Talk:Marvin Gaye/Archive 1

Archive 1

Here My Dear

Removed this first clause of sentence re: "Here My Dear"

Alimony payments

A court ruling in 1976 forced Gaye to record a new album and send the royalties to his ex-wife for missed alimony payments.

This isn't exactly right. Gaye agreed to pay alimony, and also agreed that he would pay the alimony from album royalties. However, the obligation to pay was not contingent on the royalties: it was just an agreed-upon means of payment. If the album didn't make money, he still would have had to pay.

For a fuller explanation, see snopes.com article and sources cited therein.

NPOV removal

But the memory and legend of this incredible Motown singer will forever be tainted by the very evils of the world Gaye himself sang and fought against, and paid the price for.

I removed the above for reasons of NPOV. Tuf-Kat 04:39, Jun 11, 2004 (UTC)

First to explore social and political topics

Gaye's What's Going On was not the first soul record to explore social and political topics--The Temptations beat him to it with their late-1960s/early-1970s string of "psychedelic soul" albums. Certainly, Gaye went deeper into the subject matter than the Tempts, but the Tempts (or should I say Norman Whitfield) were first. The article has been slightly revised as such. --b. Touch 02:28, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Number of Top 40 singles

I removed this:

By 1965, he had released 39 Top 40 songs for Motown.

How could Gaye have released 42 singles (39 the three early flops) in seven years on Motown? If this is true, we need a list to verify it. --b. Touch 18:02, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Amsterdam

Changed "Amsterdam, Netherlands" to "Ostend, Belgium." Gaye spent several years in Ostend, where he wrote "Sexual Healing". It is documented in the BBC documentary abour his life "Trouble Man", as well as numerous other places (for example [1]). He did not live in Amsterdam (or at least there's no record of it.)

--Deregnaucourt 21:39, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Father's clerical denomination

According to Marvin's brother Frankie in his book Marvin Gaye: My Brother (2003), Marvin Gay, Sr. was a pastor in the Seventh-day Adventist denomination. The previous version of this article had it as "House of God," but the link directed users to an article about a novel of the same name. I corrected the link and noted Frankie Gaye's book in the "Further Reading" section.

Frankie Gay's book doesn't mention the "House of God" at all? It's apparently an obscure sect, perhaps related to the Seventh-Day Adventists. --FuriousFreddy 01:09, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The "House of God," if it exists as a denomination or sect, has absolutely no relation to the Seventh-day Adventist Church. I would guess that the term "house of God" simply refers to a church building, or to Christianity as a whole. --Cromwellt|talk 15:12, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Odd....

I notice from a quick Google that www.onlineseats.com has a page allowing you to "Book Marvin Gaye tickets online", although the biog on the same page acknowleges that he died in 1984.

Oddly there are no concerts listed...

AndyHolyer 11:15, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Marvin Gaye died in the year '76, or '77. His father shot him in anger. Also, he was born with the surname Gay, but changed it to Gaye, for fear he might not get the respect and/or opportunity to be taken seriously.

MystiLilac (talk) 21:03, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Uh he died in 1984, not "'76 or '77". There's tons of news sources on that. His death date is not unknown. It's common knowledge. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 07:00, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Featured Music Project evaluation

Marvin Gaye has been evaluated according to the Featured Music Project criteria, most recently affirmed as of this revision. The article's most important issues are listed below. Since this evaluation, the article may have been improved.

The following areas need work to meet the criteria: Pictures - Format/Style - Comprehensiveness

The space below is for limited discussion on this article's prospects as a featured article candidate. Please take conversations to the article talk page.

