Talk:Matthew Webb/GA1

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Nominator: It is a wonderful world (talk · contribs) 11:08, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Rollinginhisgrave (talk · contribs) 13:07, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

I'll review this over the next few days :) Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 13:07, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Hey It is a wonderful world, not sure if you saw my comments here. Could you do a copyedit to make the prose more concise before I continue so I'm not repeating myself? Thanks Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 03:44, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Ah yes, my apologies. I assumed this page would be in my watchlist but it isn't. I'll copyedit today. It is a wonderful world (talk) 08:10, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

@Rollinginhisgrave I have condensed it significantly (-9000+) bytes. Let me know if you would like me to condense further. It is a wonderful world (talk) 14:06, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Prose and content

• The early life section can be cut right down. It is mostly sourced to a local area's heritage website. Street names can be cut, as the audience for the source is locals who know the streets, so it has significance for them, but not for Wikipedia readers. Or, it's relevant that he had thirteen siblings, the gender breakdown isn't.
• One story that Webb remembered well into adult life was Daniel in the lions' den. cut this.
• Webb was fearless and enjoyed cut this, or swap fearless for brave
• Webb also enjoyed painting pictures of animals and reading stories of the sea.
• He was particularly influenced by the book Old Jack by W. H. G. Kingston, which was one of his inspirations to become a seaman. make this more concise. You're repeating information.
• it was decided by him and his parents that Webb should leave school and join the Merchant Service,[15] and so he applied and was accepted active voice, a lot more concise
• In just his first few days on the ship, he felt homesick and hated the harsh living conditions, saying "I was hardly afloat before I wished myself back again to my comfortable home". the quote is too much.
• On the Conway, Webb was taught both traditional school classes (English, mathematics, history etc.) and specialised classes in nautical skills (map reading, astronomy, sailing etc.) much of this sentence is redundant, since you say that he did both of these as part of his daily routine. You can add the parentheses to that sentence and lose the rest.

Going to leave this here for now. I hope you can copyedit the article in light of this. I've read through some of the source "The Crossing", and I can see that the sources you're drawing from are popular and so there's a lot of extraneous information. But the prose needs to be concise to meet WP:GACR#1a. Good luck!

Sources

• Link The Crossing

Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 02:46, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Linked It is a wonderful world (talk) 14:11, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Restarting

Prose and content

• Born in Dawley, Shropshire Webb WP:GEOCOMMA

Fixed

• public subscription what is this?

Changed to "public donation"

• : In 1877 lowercase after colon. Reword this sentence to avoid the colon, use active voice, and put the dates at the end of clauses, i.e. In 1877, he completed a 40 mile swim from Gravesend to Woolwich along the Thames, → completing a 40 mile swim from Gravesend to Woolwich along the Thames in 1877,. You should also only use three examples maximum when summarizing his achievements here.

Fixed lowercase and dates at end of clauses, cut down to three examples. I was already in active voice though?

• Despite these swimming accomplishments

Fixed

• where Webb developed his swimming abilities you can merge this sentence with the previous with a comma.

Fixed

• The Webb family were Anglicans, so Webb was familiar with the stories of the Bible. you should just use Anglican as an adjective somewhere to describe the family, it doesn't need its own sentence.

Fixed

• from drowning in the Severn

Fixed

• right arm is there significance to it being on his right?

I kept this in because it was used to identify his body in Niagara, but I cut that bit so there is no need for it now.

• 12-year-old brother Thomas a different brother named Thomas? haha

Yeah so confusing

• gloss Aden, Varne Lightvessel

Not sure what you mean

• ". Rather, you should " reword this into the quote so it's not in wikivoice

Wasn't possible to reword into the quote, but I made got rid of "rather, you should" to make it more neutral.

