Talk:McNally (surname)

Removal and reverts

@Gaelicbow: Hi! Recently you reverted an instance of major removal from this article (Special:Diff/1130939224), but then you appear to have self-reverted (Special:Diff/1131184944). Can you explain what the problem is with the article? I'm not familiar with this topic. Sincerely —Alalch E. 23:52, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Hello there! The surname has multiple origins from Irish. In order to be neutral it would be better to include none and have this article as a surname list only. Thanks, Gaelicbow (talk) 00:00, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

@Gaelicbow: Great to hear from you, but can you be more specific? Why does multiple origins from Irish mean that the content should be deleted, or that it has to do with neutrality? Perhaps the content can be rewritten or expanded, precisely to explain the multiple origins? —Alalch E. 00:02, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Essentially the sources that were provided are only one of many which all state different etymological origins. The most common origin, found all over the internet, and yet disregarded in the article in clear POV, is 'Mac an Fhailghigh' (son of the poor man). Gaelicbow (talk) 00:07, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

It’s so complex and trivial, I just think it would be easier to leave it as a surname list :) Gaelicbow (talk) 00:08, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

@Gaelicbow: I understand. But the sources are not bad right? They just differ. That needs to be resolved by saying "According to X source ... According to Y source ..." etc. This kind of content about names is fine, and is something that is, in fact, normally included on Wikipedia, despite maybe being a little bit unexpected in an ecyclopedia. Could you help rewriting the prose, since you're more familiar with the sources now than I am? —Alalch E. 00:17, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Cont.

@Gaelicbow: Hi! :) This page has been on my watchlist, and unfortunately my impression of your involvement with it is not very good, as it is starting to resemble WP:OWN. I understand that you would want to include what you believe to be the "best/truest" etymology, but can't find a reliable source to support that claim, and therefore don't want what you believe to be more marginal etymologies to be included either. That is not a reason to remove all of the prose. Warm regards —Alalch E. 16:02, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Hello there, I am conscious of appearing as WP:OWN in the McNally (surname) article and while that was not my intention, I apologize. You and others want the article to include prose and that’s understandable, despite most surname articles on Wiki just being a list of notable bearers. I will rewrite the lead in a way that is etymologically accurate and non-controversial. Best regards, Gaelicbow (talk) 17:49, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

@Gaelicbow: Great! I understand where you have been coming from, but sometimes something is better than nothing. Articles don't have to be perfect and cover every important fact; what relevant information is included needs to be verifiable, and this seemed to pass those thresholds. Wikipedia:Wikipedia is a work in progress! Best regards, see you around—Alalch E. 17:57, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
— User talk:Alalch E. 17:58, 15 March 2023

Quoted above from my talk page is the discussion that followed the March 12 comment. —Alalch E. 07:56, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Cont. 2

@Gaelicbow: Hello again! :) Would you kindly answer what does Notable people rm unagreeable mean as a summary of this edit whereby you again removed the leading prose? Kind regards—Alalch E. 21:19, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

If you could answer on this page as opposed to my talk page, to keep the discussion in one piece, that would be great. —Alalch E. 21:22, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

It means just include notable people and removed the prose because it’s unagreeable. I know we should include prose in Wikipedia articles, but if certain users are unwilling to agree with whats written (i.e. a compromise of both derivations) – what’s the point – it doesn’t hurt to just remove all prose and thereby remove all apparent controversy.