• Pictures: Needs fair use rationales
• Format/Style: Add a summary under "Biography", trim see also and external links
• References: Probably needs more citations
• Comprehensiveness: Needs some expansion - relationship with his father is barely discussed, but probably should be, since it ended with his death

Death

Do we have references for the circumstances of his death? Capitalistroadster 06:33, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

All those books resting in the "References" section cover Gaye's murder in quite some detail. --FuriousFreddy 00:50, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

The article says Marvin, Sr., pleaded guilty to manslaughter, but the entry on his father says he pleaded no contest. Which was it? --joey 87.160.191.230 16:00, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Marvin Gaye and his father got into an argument pertaining to some paperwork from the bank, as well as to him living at home with his mother & father...his father became quite angry with him and pulled out a gun from his bedroom and while pointing it at Marvin, it went off. He was shot once in the chest. His father then pled guilty to his murder. The year of his murder was either in 1976 or 1977, not 1984. MystiLilac (talk) 21:32, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

I got rid of the word 'unlicensed' in the discription of the pistol used. For one thing what 'license' is the author refering to? For some reason people think you need some kind of license to purchase or own most commonly used firearms in the USA. That may be true in some limited jurisdictions, but I dont think its relevant to the situation. It will just confuse people or lead them to beleive something thats not true. I went back and looked at the source and the author mentions 'unregistered' also something of a misnomer, but the word 'unlicensed' doesnt appear as far as I can tell. The orignal source author makes reference to a 'cheap machine gun he kept in his bedroom' I dont even know what that means. For a 'true crime' author this guy cant seem to get basic facts nailed down. I would guess he has no idea of the relevant law, which is suprising given that he must write about law and firearms all the time. My point is, the source author has his head up his a**, so I simplified his story for him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.150.89.94 (talk) 14:37, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Sources

This: "His best records are still highly regarded, and he is often cited as one of the finest singers of his era." needs to be sourced. Who has said it? Aspern 21:02, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

GA Re-Review and In-line citations

Note: This article has a small number of in-line citations for an article of its size and subject content. Currently it would not pass criteria 2b.
Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. Agne 02:34, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

GA Review

The GA review on this page has ended, with a unanimous 3 to 0 consensus to delist. Primary concerns are low amount of references, (It's a long article folks, at least cover most of it) and large amounts of POV violations, especially in the legacy section. Review archived here: Wikipedia:Good articles/Disputes/Archive 8 Homestarmy 18:36, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Trivia & Myths Section

Should there be a trivia and myths section if there is only one statement? I'd recommend consolidating into rest of article or complete removal RegainTheTruth 01:40, 15 May 2007 (UTC) RegainTheTruth

Movies

Hey, I'm new to Wikipedia so I'm not quite sure how to edit articles. I'd like to note Marvin's movie roles (Chrome & Hot Leather and The Balland of Andy Crocker); Src: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0310848. They were both pretty bad movies, but Marvin Gaye dressed as a Green Beret and riding a motorcycle is interesting none the less.

Paving the way

"This achievement (along with those of contemporaries, Curtis Mayfield and George Clinton), would pave the way for the successes of later self-sufficient singer-songwriter-producers in African American music, such as Stevie Wonder, Luther Vandross, and Babyface."

Surely Stevie Wonder's struggles were contemporaneous with Marvin's? If this sentence is needed, perhaps Prince would be a more apposite example?

Mrcakey 13:12, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I have been thinking of changing that to that of Prince but I would have to think since Stevie admitted to being influenced by Marvin after What's Going On came out that that's why that statement is there in the first place, but I'll probably change that to something else to benefit Marvin.

BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 17:36, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

FAIR USE RATIONALE NEEDED!

A bot recently removed about 8 photos that are in need of fair use rationale. They can be found in the article's history log. Please help add rationale and insert them back into the article. Thanks. - DMCer (talk) 19:16, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

This article needs some improvement, LOL!!!

Now not only is there a problem with some images being on there and the sound files somehow being "corrupted", there's also citations and sources that is said to be needed. I need some help here! LOL BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 05:51, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Changes to the Marvin Gaye introduction and subsequent sections

I've proposed a change to the entire introduction of Marvin Gaye's "about" section of the Wikipedia article, so to speak.

