Talk:Mauree Turner

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 07:07, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that Mauree Turner is the first publicly non-binary individual elected to a U.S. state legislature?

• Reviewed: IOU Template:Did you know nominations/Peter Lagger

Created by TJMSmith (talk) and Muboshgu (talk). Nominated by Muboshgu (talk) at 23:30, 9 November 2020 (UTC).

• : Hi Muboshgu, review follows. Long enough, new enough, reasonably written, neutral, I'm struggling to get earwigs to work, but spotcheck suggests no problems w/ copyvio, sources seem reliable, all sources I spotchecked lined up. Hook is supported and is an interesting first. Just waiting on QPQ. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 16:41, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Eddie891, sorry for the delay. QPQ provided! – Muboshgu (talk) 05:25, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
    • QPQ is good. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 16:52, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Pronouns

First consensus

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Consensus to use feminine (she/her/hers) pronouns. — Twassman [Talk·Contribs] 20:40, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

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"Turner is queer and non-binary. Typically, non-binary persons use they/them and she/her pronouns. However, since she was genetically born a female, with two X chromosomes, she is biologically and scientifically a woman."

That paragraph reads a lot like a defence of why this article is written with the pronoun "she". What is Wikipedia's policy on pronouns? Does wikipedia use someone's preferred pronouns? --84.13.230.191 (talk) 14:34, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

WP policy is to use preferred pronouns, and the subject of this article uses she or they. Source [1] --84.13.230.191 (talk) 14:39, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Most of the sources we use for this article use "she", and her official website uses "she". I think we should as well. --GRuban (talk) 19:42, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Let's count what our sources in the article use to refer to the subject. Here is every single reference:

1. https://oklahoman.com/article/5675468/oklahoma-elects-first-muslim-nonbinary-state-legislator she/her
2. https://www.ardmoreite.com/story/special/2020/06/01/floyd-death-prompts-solidarity-march-in-ardmore/111893052/ she
3. https://www.cairoklahoma.com/blog/a-conversation-with-oklahomas-muslim-candidate/ she/her
4. https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/11/04/mauree-turner-first-non-binary-lawmaker-us-history/ they
5. https://oklahoman.com/article/5664622/house-district-88-democrat-faces-first-primary-challenge she/her
6. https://nondoc.com/2020/06/30/mauree-turner-takes-hd-88-ajay-pittman-retains-hd-99/ her
7. https://ballotpedia.org/Oklahoma_House_of_Representatives_District_88 no pronouns
8. https://people.com/politics/election-2020-first-non-binary-state-legislator-and-first-muslim-oklahoma-lawmaker-elected/ she/her
9. https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/05/politics/first-nonbinary-and-muslim-oklahoma-lawmaker/index.html she/her
10. https://oklahoman.com/article/5671816/pete-buttigieg-endorses-okc-democrat-mauree-turner her
11. https://oklahoman.com/article/5673417/us-sen-elizabeth-warren-endorses-okc-legislative-candidate her
12. https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-54806677 no pronouns

So that's 9 for she/her, 1 for they, and 2 that didn't use pronouns (they're one very short mention, and one automated form, so I don't think they went out of their way to avoid pronouns). And, possibly most important, as CNN writes, "On Turner's campaign website, Turner uses she/her." There hasn't been any other comment here for months, so I think we need to change to she/her, per clear preponderance of the sources, including the one controlled by the subject. --GRuban (talk) 17:03, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Current consensus

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Consensus for she/her pronoun usage in March 2021. Article changes to they/them pronoun usage per MOS:GENDERID by October 2021 after new sources were added sometime between March and October 2021. TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 21:14, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

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The pronouns have been changed several times since this small thread concluded (including today; the article currently uses they/them as a result of the most recent change), probably by well-meaning users who assume all nonbinary people use they or assume Turner would prefer they because it seems to be listed first in e.g. the representative's twitter bio. Turner's website uses she/her. I can't find anything else which clearly indicates a preference one way or the other, and recent news coverage is mostly too brief to use any pronouns, although this mentions and uses only they/them and discusses how people misgender Turner, so maybe the writer has some more recent information (or maybe not). -sche (talk) 01:46, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Since her website uses she/her, that's the one we should use per MOS:GENDERID. Mgasparin (talk) 09:20, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

This quote from the article illustrates the stupidity of using "they/them" for individuals, nonbinary or not:

"They are Muslims, raised in an interfaith Baptist and Muslim household."

Supposedly, "they" refers to her identification with both male and female, but she is still just one person, so she is "Muslim", not "Muslims". Furthermore, the verb in that sentence should be "is", since she is an individual. So "They is Muslim" is how that should read.

Gender Speak, as I call it, is one of the more bizarre and stupid things that we have gotten from trans people. It is, without a doubt, a politicized vocabulary which has NOT been accepted by a majority of people anywhere in the world; and for that reason alone, no encyclopedia should be using it. Furthermore, this example from the article shows how confusing it is. (Even people who use it don't know how to use it properly!) What good encyclopedia is written in confusing language? The answer is, None. Wikipedia, of course, is not a good encyclopedia, so I suppose it doesn't matter here.

