Talk:Markus Persson/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Removal of splashes

@Masem: Microsoft made no comment over the removal of the splash text. Mojang just removed the splash text with no further comment. The source listed speculates about the reason, admitting Microsoft had not responded to it. It is pure speculation to include this information in this section implying the splash's removal was because of his tweets.  Nixinova  T  C  01:40, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Nearly every source that reported on the splash text removal associated with Notch's comments. It fits there even if we don't express the reason. --Masem (t) 01:46, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Every source states, basically, We've reached out to Microsoft for a statement as to why references to Notch have been removed. [...] It's unclear if this decision is related to his controversial comments.^[1] (the source in the article said the same) Its relation to his controversy is speculative.  Nixinova  T  C  01:50, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

The content didn't specify why it was done, just that it was done. Sources clearly have speculated why, but we're not casting that stone. -- ferret (talk) 01:52, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

It's being placed in the "Controversy over opinions" section, which why is this would be speculative.  Nixinova  T  C  01:57, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

It's not speculative, given the way it was reported. It happened shortly after Notch's comments, and while we are not saying "they were removed because of his comments", we are letting the timing of events, coupled with how the media reported on that, speak for itself. --Masem (t) 02:10, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Then it shouldn't be on the page. Placing this in that section gives the implication that it was caused by his opinions.  Nixinova  T  C  02:13, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

His name removal from Minecraft needs to be on this page; it is a notable change and got significant coverage. But there is no other reasonable place to put it. The only thing we can add is something like "While Microsoft did not comment on this change, several journalists considered it as response to Perrson's comments." --Masem (t) 03:39, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

It doesn't "need" to be on the page, though I'd agree that an additional comment would need to be there if this were to remain on the page.  Nixinova  T  C  04:38, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes, it actually does, if we are then subsequently talking about MS distancing itself from Notch at the 10th anniversary event. This is not some obscure thing covered by a few sources, and it clearly fits in the "story". --Masem (t) 04:46, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

It would fit in that section if Mojang/Microsoft has given a reason for the removal; they haven't, so conclusions shouldn't be made from it. It isn't some obscure thing, but it's just unsubstantiated gossip until reasoning is given (which won't happen).  Nixinova  T  C  05:27, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

What section should it be placed in then? There is no better section unless we make another one just for a single sentence going against WP:LAYOUT. —  HELLKNOWZ   ▎TALK 07:59, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 August 2019

Citations needed for the following phrase: "Microsoft eventually dissociated from Persson following comments on Persson's Twitter account which faced criticism for accusations of being racist, transphobic, homophobic, and sexist."

Maybe citation 40, 41 will be sufficient 87.79.71.3 (talk) 14:02, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Done  Nixinova  T  C  21:47, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Minor Edit Recommendation

Since the article is locked, I thought I should say this here. In the "controversies" section of this article, there is a grammatically incorrect sentence in the second paragraph, part of which is quoted here: "Persson was not invited to part of the event." This should either say "to be part of" or (even better) "to partake in" but not "to part of," which doesn't really make sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Will Joyce (talk • contribs) — Preceding undated comment added 10:18, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

 Done. —  HELLKNOWZ   ▎TALK 10:27, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 April 2020

Cited source for the phrase "Microsoft eventually dissociated from Persson following comments on his Twitter account which faced criticism for accusations of being racist, homophobic, and sexist." does not include language "accusations of being racist, homophobic, and sexist." The op-ed blog article only states "Notch has gained notoriety in recent times for the controversial and inflammatory tweets he's posted regarding race and gender, among other topics."

Change "Microsoft eventually dissociated from Persson following comments on his Twitter account which faced criticism for accusations of being racist, homophobic, and sexist." to "Microsoft eventually dissociated from Persson following controversial comments on his Twitter account which he posted regarding race and gender, among other topics." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Valkoun (talk • contribs) 15:35, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Done  Nixinova   T   C   05:36, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Mojang logo.svg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:54, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Controversies