Lemme know what you think:

Marvin Pentz Gay, Jr., better known as Marvin Gaye (April 2, 1939 - April 1, 1984) was an American singer-songwriter, drummer, pianist and instrumentalist. Starting his career as a member of the legendary doo-wop group The Moonglows in the late fifties, he ventured into a solo career shortly after the group disbanded in 1960 signing with the Tamla subsidiary of Motown Records. After a year as a session drummer, Marvin quickly rode up the ranks as the label's top-selling solo artist during the sixties. Due to numerous solo hits including "How Sweet It Is (To Be Loved By You)", "Ain't That Peculiar", "I Heard It Through the Grapevine" and his duet singles with singers such as Mary Wells and Tammi Terrell, he was crowned "The Prince of Motown".

Notable for fighting the hit-making, but creatively restrictive, Motown record-making process, in which performers and songwriters and record producers were generally kept in separate camps, Marvin was able to prove with albums like his groundbreaking 1971 album, What's Going On and his 1973 album, Let's Get It On, that he was able to produce his own form of musical expression without relying on the Motown system inspiring fellow Motown artists such as Stevie Wonder and Michael Jackson to do the same.

His mid-1970s work including the Let's Get It On and I Want You albums helped to influence the quiet storm, urban adult contemporary and slow jam genres. After a self-imposed European exile in the late seventies, Marvin returned to prominence briefly on the 1982 Grammy-winning hit, "Sexual Healing" and the Midnight Love album before his tragic death at the hands of his clergyman father on April 1, 1984.

He was posthumously inducted to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 1987.

Then I'll add these things in the "Legacy" section:

Gaye's career has been described as one that "spanned the entire history of rhythm and blues from fifties doo-wop to eighties contemporary soul." Critics have also stated that Gaye's musical output "signified the development of black music from raw rhythm and blues, through sophisticated soul to the political awareness of the 1970s and increased concentration on personal and sexual politics thereafter."

I could put in the mid paragraph of the section somewhere, lol. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 18:42, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

you

this information is wrong because if you didn't interview he than its wrong because other sites are giving me diffrent date like 1994 what going on came out and the album was live get your information corret —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.211.28.98 (talk) 00:29, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Marvin Gaye as Environmentalist

Someone removed the comment about Marvin Gaye being an environmentalist, without giving any justification. I think this is a self-evident fact from looking at the lyrics to the song Mercy Mercy Me (The Ecology). I think we should add this comment back, and I think it's important enough to be in the introduction to this page. Thoughts? Cazort (talk) 22:12, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Marvin Gaye's vocal range

It seems wrong. I've listened to many of his recordings and it seems more like Bb3-Eb5 than Bb4-Eb6. Can someone check this for me?75.142.54.211 (talk) 17:31, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Other Notes

As noted in the movie "Standing in the Shadow of Motown" (among other sources), Marvin Gaye was also a drummer, performing live work and touring with Jackie Wilson. He also did session work for other Motown artists, but was very likely NOT one of the main Motown session drummers.

x —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.231.195.24 (talk) 21:47, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Marvin did session work when he was initially not able to find success as his own singer. He had been playing the drums since he was in his father's church (alongside piano). He wasn't a main "session musician" but he did play the drums in other songs and for himself also. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 23:16, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Gay or Gaye?

In the first sentence, it's Gay. However, in the "Early Life" section, it's Gaye at his birth. Which is it?67.106.85.67 (talk) 04:33, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Surname at birth was 'Gay' (as was his father). He added the 'e' later.Catiline63 (talk) 01:05, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Yeah he was born Marvin Gay, Jr. His father never changed his surname to Gaye but Marvin's siblings (with the exception of Jeanne Gay), his wives, children and grandchildren all used Gaye with the 'e'. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 07:03, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

He added the E to his last name when he began recording albums. VH1 classic tv channel showed his music video on pop-up video explaining that he did it at that time. ~~majinsnake~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Majinsnake (talk • contribs) 22:07, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

I've added a convenience URL to the book citation (#1) supporting the name-change. Hopefully this will calm any controversy. It is a bit jarring, at first, to see "Gaye" in the "Early life" section, this lets "Gaye" describe the younger Marvin throughout the article. IMHO "younger Marvin" or "Marvin, Jr" might be better, leaving Gaye until that point in his career. Discuss? --Lexein (talk) 03:51, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Fixed. "Marvin" (and some instances of "young Marvin") were put in place of "Gaye" during the early years. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 03:35, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Unclear picture caption

