Talk:Mayor of Derry City and Strabane

Change of name

The change of name of the Mayor needs to be cited. It is possible, perhaps probable that the name is tied to the City and not the Council.Traditional unionist (talk) 12:58, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

We have not thus far had any evidence that the name of the Mayor has changed. The City has a Charter, and the City has a Mayor. The Council changing it's name has no bearing on this. If It is not referenced in 7 days I will move the page and set about changing references to it. If this becomes disputed I will FOI the Department of the Environment.Traditional unionist (talk) 18:32, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

We're lacking a reference either way. I originally chose "Mayor of Derry" as that's the terminology the council uses (for obvious reasons). I was of the understanding that the official form of the mayoral title is "Mayor of [name of district council]". If this is the case - and I don't have a reference - then we're in the same situation as with the name of the council - i.e. the name change appears to have been officially confirmed by Patten in 1984. However, if the official title of the Mayor is ordained by the charter, then you are correct, and it has not changed. I'm sure that an FOI request would be enlightening. Out of interest, are FOI requests officially published somewhere? Warofdreams talk 23:38, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

The spirit of the law says yes, the implementation very often means no. However it could be referenced as an FOI request, as anyone wanting to verify it has the same rights to request it as I do. The reason that I make my claim is that both Newry and Armagh have Mayors. Both are District Councils, and operate as District councils, save both elect Mayors, indicating that Cities have Mayors, not councils.Traditional unionist (talk) 23:43, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that the case of Armagh tells us anything, as - despite the odd formulation of "City and District", it is in fact the district which has city status. The Newry example is more useful, as city status was not conferred on the district, and the Mayor is "Mayor of Newry and Mourne" - in other words, mayor of the district. Not conclusive, but I'd say evidence that the council has a mayor, not the city. Warofdreams talk 00:05, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't be surprised if the Council has got it wrong. Both councils operate as Districts in all other respects, members do not have robes and cannot elect Aldermen from their number. The Term Mayor is the only difference they have from NI's other districts.Traditional unionist (talk) 00:11, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

It could be that the council have got it wrong. However, searching through the pretty comprehensive City Status in the British Isles, 1830-2002 doesn't mention anything about mayorality being granted to a city, and it's quite vague on the question of a Lord Mayorality (although that has apparently only once been granted alongside the letters patent giving city status). Part of the confusion is that Newry is unique in that it has been granted city status, but that status does not apply to any form of local government, nor do there appear to be any charter trustees. Warofdreams talk 01:51, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Have you ever seen a copy of th Charter granted to Londonderry? I think that might help.Traditional unionist (talk) 11:41, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I've just been reading through the Road Traffic (Northern Ireland) Order 1981 (still in force), it refers to the City of Londonderry. This may not be relevant! --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 14:29, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[de-indent] I don't think that is relevant here; it just tells us that the official name in 1981 was the City of Londonderry, which is something everyone agrees on. I haven't seen a copy of the charter; this would probably be very useful. Do you have access to a copy, or have you seen one? Warofdreams talk 14:43, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

never. I'll take advice on how to proceed.Traditional unionist (talk) 15:26, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Charter

I've just added to the article a quote directly from the Charter. To me, this suggests that there is a Mayor of Londonderry, not of Derry.Traditional unionist (talk) 14:37, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Great, that's a fantastic source. From that, it looks pretty clear to me - unless the definition of the post has since been modified by a later charter - the official title is Mayor of [city], and as discussed above, the legal title of the city is Londonderry. There is still a case for using the title commonly used by the council, but I think that moving the article to Mayor of Londonderry is justified. When we do this, we should add a sentence to the introduction explaining that the council refers to the post as the Mayor of Derry. Warofdreams talk 16:02, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I think we do need to check that it hasn't been ammended, but I'd almost be certain it hasn't. The judgement from last year would be a good place to start. I'll have a look on westlaw now and check it over tonight.Traditional unionist (talk) 16:36, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Westlaw was useless for this, and the CourtsNI website is painfully slow. But we got there in the end = here is the judgement so itrs easy to find.Traditional unionist (talk) 16:50, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for finding that. It shows that the post was modified by the 1840 charter, but there's no indication that the title of the post has become linked with the district rather than the city. Warofdreams talk 19:54, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I'd like Counter-Revolutionary's opinion on that to be sure.Traditional unionist (talk) 12:35, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the charter seems to be the difinitive source, i.e. it's not linked to the name of the city, whatever that may be. The twi need to be changed separately. It's Mayor of Londonderry. --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 21:26, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I have been looking at the Derry City Council website, and using it search tool: zero hits for "mayor of londonderry", but only two for "mayor of derry"; however there are plenty of hits for "mayor". I wonder if the city council is trying to minimise the use of "mayor of", in order to avoid offence? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:45, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

