Talk:Master of Fine Arts

2013 rekindling conversation

the thread working on this seems to have gone a bit cold. Work is neede on this important topic. To me, much more important that the various flavours of MFA are addressed here together. A lot of good comments about how what is meant for Writers different than for visual or performing or media arts. Therefore, I've added links to each of the national accredidation boards that have professional guidelines on the subject, as well as the premier professional societies that have guidekines that bolster these ideas. It will also be useful to expand into the mfa vs dma in music; i'm searching for relevant NASM documents. next, i will be looking into the internationalization issues, since it will be necesary to address ELIA http://www.elia-artschools.org/ as well as a bevy of sources on the bologna process. ▹ (pcatanese (talk) at 09:37 on March 16, 2013) —Preceding undated comment added 09:37, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

also, i've worked hard to remove all the links and references to specific MFA programs. This can only dilute the encyclopedic nature of the entry, and since it borders on advertisement, crosses the WP:NPOV - as opposed to references from professional societies and accredidation organizations, which exist to shepherd the standards for disciplines.▹ (pcatanese (talk) at 09:41 on March 16, 2013)

I'd like to believe that these edits will mmove the article towards removal of the needs more references / needs more cleanup, but i'm not ready to move those yet, since the references i've applied thus far are article-wide, and i would like to find references to back-up the other statements throughout the article that go beyond the four cornerstone documents i've provided. ▹ (pcatanese (talk) at 10:13 on March 16, 2013) —Preceding undated comment added 10:13, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

general notes

Arts Administration/ Arts Leadership/ Arts Management and Theatre Managment is recognized at several university's as an MFA degree. AAAE (Association of Arts Administration Educators) is, I believe, one of the best collections of univeristy programs in the field of arts managment. A simple search on google will return many examples. I believe it is up to the university to decide the classification of a program as an MA or MFA as AAAE is the closest thing that arts administration (and it's variants) has to serve for accreditating programs, and they don't do this yet (I have only conversation with a program director and numerous searches to verify this). Currently, a program must have three years of graduates, a director, published curriculum and be a full member to be listed on AAAE . Theatre Managment does have an organization that accredits programs NAST . However, as a personal comment, the lines between theatre management and Arts management (and some other programs) can blur as there can be a good deal of overlap. I believe some of this content is quite relevant to the article on MFA degrees and I didn't see an opportunity to edit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jonwgreer (talk • contribs) 19:48, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Added a link to the JHU Writing Seminars program, as it is one of the foremost in the nation.

Added a link for the CCA MFA Standards guidelines MFA 02:21, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

References

Plastic Arts

Plastic Arts strikes me as an odd term, but I think it may be a Britishism (I did a quick search on MFA Plastic Arts, and it mainly seems to be former British colonies that grant that degree). In the U.S. we don't really refer to plastic arts (I speak as both an artist and an art professor), we simply call it sculpture.

Even though there is such a thing as an MFA in Plastic Arts, I'm not sure it makes sense to specify it separately from Visual Arts. Plastic Arts is really a sub-category of Visual Arts (at least I believe that's the case, as an American art professor I'm mainly familiar with how we categorize things in the U.S.) and if the article specifically mentions "Plastic Arts," I don't see why it doesn't break out and mention all the visual art media: photography, ceramics, printmaking, painting, new media, film, etc.

If someone feels strongly that Plastic Arts needs to be listed, they should either list all the Visual Arts mediums or, I think, they should explain (here on the discussion page) why Plastic Arts is a medium within Visual Art, but is something that stands on it's own.

Incidentally, if you do disagree with me on this, consider Tapei University (which offers an MFA in Plastic Arts). As you can see here:

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:DCDzqctNu3MJ:exam.tnua.edu.tw/foreign/TNUA_admission_info_961219.doc+mfa+plastic+arts&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=us

the School of Fine Arts does offer a MFA in both Fine Arts and Plastic Arts, but their sibling relationship is akin to how the School of Theater Arts offers MFAs in Theater Studies, Theater Design, and Theater Performance. The article appropriately sums that up as an MFA in Theater Arts, in the same way I think it's right for Plastic Arts to be considered covered by Visual Arts. Simenzo (talk) 15:33, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Geographical scope

