's place in the timeline and indeed its wider plot was determined, and that Kojima has (CITATION NEEDED) confirmed that Big Boss was put in on the whim of Shinkawa, rather than on directions from Kojima or Murata. I repeat, idle speculation is not for Wikipedia, and Wikipedia deals in facts, not rumours. Unless you've got citable sources posting up unverifiable theories as fact will simply result in myself or others removing it. Hyperspacey 09:19, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Ah, that's where you're wrong! He didn't specifically state WHICH snake! Could be anyone, who knows? Kojima does. Also, Otacon said an "old" friend wants to meet him. in MGS Portable Ops, Big Boss meets Campbell, and became friends. And he didn't tell us yet in FACTS what Big Boss and Solid Snake are going to do in the story, just that they are a big role in it. We can't write opinions (even though they are facts) we have to write the truth. Information Center

Of course, the E3 06 trailer have the words "Solid Snake" morphing into Old Snake, suggesting Solid was the older indivildual, and also, the official Show Maybe pamphlet (sourced in the article) names Solid Snake as the individual sent in by the UN to stop Liquid... Look, unless someone pulls out some amazing, Ninja-grade sources for Big Boss even appearing in the game, we're going to have to run with Solid Snake being the lead. There's no real evidence to suggest otherwise. The only inexplicable event so far is the appearance of Young Snake. Hyperspacey 18:19, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

So? The morphing words DON'T MEAN A THING! Kojima is known to trick people, especially in his game trailors. He had Solid Snake in a normal age at the first trailor, now he has many other people. There is no point in arguing. Please wait for the game to come out to verify any TRUE FACTS. Information Center

There's no need to wait for the game's release to verify some of the information on it, if not this article should be deleted in it's entirety, along with every other game-in-development article on Wiki. We have absolutely no reason to list the playable character as anything other than Solid Snake. Hyperspacey 15:11, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes they do mean something, it means that Solid Snake is the main character of MGS4, your distrust of Kojima has no place here so please give it up already. The first trailer wasn't there to confirm that Snake is old, it was there to confirm that MGS4 was being made, I doubt they had any idea what they were going to do with the game when they made that trailer, they didn't even use the same graphic engine as the current trailers. Big Boss Inc.

Listen to yourself. You said "to confirm MGS4 was being made", which means there are still possibilities! Yes, Solid Snake is in the game, being the main character and all, but his appearance may not be what he MAY look like in the game trailors. The latest trailor also showed a Young Snake. Withoud Kojima saying anything, he could be anyone in surprise (Solid Snake, 4th Snake, etc.)! I'm not saying that Old Snake not Solid Snake, but we just don't have enough facts yet. Also, I'm not saying that I disagree with you, but it sounds like you want me to. Look, unless you have proof, verified by Kojima, that the characters are what they are now, they are still open to debate. Information Center

I've updated the references- but even a cursory examination of the official website would've confirmed what's already been said here. Hyperspacey 14:23, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay then, why would they release MPO, a game where we know Big Boss is the main dude, and then release MGS4 starring an aged Big Boss?

†he Bread 06:40, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[[2]] Official confirmation that the old man is Solid Snake, which was I believe linked to in the main article's Plot section some months ago. See also, [[3]], "Solid Snake becomes Old Snake]], and [[4]], where Kojima himself states, "Solid - Is [his essence] = Old Snake". Considering he's also the only character we've seen playable, and that there's no evidence that you'll control anyone else, I think we can safely assume that the only playable character is an aged Solid Snake. I move to transfer this Talk topic to the archive now that it's settled. Hyperspacey 13:42, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

That is more than good enough for me. In the advent that people don't still agree, I suggest changing all mention of Solid Snake to Old Snake

†he Bread 02:30, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Agreed with †he Bread. Information Center

Everyone cool with that? Hyperspacey? I am going to go and do it now

†he Bread 08:11, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

No, because he is Solid Snake. This is from the Kojima Productions website: http://www.konami.jp/kojima_pro/english/pic/dl_img/mgs4_e3/snake_800.jpg And for those who are super-duper paranoid about me photoshopping some shit, here is the page it's from: http://www.konami.jp/kojima_pro/english/dl/mgs4_e3.html Look, it clearly states SOLID SNAKE above the wallpaper that has Old Snake on it! Thus, I am going to change "Old Snake" to "Solid Snake" because, well, that's who he is, and we do not know if "Old Snake" is an actual codename or alias given to Snake. No offense to anyone, but even I have my own theory on the possiblities of "Young Snake" and whatnot on my Metal Gear fansite, but I'm not going to put it up on Wikipedia as fact because I believe it's possible. Why? BECAUSE IT'S ALL SPECULATION! Stick with the "solid" facts. 75.28.39.120 08:49, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to bottom line this just for people who are confused. It has been confirmed that the character in the trailers known as "Old Snake" is in fact the character we know as "Solid Snake". It's Solid Snake. The end. Simondrake 23:28, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