Could someone with more knowledge than me correct the picture caption that says "Gaye is located in the right of a seated Fuqua." In the right? At the right, perhaps? But there are two people at his right. And is it really HIS right or the viewer's right? It's kind of confusing for the reader. GTGeek88 (talk) 21:28, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Someone wrote "fourth on the right of a seated Fuqua" so maybe that cleared it. Sorry for not getting the description right. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 03:03, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

This can be a GA (Good Article) page again

After so many years of being de-listed as a "Good Article", I think we need to nominate this again for being part of that list. I think it's good enough for being in the Good Article list but if you don't, you can always reply about what you think may help get it there if you don't like this article's revision. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 03:05, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

It is far from GA-status. You need to use in-line citations, as clearly explained on your talk page. Regards.--GoP_T^C_N 11:53, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Maybe I need help with all of that then. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 15:07, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

There is no specific referencing style. A very simple format is to write the author, the title of the publication and the page. Perhaps also add the year. Then put the full reference into a bibliography section. A good example is this article, currently at FAC. It uses just the author's name and the page, while the complete sources are listed in a separate section. I personally use {{sfn}}, as it links directly to the full reference. An example using the latter format is Otis Redding. Regards.--Kürbis (✔) 08:59, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

I got you now... unfortunately I don't have the actual books and when I do try to find the "pages" to some of the stuff, they're either cut off because of its limited previews or something similar to that. But I'll try on some of the sources. Thanks. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 23:55, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Reference #4 is a dead link

Footnote 4 points to a dead link — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.239.201.125 (talk) 19:55, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Possible copyright infringement

After a simple tool test, it seems that this article reads similar to gotradio.com. Here is the link. More reasonable, in my opinion, is the prospect that gotradio copied Wikipedia. In a scramble to get content, whoever manages the site may have copy/pasted whatever was a top search result. MgWd (talk)MgWd —Preceding undated comment added 04:06, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

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Section RE: Death

Not sure if anyone else feels this way, but I am wondering if the section titled "Death" might be better if moved towards the bottom of the page? It just feels like it is out of order to me? Just wanted to ask before I went moving things. Tattoodwaitress (talk) 22:46, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

Nomination of Portal:Marvin Gaye for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether Portal:Marvin Gaye is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The page will be discussed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Marvin Gaye until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the page during the discussion, including to improve the page to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the deletion notice from the top of the page. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 06:40, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Marvingaye-2 v1000.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 13:38, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Personal Life

I added some basics about Gaye's marriages and children, and linked to the separate Wikipedia article about his rather turbulent personal travails. My edits, which I spent considerable time putting together and properly sourcing, were undone with the contention that "a separate article addresses his personal life" (paraphrasing). Yes, it does, and I linked to it, but that is hardly reason to omit basic details of his personal life in the "personal life" section of his biography on Wikipedia.

‎If we have a "personal life" section, it ought to cover the basics of his personal life. The fact that it is covered more in depth in a separate Wikipedia article is no reason to skip it here. The information I added is very basic, and would belong in the "personal life" section of any Wikipedia biography. Matza Pizza (talk) 09:57, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

What you wrote is not really of encyclopedic value in this article, includes what is effectively personal commentary, and your sources are poor and incompletely formatted. So, this article is better as it was before. Please see if you gain any support on this page before attempting to re-add it. Thanks. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:44, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

I agree with Ghmyrtle. This gossip-style content is not of encyclopedic value, and cites of the New York Post have no place on Wikipedia, see WP:NYPOST: "It is A tabloid newspaper, editors criticise its lack of concern for fact-checking or corrections, including a number of examples of outright fabrication." Using unformatted bare urls as refs is not good, either. Carlstak (talk) 13:16, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Attempted biopics