Can I ask the point of having any controversies on Persson's wiki? The ones listed are not substantial at all. If the number of people viewing or complaining about something is the tool of measurement for being considered than surely those listed aren't even among the top 10% of Persson's most popular posts. For instance when Persson was implementing a new moon texture the community was literally split in half whether it should be round or square. I'm sure this story is on a Minecraft page somewhere, but as far as controversies go, this is probably the biggest of them all. An outstanding amount of people discussed these changes. Furthermore, everyone has the right to an opinion (even if it's a bad one). If you read Persson's personal blog there are surely many discussion topics that many people would disagree with. No one thought to choose a controversial programming topic? Such as whether or not voxel based games would become a future technology? That was a heated discussion in the day. The page doesn't describe Persson's technological contributions to computer programming either. Nor does the page describe his education. Are Wikipedia writers seriously this politically biased to choose a one sentence twitter post that doesn't describe why he believes what he does? It doesn't describe the limits of his opinion. Where it may apply, or where it may not. Persson seems to be a reasonable man that changes his opinions if someone has a wise and thoughtful argument. It's obvious he feels that the (I dunno what to call it) "anti-white" movement? has some flaws. Are you to suppose that this movement has done "nothing wrong"? Or better yet, have they done "everything right" and therefore voids all criticism? This is important as to properly establish a full story. Perhaps controversy is properly within scope, but it feels like each section of the whole article tells 0.1% of his story. Picking on his twitter rather than his blog where he explains his opinions in detail is a cowardly way to write articles. In 2014 this page explained a controversy about Electronic Arts. If that topic isn't suitable for this page now. Was it ever suitable? If not, then how is the controversy section ever suitable? "Starting around 2017, Persson began receiving criticism for political and social opinions he expressed on Twitter" This is wholly incorrect. Persson has been discussing with his fans on his blog and twitter since Minecraft development began (I didn't start following him until about infdev so I don't know about before then). He gave many political, technological, and religious opinions over the years that many disagree with. Or is the author assuming that only criticism from the "media" matters? Nobody cares about the media's opinion. They never followed Persson throughout the development of his game. They don't have the experience to have an opinion in these matters. Nor did the person who wrote that sentence know the "historical background".

If anything the controversy section tells readers what to believe about the negative side of Persson. This article doesn't quote another article that called Persson "lazy" when he didn't provide Minecraft updates fast enough. It doesn't call him "lazy" when he no longer had the effort to finish 0x10c. It describes the event in an unbiased manner and moves on (As it should). If anything, this page should criticize Microsoft for not recognizing the difference between personal opinion and business. To an extent: Minecraft was only popular during development due to the excitement of following the developers in the adventure of discovery. Notch gathered a community around himself. It's obvious that Microsoft only cares about the monetary value of Minecraft and never understood the relation between Notch and his community. Without Notch there is no Minecraft. Obviously he chose to leave Mojang before Microsoft decided to remove his name from the game. I'm simply trying to describe that this article barely touches the surface and can ask much deeper questions. How did Notch create and effect his community? How did he become popular? Do people like his social media personality? How did people challenge Persson's opinions during development (where it actually mattered) compared to now post-development. How did Notch's "wackyness" or creative ideas effect his platform? When I read a Biography about Chopin it described who he was as a person. It brought Chopin's story to life. Persson's story is full of interesting, creative, and fun details. Evidence from his blog: "and it [minecraft] absolutely exploded. Because I enjoy talking to the players and community, and possibly because I will gladly share my opinions on things"

Thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.255.181.151 (talk) 22:14, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

Sections is warranted and due, as multiple reliable secondary sources have covered the controversies. -- ferret (talk) 11:27, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

This page literally has two claims that are incorrect:

1) That Persson received no criticism on twitter before 2017

2) That Microsoft removed Persson’s name from the loading screens

Persson has never had his name or his handle on any of the loading screens. Second, we do not know if it was Microsoft or Jeb or dinnerbone that removed Notch’s handle from the SPLASH text file. That’s the little yellow text that shows up under the title in the main menu. It’s called “splash text”. Furthermore, it’s only conjecture that those lines were removed for political reasons. Maybe they wanted less text. Or perhaps they removed it because Persson doesn’t work on the game anymore. “Made by Notch” Well is it made by Notch anymore? There are multiple reasonable conclusions for this removal.

“Multiple reliable secondary sources”

These sources do not reliably present the facts. Both articles are biased. They tell the reader what to believe rather than presenting their information and letting the reader come to their own conclusions. For instance, “a tweet that was definitely not appropriate for the game’s many younger fans”. Social media is not a place for children. Nor is it the official Mojang or Minecraft twitter accounts. It’s his personal twitter account. If you caught your favourite children’s show actor in a bar swearing, you’d be surprised. But that actor has the right to speak his mind when he is not representing the show. These twitter posts were made two years after Persson left Mojang. How long does he represent the game that he no longer represents?