• Webb had to stay with the Rathbone Brothers until his contract expired in 1865, but as soon as it ended this can be more concise; you have to stay with someone if you're in a contract with them, you don't need to spell this out

Condensed

• He even competed with a dog from Newfoundland to see who could swim the longest in the rough sea. After an hour, Webb was still swimming but the dog was exhausted and was rescued from the water. even is editorializing; format this as "in one anecdote"

Fixed

• Yet another another one of Webb's stunts it feels strange to describe this as a stunt

I agree, I removed this whole sentence to make it more concise

• until it was cut and the propeller was freed

Fixed

• , and said he had a flashback of his whole life cut

Fixed

• banded together more encyclopedic tone

Changed to "collaborated"

• J. B. Johnson redlink or cut

Redlinked, I have a draft on him in one of my sandboxes

• begin practising practice

Fixed

• Watson was surprised by Webb's return ambiguous whether return from Varne Lightvessel or Dover

Fixed

• and magnificent sweep of his ponderous legs cut

Fixed

• the elements euphemistic

Reworded sentence to make more concise and fix this

• Webb always said that Boyton was "an obvious fraud". rw to avoid "always said that"; too informal. Attribute a time if possible

Cut "always" source does not attribute time.

• On the 3 July

Fixed

• , with newspapers such as Bell's Life, Land and Water, The Daily News and The Globe all reporting on it cut

Fixed

• Webb's next swim was from Dover to Ramsgate do you know how far this is?

Twenty miles, added

• Despite heavy rain, he set off just before 10 a.m. with the tide in his favor but the rain against him.

Fixed

• by Dr. Henry Smith is he notable?

Nope, cut

• The report was once again printed in Land and Water, and was extremely detailed. what report?

Added "medical" to make it clear it was the medical report

• called Frank Buckland cut

Fixed

• The intent was to shield his eyes from the splashing of the salt water, however they only made the problem worse. this is a strange sentence; it is obvious they are an attempt to shield his eyes given they are goggles and it is unclear how they could make the problem worse

Cut this, replaced with "but they did not work". The source wasn't very clear, but I should have summarised more.

• Webb swam until he could not swim any longer, boarding the boat only fifteen minutes before the conditions became so bad that he would not have been able to. reword for more encyclopedic tone

Reworded to "Webb boarded the boat fifteen minutes before the weather conditions would have stopped him doing so"

• Captain Toms just call him Toms

Fixed all occurrences

• Lugger Ann with the rest of the crew from

Fixed

• the captain Pittock is "the" appropriate here?

Nope, removed it

• Webb began his second attempt by diving

Fixed

• If you're going to describe the crew in the swim section, and it's the same as it was in the plans, you can eliminate duplicate mentions in the planning section

Removed duplicates

• Cut the Rule Brittanica quote

Fixed

• After approximately 21 hours and 40 minutes is there a reason you use "approximately" here?

Changed to "After just under 22 hours". Sources were quite vague on this, but the DNB says specifically it was under 22 hours which is more precise.

• , completing the first successful cross-channel swim without artificial aid cut

Fixed

• Cut the return to England section in half
• Merge the attention sections into one.
• Mr R. H. Horne → Richard Henry Horne

Fixed

• The swimming career section does not need all these subsections, they can be merged, especially when they are only three sentences long.
• determined to try a second time the following year try again
• was exceedingly generous this is puffery. Attribute, explain or dampen
• had fallen into financial trouble this reads as euphemistic
• he brought his feats to America for the first time puffery again.
• correct the link to Manhattan Beach
• and arriving three hours early at Manhattan Beach the crew or Webb?
• and retired to bed euphemistic
• On August 22 elsewhere you use DDMMYYYY. Same with September 6, 14
• and Boyton got off to a very fast start. Unfortunately for Webb, he got a severe cramp which ended his race, while Boyton simply cruised to the finish. reword this, it is too informal
• indicating that he was probably biased cut or attribute (preferably latter)
• and Hartley later said he had felt like he was going to get cramps as he did more clarity on pronouns, ambiguous use of "he"
• Back in England on 27 April 1880 this is when he returned to England or when he got married? Either way, more formal.
• Webb made his health even worse don't blame him so much, just Webb's health worsened
• busied himself inventing new things this is quite vague, could you clarify?
• Driven by his worsening financial situation and desire for fame attribute

Removed for conciseness

• with Webb maintaining the intention to complete the stunt that many observers considered suicidal. too informal, the first part also feels redundant given the previous sentence referring to his intent to complete the stunt.

Removed for conciseness

• Beckwith and Watson tried give his full name given you've just referred to a different Beckwith.

Fixed

• Webb made an impromptu plan and called a press conference to explain it a plan for the swim or logistics? What is this referring to?