Someone may want to add something regarding this project : Sexual Healing - IMDB, Playbill reference, "What happened to Jesse L. Martin’s Marvin Gaye Film?". The film was never completed. I heard through the grapevine that what was shot is one the assets of a bankrupt European producer and that the receiver of the bankrupcy would have made attempts to sell the project to someone to finish. 194.42.220.72 (talk) 15:09, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Showing "Marvin Gaye" at beginning of lead

Since "Marvin Gaye" was how the subject presented himself in the entertainment industry, that constitutes his stage name, and in my judgment, needs to presented in total at the beginning of the lead. This is how the world knew of him and thus WP:COMMONNAME applies to the article time, so I don't see why this doesn't apply to the lead as well. Using language like "who also spelled his surname as Gaye" appears to minimize his use of this name, like it's not key. We currently have two editors to one who prefer to use the text "better known as Marvin Gaye", which seems to be the common way to show stage names in articles. That the first name is repeated doesn't seem to be wrong in particular. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 22:53, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

SNUGGUMS, Jpgordon - If we can't figure out a way to resolve this, I would be open to an RFC and would accept the results. What do you both think? Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 22:56, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

No RFC is needed, and calling "Gaye" a stage name is misleading when that incorrectly implies he went by something not derived from legal identity. It's not like how Paul Hewson is known as Bono or the way Carlos Estevez uses the alias of Charlie Sheen. Both of those guys took on something completely different from their formal names unlike Marvin here. The fact that you still advocate for using first name more than once in opening sentence also confirms my suspicions that you simply don't care how repetitive that is. Regardless, the article title using the "e" spelling already makes it obvious what he was "better known as". SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 01:50, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

You have me correct on something - I actually do not care at all that the subject's first name is repeated. I also don't know your reason for objecting to it beyond you expressing a displeasure about it. Do you know of a guideline that is violated by the repeating? Also, more particular to the discussion here is that I don't think you are considering that the language you have chosen minimizes the name "Marvin Gaye" that he is known the world over for. It's not simply another surname for the subject - it's the name he put on his albums, performances, etc. It is indeed a stage name. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 01:57, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

On the contrary, going by an alternate spelling for albums, performances, or anything else isn't the same thing as using a very different name from your legal identity. You're still misusing the term "stage name" and shouldn't keep conflating this with mere spelling variations. As for the comment on how my change "minimizes" the informal spelling, that's a stretch when readers can figure out on their own how he used this along with "Gay" without an "e" attached by looking at the article title and seeing how similar the names are spelled. It's not like I tried to change the page's name to omit the "e". SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 02:18, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

"Marvin Gaye", no matter how you want to describe it, is a stage name. That a stage name cannot be similar to one's real name seems to have no basis, or at least you have not made a case based in a guideline. Also, this isn't about what the reader can figure out - it is the use of text that conveys an inaccuracy - that 'Gaye' is merely a different surname the subject used in the field of work they were famous for. "Marvin Gaye" is by far the predominant name he used in his career, so acting like it's just another name he used is insufficient. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 02:31, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

I've found one source saying he legally changed his name, but I don't really trust it, and there's no corroboration elsewhere. How did he sign checks? What did his driver's license say? Did he continue to use the name "Gay" at all, or did he drop it completely? --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 02:56, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

I was going by the assumption based on our article content and anything I've ever known about him that he used 'Gaye' for his act. If there was a legal name change, it seems we would have covered that by now. The article does show his death certificate with last name spelled "Gaye" but it also apparently misspells his middle name -- so those could be just inaccuracies. If we can find reliable sources that show he changed his name, that would certainly affect how we address this, but in the meantime, "better known as Marvin Gaye" seems to cover what we need for now. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 03:27, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Hey, look at what I found. His passport. In the name "Marvin Gaye". Signed "Marvin Gaye".[2]. So there's an answer to one of my questions; he used Gaye onstage and on official documents. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 05:20, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

In our own stage name article, it says "Some people take a stage name because their real name ... projects an undesired image". He did it (per this article) "to silence rumors of his sexuality, and to put more distance between himself and his father." Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 02:48, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

