Talk:Marrow (vegetable)

marrow - plant and fruit

Hi Mysterious Whisper,

Thanks for setting up the page. But the first sentence is inaccurate (and clunky):

"A vegetable marrow is a mature fruit of the same cultivars of Cucurbita pepo that, when picked immature, are called zucchini[1] (in Italy, North America, Australia and Germany) or courgette (in France, the British Isles, the Netherlands and New Zealand)."

A marrow is a plant as well as a fruit. And, from a British perspective, it sounds odd to define the marrow "backwards" from the modern names of its immature fruit.

How about:

"A marrow is a vegetable within the group Cucurbita pepo. To the consumer it is often better known by the Italian or French name given to its immature fruit:[1] zucchini (in North America, Australia and Germany) or courgette (in the British Isles, the Netherlands and New Zealand)."

I am not yet happy with my suggestion, as the mature fruit aspect is skipped. And no explanation why a vegetable is a fruit... Any ideas? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.43.38.242 (talk) 16:56, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

As you point out, zucchini is the most "modern" and common name (particularly from a worldwide perspective) for the plants that produce both zucchini and marrows, which is why I chose to define marrow in terms of zucchini, even though it's a bit anachronistic. But I see your point. How about:

"A marrow is a vegetable, the mature fruit of certain Cucurbita pepo cultivars. The immature fruits of the same cultivars^[1] are called zucchini (in North America, Australia and Germany) or courgette (in the British Isles, the Netherlands and New Zealand)."

As to "no explanation why a vegetable is a fruit", I've copied/paraphrased that part from zucchini (though I'd thought it was well known thanks to tomatoes that a botanical fruit can be a culinary vegetable). And I still don't like specifying geography without sources (mark my words, in five years time, half the edits to this article will have been to add or remove locations). ʍw 17:23, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

I like your version, please implement it. For the record, I added the geographic areas (Netherlands etc) after courgette and after zucchini to make absolutely clear that the zucchini/courgette distinction is a geographic distinction, not a cultivar distinction. I am therefore not fussed about the prospect of 5 years of edit wars pitching South African baby marrows against Scandinavian squash, and French French courgettes against French Canadian zucchini. Should be fun to watch, actually! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.43.38.242 (talk) 20:59, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Done. ʍw 21:07, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

The article does not say how to call the plant. I suggest merging this article with better written article zucchini.

Cultivars

The term marrow seems to be used in two different ways. One usage is for any large fruit of various cultivars such as the courgette cultivar. Hessayon appears to be using this meaning when he writes about courgettes, since he mentions the bush cultivar. I'll check in the latest edition of his book. In UK usage, the term "vegetable marrow" is normally restricted to the thick-skinned, striped variety, as sold in shops as "marrows" next the thin-skinned "courgettes". It is usual, at least here in northern England, to distinguish an overgrown courgette from a marrow, since the culinary usage is different. I have restored the BBC reference from gardening expert Gareth Austin (who may not be quite as well-known as Hessayon), and the ref from "The Gardener's Almanac", but made it clear that their usage may not be universal. I'll add a picture to illustrate the difference later. Dbfirs 11:29, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

I grow non-stripy trailing marrows/courgettes in the garden (S England) and cannot see a difference between the immature fruit and what is offered as courgettes in the shops. And I am not aware of a greengrocer nearby who would offer mature marrows. The thicker skin is a result of maturation, not of cultivar I think. Instead of gardening blogs, please provide a scientific botanical reference if you wish to disagree with Dr Hessayon - an academic. Nevertheless I look forward to your pictures. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.154.102.166 (talk) 12:07, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

No, courgettes do not mature into proper marrows in my experience. The seeds remain distributed and the skins do not thicken sufficiently. Overgrown courgettes do not make good marrow jam or marrow chutney. I'll try to find an academic reference, but from a botanical classification point of view, marrows and courgettes are the same species, just cultivar variants (like broccoli and cauliflower) that horticulturalists will know about. I have no dispute with Dr Hessayon's statement that courgettes are immature fruit of a bush marrow (using the word marrow in the botanical sense of Cucurbita pepo). I'll also find the latest version of his book to see if he clarifies his statement. Dbfirs 12:26, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

I've been looking for marrows for sale in supermarkets for months but haven't seen any recently. When I do, I'll take a photo to show what is sold as vegetable marrow in the UK. I agree that the word marrow is used for both the family and for a particular cultivar. Perhaps we should clarify this. Dbfirs 17:39, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

A section detailing the discrepancies across various sources would be beneficial. (Also, I meant "...would pass for a courgette", not marrow, in this edit summary.) ʍw 17:50, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Photos now added to illustrate British marrows. The problem is that "vegetable marrow", sold as "marrow" in British supermarkets, is just one cultivar of the plants described as "marrow" (marrow family) in botanical texts. How can we make this clearer? Dbfirs 14:32, 24 November 2016 (UTC)