I am pretty sure this stuff only applies to the US, and it should say so, although I'm not expert enough to know – in Australia, however, where I live, it seems to be standard practice for art practitioners to do PhDs with some practical component as their highest degree. mgekelly 20:10, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the standard is still a terminal MFA in most areas I'm aware of, but there are PhDs in visual arts (studio) in Canada at UQAM in Montreal and the University of Western Ontario in London, Ontario, and a PhD available in studio, media arts and filmmaking at York University and Ryerson University (jointly) in Toronto.Freshacconci 18:37, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

MFA and PhD

MFA programs require 60-75hrs, it is a terminal degree, and requires 4 years of graduate courses beyond a MA that requires 25-35hrs. A PhD professor will instruct in the graduate area credentialed just as a MFA professor will instruct in the graduate area credentialed. MA graduates can apply to the MFA program. In some cases, a professor will have been accepted in a master level to be bumped straight to a MFA or PhD level. For example, a Zoology Professor might received a BA to jump over a master level straight into the PhD program. An Art Professor might receive a BA to enroll straight into a MFA program. In some cases, a MA graduate will be rejected from the terminal MFA program. A PhD candidate will research and present discoveries in a dissertation to a panel and a MFA candidates will research and present a thesis/dissertation to a panel. The graduate courses and area of focus will dictate what courses the MFA/PhD instructor are allowed to teach. IE: A PhD in Art History may not be able to instruct studio courses, but a MFA in Studio Art may be credentialed to teach both studio art AND art history depending on the graduate hours of study. Creative Research in the MFA normally requires research, written thesis, oral presentation, and a body of work. Institutions decide what is acceptable as a terminal degree as well as the institution's accrediting organization. A terminal degree of PhD and MFA allows the professor to hold chair of department, oversee programs, gain full professorship, and appointed tenure. A MA may not be appointed tenure-track or hold chair of a department. The MA is not the equal to a MFA. A MFA is a the highest level degree in that area with double the hours, which is why the MA is not a terminal degree and the MFA is a terminal degree. PhD is not equal to a EdD just as the EdD is not equal to DM, although all the said degrees are terminal degrees. A PhD, EdD, DM, and MFA will require above a master level 25-35 hrs. (posted by a tenured professor) 08 Sept 2018.

As an editor has indicated in the edit summary, an MFA is not the equivalent to a PhD. An MFA is a terminal degree, in that you do not require a further degree to teach university in your area of expertise, but the MFA is equal only to other masters degrees. Freshacconci 00:22, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

• • • The MFA is NOT 'only equal to other master’s degrees'. An MFA requires a minimum of 70 credits, the development of an original body of work which is defended before a board of faculty (oral exam) and a supporting written thesis or dissertation. These requirements hold true for any other PhD. A masters in comparison, requires 24 graduate credits and a thesis. See any University program description — Preceding unsigned comment added by Suzfau (talk • contribs) 16:49, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it's a master's degree and a terminal degree. It's true! JJL 14:04, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Unafortunatelly it is not. I'm sorry. MFA can teach undergraduate courses and master courses, but PhD courses depends on PhD level academics.

It is not exactly the same, as normally the quantity of credits demanded by a PhD mainly because your research can define structure for new researchs - what a MFA can't (for example, the methods used are settled in a MFA, but it can be the matter of study in the PhD level. I would suggest you to do what you are suggesting others to do: to look at University program descriptions. It has also a good book about research in graphic design and visual communication: Visual Communication - Rick Williams and Julianne Newton. If someone told you this in form to offer a MFA, it was not fair with you. If you are not from the area and expect some advantages to computing or engineering areas, I'm afraid you are not doing a "what we would say" exactly good thing. It depend if you are misinformed or bad intentioned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.162.1.62 (talk) 17:14, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

At the risk of original research, it might be worth pointing out that MFA were originally intended as a three year degree, but most MFA programs are now two years long. This watering down of the degree's rigor supports the idea that "MFAs are the new MA".Simenzo (talk) 17:14, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