StefenTower is trying too hard to justify treating slight discrepancies as "stage names". It's also completely absurd to say it "conveys and inaccuracy" to go with "also spelled his surname as". The reality is this shows how multiple spellings were used. If the "Gaye is a stage name for Gay" logic were true, then Dave Matthews as an example would've been counted as one simply for the minor difference of using the informal "Dave" nickname for "David". See how absurd this would sound? Contrast it with someone like Shawn Carter who goes by Jay-Z, Yaneisha Franklin being known as Sasha Go Hard, Elizabeth Grant having the stage name Lana Del Ray, or (going closer to legal identity) Alicia Cook using the alias Alicia Keys. As for the passport bit Jpgordon mentioned, that helps support what I thought of him using it as an alternate spelling. This isn't simply something used for musical endeavors. It also shows he didn't drop the middle name when adopting the version with an E. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 06:11, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

First off, it seems you are frequently straying away from WP:AGF in our discussions, seemingly making accusations over such a minor matter as a single sentence in an article. I have not been cross toward you on this matter - it's OK to disagree without being disagreeable. I have only disagreed with your position, but you seem to be operating in attack mode. It's not the wiki way.

Anyway, whether Marvin Gaye is a stage name or what became his legal name, either way, that's how he's known to the general public. Treating it like it's a sometimes alternative surname belies the marquee aspect of only one name, Marvin Gaye. The way it is stated now gives a false impression to the reader. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 06:29, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

By the way, I will be starting an RFC because it does seem we're not getting any closer to an agreement, and we already practically have a third opinion by way of recent edits. So, RFC is the next step. With some fresh, cooler heads, we may be able to sort this all out. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 06:35, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

My stance wasn't supposed to come off as an attack. If it did, then I apologize. I either way couldn't fathom why you'd treat small differences for names as being bigger than they were. What I went with most certainly does NOT give "a false impression to the reader", though; the truth is I simply indicated that he used "Gay" both with and without an E. When it doesn't look like anything got altered for first/middle names, it felt most efficient to only list them once in opening sentence. I still find RFC to be unnecessary when that would just drag this out for longer than it needs to be. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 06:42, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

"is trying too hard to justify" reads "attack-y". :) I'm not arguing for fun here, as your responses seem to suggest. I am serious about my claim.

At any rate, we obviously keep talking past each other, and that's why an RFC would be a good idea. You are very focused on the aspect of the minor name difference between 'Gay' and 'Gaye'. I see that. But it's also not the point. The point is he is widely known as Marvin Gaye, not widely known as Marvin Pentz Gay Jr. or Marvin Gay. The current language makes these names appear equivalent, and they are decidedly not. He likely never got on the stage as "Marvin Gay". Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 06:51, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Why not simply use a format like Marvin Gaye (born Marvin Pentz Gay Jr. .....)  ?? Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:47, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

If the primary sources that have turned up are considered good enough to show he legally changed his name early in his career, then that solution makes perfect sense. (a more definitive legal name change document or secondary sources would seal the deal on that approach, I think.) However, if Marvin Gaye wasn't his legal name, then it's a performing name, although still the name by which he is famous, and the above discussion is about how to handle that. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 09:06, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Ghmyrtle, since he never legally dropped his middle name or suffix as far as I can tell, the format you propose would be misleading. The fact that memorial tributes for him were called "Marvin Gaye Jr. Memorial Scholarship Fund Day" and "Marvin P. Gaye Jr. Memorial Foundation" suggests those always remained part of his identity, as does having a son named Marvin III. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 13:05, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

The current version is unduly wordy. Another, better, option would be: Marvin Pentz Gay Jr. (April 2, 1939 – April 1, 1984), known professionally as Marvin Gaye... Perhaps the way forward is to list all the possible options and see which one commands most support and complies best with existing guidance. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:32, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

So does the fact that his passport says "MARVIN PENTZ GAYE" of any import here? It's pretty strong evidence that he presented himself that way to officaldom. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 15:14, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

The passport does help corroborate how the middle name stayed in place. Using "known professionally as" incorrectly implies he took on something not part of legal identity (it would be a stretch to say the E counts as a different name altogether), plus it needlessly repeats first name. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 15:19, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