This was a good debate. It was fun. Information Center

Watch this trailer: Trailer. Wait until the very end. The strange thing was, while watching that trailer (before the ending), I was thinking to myself "what if this old version of Snake is just a joke Kojima is putting in the trailers, and isn't going to be included in the game?" Then I saw the end... 144.173.6.66 11:50, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Didn't you guys notice when the words "Solid Snake" turn into "Snake Is Old" ?

Yes. We also noticed that Hideo Kojima has officially confirmed that the character you see is Solid Snake. This is a fact. Only facts and not speculation should be in a wikipedia article. Saying: "Yeah but Hideo has lied in the past so I bet it's not him" is not only wrong it's speculation. And just because he didn't mention Raiden before the game's release doesn't mean we should think the exact opposite of everything he says.

This debate has already ended, all evidence points to it being Solid Snake and anything else would just be speculation and does not belong here.Simondrake 19:28, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

The debate is over: thesnakesoup.org/?section=myths&content=mgs4-1 75.24.239.189 21:47, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

THIS DEBATE IS OVER, please do not continue to debate. INFORMATION CENTER© ^{talk contribs} 06:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

This debate is over, there is not much point in keeping this section here. There is also no point in deliberatly making the title of this section longer and more confusing just because then it would be longer and more confusing. Is it possible to delete this entire section since its entire premise, by definition, is speculation and thus innapropriate for wikipedia?Simondrake 09:11, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I'll archive it

†he Bread 01:22, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

WHO THE FREAK IS THAT GUY?

At the end of the TGS06 trailer (the latest), at the end there is this brown haired guy that looks extremely similar to big boss on the virtrous mission on mgs3. He is smoking a cigarette. If big boss smokes cigar's then could that guy be solid snake? THE YOUNG VERSION? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.42.161.66 (talk • contribs) .

There's a lot of speculation on the matter and none of it belongs here. We have no conclusive evidence as to who he is so we can't put a name in the article yet. However, Hideo has confirmed that the main person we see, 'Old Snake' is in fact Solid Snake...just older. If you want to discuss who he is I suggest you go to www.gamefaqs.com and find the MGS4 message board.Simondrake 12:04, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I know this probably is obvious (or not), but Solid Snake has blue eyes, even in the new trailers, and the guy at the end of the TGS06 trailer has brown eyes, meaning it's not Solid. I'm guessing either their's another clone (plasable, but unlikely), Solid and Meryl "did it" (highly unlikly, and this only works if they stayed together for some tinme after Shadow Moses, as hinted in a message in MGS2), or when Eva and Naked Snake got jigy at the end of MGS3, they went all the way (most plasable, but only if Eva has brown eyes, as I don't have a picture right now to check). The Gamer 13 9:50, 29 October 2006

Don't get me wrong, thats fascinating and I'm actually about to look for that in the trailers but it's not appropriate here. Move it to somewhere else that discusses the game not the page about the game. I use Gamefaqs.com

Simondrake 02:53, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Anyway EVA has blue eyes, pretty much no-one in MGS has brown eyes, but Simon is right, not really appropriate for WP

†he Bread 02:55, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Solid Snake has, and always has had, green eyes. In MGS1: The Twin Snakes, in MGS2: Sons of Liberty, and in the MGS4: Guns of the Patriots - green eyes.

No Snake has blue eyes, he has blue eyes in his pictire in MG2. In MGS2 he has green/blue eyes. In MGS4 he clearly has blue eyes, considering it zooms in on them.

Snake has green eyes.

cept volgin said "i don't like those blue eys of his".. as far as i recall he's alwaysh ad blue eyes

Alright go play MGS2 as Snake, look at a mirror in the Shell in the bathroom at Strut C in a VR mission. Thenuse the binaculors to zoom in on the mirror, Snake's eyes are enlarged and appear blue. Thusly Snake has blue eyes, hell he even had them in Metal Gear 2 when he looked like Mel Gibson.