And finally, what are you trying to tell the reader with the political section? Like I said, there’s many better controversies we could use. There’s no inherent value to the second paragraph. Sweden is one of the most liberal societies, open to pretty much anything. He made a tweet that said “It’s okay to be white” so what? Why should the reader of this wiki care? I think this is totally out of the articles scope. This is not an article on racism or liberal politics. Why should anyone care about Persson’s opinion about anything? The reason the voxel controversy was so good was because he provided a logical and reasonable explanation into why he thought voxel-based games would never become the future. This is a meaningless one sentence twitter post that could be interpreted in a variety of ways.

Read the Bill O’Reilly and Donald Trump wiki-page. They are known for actually saying racist and controversial things every time their mouth opens. Neither page has a “controversies” section. Bill O’Reilly’s page explains his political views before the negative aspects of those views. Persson isn’t a TV personality, he’s just some guy that accidentally made a popular video game. Who cares that he like many other people state their opinions on a platform that encourages opinions?

--65.255.181.151 (talk) 06:46, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

I've removed the "starting in 2017", both as a valid "unsupported claim" and an unnecessity. As to the rest, I'm not going to argue about "the sources are biased". They are reliable sources in the eyes of Wikipedia that have been repeatedly discussed and vetted. -- ferret (talk) 12:20, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Thanks! I read the source for the "from the game's loading screens" statement. Nowhere does the source state that Persson's name was removed from the loading screen. It specifically says "the game’s splash screens have removed all mention of Minecraft’s creator Markus “Notch” Persson." Then it explains what a splash screen is. Technically it's a menu screen not a splash screen, but it's accurate enough. "Loading screen" is simply incorrect. A menu screen is not a loading screen. Even putting "from the game's menu" is sufficiently accurate. I doubt readers care about the details of the "splash text" and how it works.

I still question what you're trying to tell the reader with the controversy section. The first and second paragraph only have one source each which is not "multiple sources" as you suggest. Which I believe are different issues and do not relate to each other; they are not the same event. Just because a source exists doesn't warrant its use in an article. Read Bill Maher's wiki too. His article contains a politics section where his political beliefs are explained. For instance "He [Bill Maher] has referred to himself as a "9/11 liberal", noting that his formerly liberal view of Islam changed as a result of the attacks on September 11, 2001, and he differentiates himself from liberals of the opinion that all religions are alike." This article doesn't just state something racist that Bill said. It explains his political view, and why he believes it. Persson's article doesn't have an argument in the controversies section. It's not explaining Persson's political opinion and why it's good or bad. it's just stating something he said. If the article said "Persson believes X because of X reason" then it would warrant the opposing opinion of his critics. Furthermore, the following quotations have no sources: "made up metric." "tone-deaf" and "ignorant". If I wrote that in a paper I'd be thrown out of my university for plagiarism. It seems the main issue for this article is that few sources exist that explain Persson and his political beliefs. The corpus for that is mainly his blog and twitter. Wikipedia's rules do state that "...questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves..." (including activities). I think it would be acceptable to select a few interesting things about Persson's beliefs via his blog so that readers could gain an understanding of him, rather than just "Here's a couple off-coloured things that he said". Then you'll have created a substantiated vision and argument of who he is.

-- 65.255.181.151 (talk) 21:15, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

• I have corrected this information. "Microsoft" didn't remove it; they have no say in the development of Minecraft. And it is the menu screen not the loading screen. Also, the sentence was worded too strongly before.  Nixinova  T  C  03:12, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

This section should also inform the reader that Persson has endorsed QAnon (see, e.g. https://www.newsweek.com/qanon-conspiracy-minecraft-creator-notch-markus-persson-1351465 ). --88.70.146.158 (talk) 11:50, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 September 2020

Citation needed for nationality being "Naturalized American" and the quote "is a Swedish-born American" in the first paragraph. 47.154.85.151 (talk) 16:15, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

Have removed – Thjarkur (talk) 16:25, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

Maybe?