Thanks, Gaelicbow (talk) 21:29, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

@Gaelicbow:Am I understanding it well that you disagree with this prose because it lists some etymologies, but not the one which you consider to be the most prominent one? —Alalch E. 21:32, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

A surname page ought to include information about the name (origin, etymology, distribution etc) where this is available from WP:RS, as well as a list of name-holders, although the majority of surname pages don't yet do so. If different RS show different origins then the article should reflect that, with sources. In this case I note that RS differ, and I will add the three sources I have found. PamD 08:30, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Three sources, all available through the Wikipedia Library, used to expand the article lead. PamD 08:54, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for adding these RS'. I have slightly changed the format of your revision, and the lead intro because it prioritises Mac Con Uladh. In addition, I have added info from the Ó Ceallaigh JSTOR source, and fixed typos (I removed reference to McNaul and McNeilly because while etymologically related, they are different, potentially unrelated names; not variants). This hopefully, now including reliably sourced prose and all origins, should not be subject to constant edit warring. Gaelicbow (talk) 21:33, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Cont. 3

I disagree with Gaelicbow's bold move and other systematic changes to multiple pages relating to this topic, for reasons stated in my edit summaries: this page (reversion of move), this page (restoration of content), and McNally (reversion of split). —Alalch E. 11:02, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Pinging PamD (whose additions had mostly been reverted) to kindly review the changes and reverts, and thank you for your contributions to this page and input thus far.—Alalch E. 11:04, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

To add: There's a very clear reason why the list of notable McNallys can't be included in the page McNally and needs to be included in the page McNally (surname)—MOS:DABNAME: There are two options for listing name-holders. A list of name-holders can be included in a People section of the page. For longer lists (of 12 or more entries), and as an alternative for a short list, an anthroponymy list article can be created and linked from the disambiguation page. Long lists of names do not belong in dabs and are split into surname pages, like this one.—Alalch E. 11:13, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Hi, I've re-added reference to McNaul in order to clarify the confusion with Mac Con Uladh. I'm sorry, but I think that prioritizing the highly debated etymological origin from Mac Con Uladh in the lead is highly problematic and simply misinformation. In order to avoid pointless edit-warring, lets discuss any issues with this revision here...

PS: McNally and McAnally are more than just closely related, they are synonymous surnames - like Johnston and Johnstone Gaelicbow (talk) 17:11, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Update: I see that you removed the prose again and I have reverted that. I don't think that removal of the prose is a good idea. It's well-sourced, informative and seems like it could be useful to readers. I understand that you have certain objections, but if you really want to pursue removal I recommed discussing it further.—Alalch E. 11:12, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Hello there again (sorry for late reply), I've since made a new article if you're interested – Mac an Fhailghigh – a place for comprehensive prose on this main etymological/familial origin for McNally, and am planning to make an article Mac Con Allaidh for the alternative Gaelic origin in Ulster (see Ó Ceallaigh / Branches of the Cenél nEógain). As said above, 'Mac Con Uladh' has nothing to do with McNally (see Ó Raifeartaigh).

As such, McNally (surname) as a page, will just be repeating what will be on other pages (specifically for origins) and readers can simply be redirected to specific Gaelic name pages. Let me know your thoughts on this and we can discuss further. Thanks, Gaelicbow (talk) 16:23, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

@Gaelicbow I apologize for missing this reply of yours in May. Would you kindly comment on the situation now that the prose is nowhere to be found again? Is this how you want the page and the connected name lists to be? I intend to restore some version of the prose here. —Alalch E. 08:24, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Cont. 4

@Gaelicbow: Hi how's it going? You removed the prose saying that you're moving it to "MacAnally", but that page does not exist and you did not move this content to McAnally either. Did you perhaps move to some other page?—Alalch E. 07:37, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

@Gaelicbow: Hope you're having a nice autumn. How is it going with sorting out the Nally/McNally/McAnally explanatory prose? The last thing that I've become aware of from your summaries is that "It's been moved". Where is the content located now?—Alalch E. 19:37, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

At some point you had created Mac an Fhailghigh but then redirected it. Indeed, such a page is not a viable mainspace page as it is not truly an article nor is it an anthroponymy list, it's an "etymology page" and that's not a standard page category, and Wikipedia is not a dictionary. So you did right to decide against this page being kept. But the prose can't be found anywhere now. —Alalch E. 19:44, 22 September 2023 (UTC)