Removed for conciseness

• Webb's final conversation was with the boat operator Jack McCloy as he was rowed to the rapids. They conversed about Webb's family, his channel crossing and his swimming exhibitions since then. McCloy tried to dissuade him one final time, but Webb only waved, smiled and said "goodbye boy", before exiting the boat. cut this in half at least.

Significantly reduced

• Could you explain what the Whirlpool Rapids are so I can understand better what it means to swim through them?
• and then at 22:00 he stopped the search offering a $100 reward for whoever could find Webb's body awkward wording
• but Kyle told everyone who is everyone?
• You refer to Madeleine as "his wife" a lot, can you refer to her as Madeline?
• died from drowning drowned
• The body had a cut on the forehead, which caused people to assume he was knocked out on a submerged rock, and then died from drowning.[1] However, the autopsy revealed that the cut was made after his death, is it important to mention this brief speculation of what the cut said about his death?
• His widow and family were distraught upon hearing the news, and his widow said that she hadn't even entertained the idea that he might not complete it. cut this
• The Land and Water put shame on the risks put shame is very awkward wording
• In January, Webb's widow [returned to the burial site to rebury the body with a proper funeral.] reburied Webb with another funeral
• The Legacy#Family section can be cut. Perhaps the wife remarrying can be kept. (WP:NOTGENEOLOGY)
• mentioned how much good Webb had done by inspiring the whole country to go swimming, with the London Baths overflowing with people, and many others swimming in open bodies of water inappropriate use of wikivoice, attribute all this. MOS:SAID
• and many new swimming pools were opened with the Baths and Washhouses Act allowing local authorities to build them what is the relevance to this re; Webb?
• Shortly after Webb's death, several periodical swimming championships were started because of Webb?
• Webb expressed in his lifetime that he wanted to inspire more people to learn to swim, and even wrote his own book called The Art of Swimming,[1] though this was mostly written by Arthur Payne. and this impacted swimming?
• was interviewed. She spoke highly of Webb, and cut
• It took thirty-six years... four-way crossing by Sarah Thomas in 2019. I am unsure why this is in the section Legacy#Impact on swimming
• Some time after Webb's death, cut
• produced it around the same time that the Captain Webb Memorial in Dawley was unveiled cut
• The Baldwin Bros., a photography firm in Dawley, produced bring this to the start of the sentence, after "in 1909".
• Webb Crescent and the Captain... this paragraph doesn't have to repeat "are named after him"
• Cultural references unclear why this section isn't under Legacy
• NME single of the week could you expand on this?
• initially under the working title The Greatest Englishman, cut
• Justin Hardy redlink if passes GNG, else cut. Same with Jemma.

Suggestions

• When you're doing blockquotes, use Template:blockquote
• Use inflation for Webb bet £100
• that he should he should completely → him to
• 23rd October 1909 previously you have not used the rd/th etc after dates

Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 01:16, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Images

Some of these are unnecessary and don't add much as they don't illustrate the content: Rathbones, Stanhope, Tavern, Breaststroke, Thames

I removed them all except the Stanhope medal, since it provides a nice visualization of the medal Webb was given.

Captions

• Boat crew feeding Matthew Webb hot coffee

Fixed

• Looking downriver at the Niagara rapids and gorge, from the Whirlpool Rapids Bridge across the Niagara River is this part needed?

Removed

• Portrait of Captain Webb

Fixed

Neutral

This is the largest issue at the moment, hopefully with the comments above this will be addressed but I'll have another read through.

Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 07:18, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi Rollinginhisgrave (talk · contribs), thank you so much for your detailed review. It's clear I need to work a lot on the conciseness and neutrality of the article, which stems from me needing to improve my writing in these areas. The scale of improvement needed seems to be beyond the scope of a GAR timescale though.

Would you oppose closing the review, which would allow me time to:

• Address all the points properly
• Improve the conciseness and neutrality in my writing to GA standard
• Rewrite a lot of the article (especially later parts) with better writing skills

Then after all of that, I can submit a GAN again and hopefully the process would be shorter and easier for the reviewer, and the article will be better as a result. It is a wonderful world (talk) 09:31, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

I can of course do that. And you can just drop a note on my talk when you repost it to GAN. Thankyou for your work on this article. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 09:35, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.