The problem the council have, and they hate it, is that they cannot change the name of the City, and cannot change the charter that they opperate under. The Council can vote to call itself Johnhumeland if it so desires, the city remains Londonderry. The Charter dictates that the Mayor is of the City, not the Council (as they tried to tell me a few months ago). The political wishes of the council matter not.Traditional unionist (talk) 17:48, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Is this more or less important than how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Most of the articles on public bodies in Northern Ireland are miserable stubs, and even the article on Derry City Council is only start-class. Hardly surprising, when so much editorial energy is diverted into this sort of dispute :( --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:57, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Nonetheless, duscussions on things like this show the IMOS compromise for what it is - daft and a derrogation from WP policy.Traditional unionist (talk) 18:23, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

This is starting to look an illustration of the make-sure-to-offend-someone and if you can't offend them then take-offence-yourself principle. Anything that doesn't suit one side is daft; the next step is for someone to respond "just ridiculous", and off we go, until the temperature is raised enough for both sides to unite against in mutual loathing of anyone who proposes any sort of compromise. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:49, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Thats quite an odd supposition to jump to. What this is about is verifying the facts. I use the venacular Derry in conversation, almost everyone does. But this is not about venacular, it is about the correct name for an office.Traditional unionist (talk) 21:01, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

For this we use WP:COMMONNAME the common name is "Mayor of Derry" Mayor Of Londonderry and Mayor of Derry so google hits give it to Mayor Of Derry. BigDunc (talk) 19:01, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

That is not a satisfactory test, as many discussions on the matter, particularly at Talk:Derry show. This article is about an office, that of Mayor of a City. This is not about venacular, it is about the verifiable fact. The charter is very clear.Traditional unionist (talk) 21:01, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Just want to point out that a 10-1 result in favour of Derry clearly show what the common name is, and that here we go by Wikipedia guidelines and policies not charters. BigDunc (talk) 21:31, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Your test is imperfect. There is more than one city called Derry and more than one Londonderry. Your wikistalking also reduces the validity of your argument.Traditional unionist (talk) 09:48, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

And who would I be wikistalking? Or is this your private crusade? BigDunc (talk) 10:01, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Please remain civil. I have already submitted a complain against you on that score.Traditional unionist (talk) 10:06, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Are you having a laugh you accuse me of wikistalking and then tell me to remain civil, when I ask you who am I stalking. For your information I came across this when you posted on BHG page. Still have not answered who am I stalking? BigDunc (talk) 11:20, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Perhaps we could reopen the discussion on this matter. The google searches don't tell us anything as there are many towns and cities globally called Londonderry and Derry. The charter is clear, and as this is an office and not the city, IMOS doesn't apply.Traditional unionist (talk) 11:52, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

The name we use on Wiki is Derry regardless of any official names.

Mayor of Derry returns 57 results from the BBC, with just 8 for Mayor of Londonderry. Likewise Mayor of Derry returns 22 results for 4NI, who have just 2 for Mayor of Londonderry. The results are clear, and the miniscule 80 unique hits for "Mayor of Londonderry" shows exactly what the common name is. --Domer48 (talk) 07:41, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

This is a very imperfect test. There are several other places with the same name. Also, by this logic, Derry GAA needs to be changed to Londonderry GAA in line with IMOS. Clearly, that is not sensible, just as this is the Mayor of Londonderry, referenced and cited.Traditional unionist (talk) 10:07, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

there is very little point in discussion if you two are going to go ahead and edit war anyway.Traditional unionist (talk) 10:21, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

If it is a very imperfect test due to there being other places with the same name, please show exactly which results on the BBC and 4NI searches are referring to places other then the city Derry/the other name in Northern Ireland? Once you have done that, we can amend the figures from the 57/8 (for the BBC) and the 22/2 (for 4NI), and still see that "Mayor of Derry" remains the common name. Domer48 (talk) 08:40, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

You can't take two examples as definitative. the only authoratitive way of determining the common name is a simple google search, and that can't be used. Incidently, being childish in your comments doesn't help your argument.Traditional unionist (talk) 10:11, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

It is not suggesting its definitative, but would you like to try provide a source that says L.Derry is the most common name? --Domer48 (talk) 15:46, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Obviously not, as there is no clear way of determining it one way or the other. The only thing that is clear, is that the office, is the Mayor of Londonderry, that is sourced more than adequately.Traditional unionist (talk) 16:16, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Edit warring

I honestly don't know what the point in opening a discussion is, when two editors take on themselves to be guardians of their version of wikipedia. It is infuriating, a breech of civility and unacceptable.Traditional unionist (talk) 10:43, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

The same goes for you TU stamping your feet and handing out warnings when you are edit warring is not helpful. BigDunc^Talk 10:46, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. I'm sure you'd rather you went unchallanged.Traditional unionist (talk) 10:48, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Ditto. BigDunc^Talk 10:49, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

If you see above you'll find I engaged in discussion before making any edits. You waded in and made the artiocle conform to your version of reality. Without discussion. I didn't need challanged.Traditional unionist (talk) 10:50, 14 May 2008 (UTC)