The stupidity never stops in this place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.38.185.65 (talk) 07:47, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

I changed the statement to They are Muslim, as that is how the singular they works. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:30, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

No, you have got it wrong. "They is Muslim" is how this trans lingo is supposed to work. "They are Muslim" suggests that Turner is two people; she is not. The word "they" is being used only because neither "she" nor "he" is correct because the person is nonbinary -- although in this case my understanding is that she doesn't mind being called "she". You have just proven my point that using Gender Speak is too confusing and should be abandoned. (Redacted) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.38.185.65 (talk) 13:53, October 26, 2021 (UTC)

Read MOS:GENDERID and singular they. Just because it is too confusing for you does not mean that we shouldn't follow the use of the singular they. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:24, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Listen, this is basic grammar. If the subject of the sentence is singular (a single person), then the verb has to be singular. If it is being done otherwise on Wikipedia, then all of Wikipedia is making a mistake. "They" in this case doesn't refer to the number of subjects, but the gender identity of the subject (unless, of course, Turner has two heads). You yourself just referred to it as the "singular they". So if "they" is singular when applied to nonbinary people, then it must take a singular verb, meaning IS not ARE. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.38.185.65 (talk) 00:11, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

From the APA Style Guide, Use a plural verb form with the singular pronoun “they” (i.e., write “they are” not “they is”). – Muboshgu (talk) 00:58, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

A couple years ago I read an article by a transgender authority who said the opposite. Correct grammar also says the opposite. I don't know why the APA is weighing in on this, but I think they are wrong. The APA is not an authority on the English language. If I wanted to spend the time researching it, I suspect I could find authorities that say the opposite. But since I don't use Gender Speak, it hardly matters to me, and I am not going to waste my time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.38.185.65 (talk) 03:21, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

A couple years ago... Yes, a couple years ago. Guidance has changed from Associated Press Stylebook and the Chicago Manual of Style. APA is weighing in because the APA Style Guide oversees APA publications. Name the style, I believe they've weighed in approving certain uses of the singular they. But, if it doesn't matter to you, it won't matter what wording is used in this article. – Muboshgu (talk) 03:30, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

No, you and the APA cannot be right about this, and there is a simple reason why. If it is proper to say, when speaking of Mauree Turner, "They are nonbinary", then it must also be correct to say, "Mauree Turner are nonbinary", but no one would ever say that. In the English language there is no ultimate authority, and that includes the AP stylebook, which is very much a captive of politics and trends (note the capitalization of "black", as in black people).

I have still made a strong argument why Gender Speak should be avoided by Wikipedia. And by the way, I was once a happy and productive Wikipedia editor until I realized the site is controlled by cliques of editors with political, religious and social agendas. The contents of the encyclopedia are determined by whoever wins the editing wars. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.38.185.65 (talk) 03:41, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Censure of Mauree Turner

Resolved

 – Updated article with March 2023 censure. TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 21:17, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

The Oklahoma House of Representatives has censured Mauree Turner as of 3/7/23 which can be found here: [2]https://www.okhouse.gov/posts/news-20230307_1 - I'm hoping to see if someone else could help note this down as I am not familiar with editing Wikipedia. thank you! 198.187.154.2 (talk) 18:32, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

I'll try and add something later. I'm going to list a few sources below covering the censuring TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 22:32, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

National coverage

• AP News

State coverage

• KRMG
• NonDoc
• Tulsa World
• Black Wall Street Times

Other Muslims’ opinions?

It’d be interesting to see if other prominent figures in the Muslim world (such as clergy, religious scholars or even other politicians) have commented on the relationship between Turner’s religion and their gender identity.

I doubt most clergy in Muslim-majority countries would be comfortable with someone identifying as both Muslim and nonbinary, since said clerics tend to be extremely conservative on average.

However, I also know that Iran is far more accepting of transgender identities than one would think (see transgender rights in Iran). Plus, there are historical semi-precedents in Sunni regions (such as Albanian sworn virgins and bacha posh), so it’s not necessarily a good idea to assume that all (or even most) Muslims would reject Turner’s gender identity, even Muslims who are otherwise very socially conservative.

It’s hard to talk about Joe Biden’s Catholicism without mentioning that his pro-choice stance on abortion causes some friction with the church hierarchy (particularly its more conservative members). Islam doesn’t have a central authority in the same way (there is no “Muslim Vatican”, nor is there a widely-accepted caliph nowadays). So it’s harder to define what “the” Islamic position on gender issues is. That being said, I’m willing to bet there’s been at least some controversy among Muslims over whether a Muslim is allowed to also identify as n.b. LonelyBoy2012 (talk) 05:13, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

@LonelyBoy2012, LGBT people and Islam is probably the place for more general discussions of that type of thing. There would need to be a specific sources talking about Turner for inclusion here (WP:DUE) and such a section would need to comply with WP:BLP since Turner is a living person. TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 15:42, 16 June 2024 (UTC)