The by-laws of the City University of New York make clear that CUNY recognizes the PhD as the terminal degree that establishes eligibility for a professorial rank. All others, including terminal degree holders in law and medicine and education and visual arts, must apply for a "doctoral equivalence" when seeking a professorship. See especially <http://www1.cuny.edu/abtcuny/trustees/bylaws/article11.html#11-1>. This fascination with credentialism is one of my common failings. It is perhaps indicative of the popularity of full-time work in academia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.23.210.212 (talk) 15:16, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Lists

This is becoming a set of lists, which WP is WP:NOT. I think we should remove all the lists of programs. JJL 14:04, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree. This isn't a directory for finding an MFA program. Freshacconci 15:18, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Developing doctorate degrees

"At present there are very few doctoral degree programs in these fields, but the DFA, or Doctor of Fine Arts, often awarded as an honorary degree, is being introduced as an earned degree at some schools (for instance, the the Yale School of Drama, for dramaturgy and dramatic criticism). Other universities are developing PhD programs in fields such as Creative Writing, Visual Arts and Theater."

If it is the case that the MFA used to be the highest degree you could get in these fields, but now schools are starting to establish earned DFA and Phd programs in these fields then those that will act as thesis advisors, teach Phd/DFA courses, etc will have a degree that is actually lower then the degree their students will eventually earn ? How is that apperent paradox handled ? This same thing actually applies to new fields, like for instance, what was the academic background of the thesis advisor for the thesis for the first Phd in Computer Science ? Obvously that person couldn't have had a Phd in Computer Science, by definition. It is just something that has bugged me for a long time Kristian Joensen 23:25, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

It's only a paradox if one assumes that a higher academic degree automatically equates to greater competence (both artistically and pedagogically). There are people with PhDs who are terrible professors and there are wonderful professors who only possess a bachelor's degree. A terminal degree is usually a requirement for professorship, but exceptions are made for people who have gained renown in their fields. When I was an undergraduate one of my professors only had a BA (he's now a full professor and the head of his department), and one of my current colleagues who is an associate professor has only a BFA. Simenzo (talk) 17:08, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

MFA's are recognized by more universities as higher level to the MA because there is better awareness to the differences of the two. As areas tend to set the standards of the discipline, only a small number of people are misinformed about what is a recognized terminal degree from the accrediting organization due to their lack of research or knowledge on the topic of terminal degrees. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:3BEF:25B0:5CB:ACE5:E066:603F (talk) 14:40, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

Many people with MFAs still hope that others will see it as a terminal degree, but more and more schools in the US now see it as another master's degree one can earn on the way to a PhD, and they tend to hire PhDs at their universities. The exceptions include authors, artists, and dramatists who have achieved significant renown beyond the academy. These figures still tend to get tenure-track jobs. Also, there are differences between hiring practices at small liberal arts colleges and big research universities. Extreme competition for tenured jobs has driven the development of doctoral programs of study in creative fields. Kristian, I'm afraid I've not answered your question, but suffice it to say that non-academic achievement has become less and less impressive as more and more authors, artists, and dramatists enter the fray. For example, it is not that unusual to find a person who has published two novels, yet has no doctoral degree, finding it difficult to obtain a secure, full-time job teaching in an English Department. Such is the academic arms race.Josh a brewer (talk) 17:10, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Differentiation Between Visual Arts and Writing

MFA programs in visual arts are very different than programs in writing. I propose separate articles for each, linked-to from this article, which would provide an overview of the degree independent of subject. -Cyberscribe 15:56, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Any further thoughts on differentiating the subject matter in separate articles? -Cyberscribe 18:56, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

This is not a bad idea. Unfortunately, there is currently only one notable source cited in this article, so the new articles would need to involve a good bit more research. In principle, though, I agree that these degrees are different enough that they could be distinguished on different pages. However, some people might simply prefer different sections (one each for visual arts, creative writing, and drama) within the current entry. Thoughts? I guess they're giving out MFAs in film now, too, eh?Josh a brewer (talk) 17:28, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Also, I'm pretty sure that this claim, which can be found in the entry as it now exists, is not true for "most" MFA programs in creative writing: "most MFA degree programs require 60-64 semester credits."Josh a brewer (talk) 18:44, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Global?

Is this just a US thing (in which case article should say so), or so they exist elsewhere? BobFromBrockley (talk) 01:08, 13 November 2021 (UTC)