I browsed newspapers.com last night and saw mentions of Gaye changing his name at the beginning of his career, but I never saw phrasing like "legally changed". But perhaps the combo of his passport and death certificate, along with secondary source mentions of "changed his name" would be good enough to suffice. So the question then becomes "How do we present this as his legal name?". At the very least, IMHO, it should not be presented as a secondary thing, especially as Marvin Gaye is the name he is widely known for. It should be the primary name. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 21:56, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Something like: Marvin Pentz Gaye Jr. (born Marvin Pentz Gay Jr.; April 2, 1939 – April 1, 1984), who performed as Marvin Gaye, was an American singer and songwriter. -- yes, it repeats name words, but I can't see how this approach is forbidden. Of course, if this can be stated with greater word economy, and also doesn't take away the prominence of his performing name, I can be fine with that. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 22:10, 23 February 2024 (UTC) Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 22:10, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Alternative: Marvin Pentz Gaye Jr. (April 2, 1939 – April 1, 1984), who performed as Marvin Gaye, was an American singer and songwriter. -- we could reserve display/discussion of birth name for the infobox and article prose. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 22:19, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I did see pieces like these discussing the fatal 1984 shooting which use E spelling for both Marvin Jr. and surprisingly Marvin Sr. as well. Not entirely sure whether that's a typo for the latter or a sign of him adopting the same spelling. If the E version was meant to be a permanent change (this would explain why Marvin III and his other kids also have it) and it's not a case of alternate usage akin to Michael Jackson using both "Joe" and the more formal "Joseph" as middle names for different things (which had been my impression before this thread began), then I recommend going with "Marvin Pentz Gaye Jr. (née Gay; April 2, 1939 – April 1, 1984)" when there's no credible evidence any first/middle name changes. It wouldn't downplay anything about him or have any name redundancies. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 23:06, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

"né Gay", of course. Or rather, né Gay. I'd like to see some evidence of him using "Gaye Jr.". --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 01:03, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

I thought it already was obvious that he did based on those links and the fact that posthumous tributes to him that I mentioned earlier (and discussed within "Awards and honors" section) use it in their titles. Furthermore, without him keeping the suffix, his namesake son couldn't possibly have had III as a suffix.

Oh yeah. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 04:33, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

So, does the above (most recent replies) mean we have agreement on writing the following: "Marvin Pentz Gaye Jr. (né Gay; April 2, 1939 – April 1, 1984), who performed as Marvin Gaye, was an American singer and songwriter."? Of course, we can fill in cites wherever needed in due course. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 20:30, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

No. We don't need the "who performed as" at all. That will be obvious by (a) the article title, (b) the infobox, and (c) every other reference in the article. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 00:15, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Well, the first sentence sets the tone, and if we're starting with effectively calling him Marvin Gaye Jr., that could throw off readers genuinely new to the topic. "who performed as Marvin Gaye" gives a primary explanation for the article title and infobox uses. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 00:18, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Hardly necessary. We don't say "Francis Albert Sinatra, who performed as Frank Sinatra". We don't say "John Joseph Nicholson, who performed as Jack Nicholson". --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 00:31, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

I certainly see your point but "Jr." creates the issue the lead should resolve. The subject never presented himself as "Jr." in the entertainment business. The examples you gave are straightaway name conversions. We don't have that in this case. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 00:37, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Why is that an issue at all? It doesn't seem to be a difficulty at Marlon Brando, Will Smith, Robert Redford, Burt Reynolds, Clint Eastwood, Bill Cosby... --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 01:15, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

In all honesty, his suffix isn't a problem at all and there's nothing wrong with the opening sentence maintaining that. Jpgordon's rationale for why we don't need the "who performed as" bit is 100% correct, and the examples given on Sinatra and Nicholson convey my exact thoughts for the matter. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 02:31, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

OK, for the sake of a solution for now, leave out that clause, and I reserve the right to RFC the whole lot (including Brando and the rest) later. I think that aspect is worth a community discussion on the grounds I have already laid out. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 02:52, 25 February 2024 (UTC)