So I was wondering if the last sentence of the first paragraph could be considered original research or opinion. I mean, it's obvious that those are the things that he is best known for, but I'm new to Wikipedia and don't quite know the rules yet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gargantuan Brain (talk • contribs) 22:29, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Are you talking about He is best known for creating the sandbox video game Minecraft and for founding the video game company Mojang in 2009. or Microsoft eventually dissociated from Persson following controversial comments regarding topics such as race and gender on his Twitter account.? Note that the latter has a citation that directly supports this claim, which makes it neither original research nor an opinion. SWinxy (talk) 22:33, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Swinxy (talk) I am speaking of the He is best known... I think that there should be some article or something like that, maybe a mini-biography online or perhaps, if he has one, a personal website's mini-autobiography (this may not be suitable considering that it is Persson's description of himself)? Gargantuan Brain (talk) 18:03, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Minor Fix Needed

On the side bar it says that he is the one who created Mojang, even though he was just a Co-creator. We should change "created" to "co-created" — Preceding unsigned comment added by DraconicLexon (talk • contribs) 17:19, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Anti Semitism

There have been allegations of the villagers in Minecraft being an antisemitic portrayal of Jewish people, which should be added to the controversy section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cassie Schebel (talk • contribs) 14:49, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Do you have any reliable sources covering this? The only allegations of anti-Semitism within the game itself I've been able to find are all speculation on social media, which generally isn't going to cut it, especially when deciding how much weight to give to a particular controversy. The only news article I found about any sort of politics surrounding Minecraft villagers was this tongue-in-cheek NYT blogpost which predates the Notch controversy and (other than a brief allusion to "medieval serfs") does not explicitly compare the villagers to any specific real-life group of people, or stereotype thereof. Ionmars10 (talk) 02:49, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 March 2022

Please change live to dead in <ref>{{cite web|url=http://notch.tumblr.com/post/113753678/turning-30-is-scary|title=Turning 30 is scary.|work=Tumblr|first=Markus|last=Persson|date=29 May 2009|access-date=22 February 2011|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20101212015514/http://notch.tumblr.com/post/113753678/turning-30-is-scary|archive-date=12 December 2010|url-status=live}}</ref>. 207.81.187.41 (talk) 18:17, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

 Done ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:49, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Inadequate sources in the "Controversies" section

This is my first Wikipedia edit (request), so I apologize if I've messed up the formatting or something similar.

The quote: "he tweeted in support of a heterosexual pride day, calling opponents to the idea "cunts" and stating that they "deserve to be shot".[51]" from the "Controversies" section of this page does not seem to have a adequate source. The provided reference is to a news article which in turn references a tweet which includes a screenshot of the quote. The tweet appears to be from a twitter user of no particular note. It received little attention (10 likes) and no verification. This does not seem like a trustworthy source. I've tried to find an archived version of Notch's tweet but have only found other links to the tweet in question. From WP:RS/QUOTE: "To ensure accuracy, the text of quoted material is best taken from (and cited to) the original source being quoted. If this is not possible, then the text may be taken from a reliable secondary source (ideally one that includes a citation to the original).". The relevant part being "a reliable secondary source". Other (controversial) tweets of this, e.g. "It's OK to be white", are sourced with an article either linking to the tweet or an archive of the tweet, but this one in particular fails to meet this standard. I propose replacing the reference with an archive of the tweet or removing it if one cannot be found. In the form of a "please change X to Y": Please change "Later in June 2017, he tweeted in support of a heterosexual pride day, calling opponents to the idea "cunts" and stating that they "deserve to be shot".[51]" to "", or please change the source for the aforementioned sentence to a reference to the tweet in question.

Thank you for your time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Swausinator (talk • contribs) — Preceding undated comment added 19:08, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

 Done I have found a RS that has the quote directly (not showing the tweet but acknowledging it was deleted) that supports the quote --Masem (t) 19:20, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Hey, this is certainly an improvement, but unfortunately there is still no definitive source. It seems likely that the Arcs Technica article is referencing the tweet made by the random twitter user. I think that a source for this claim should be held to the same standards as the other tweets sourced on this wiki page. :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Swausinator (talk • contribs) — Preceding undated comment added 00:11, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Ars Technica says "In 2017, he tweeted, "If you're against the concept of a #HeterosexualPrideDay, you're a complete fucking cunt and deserve to be shot," though this, too, was subsequently deleted." Ars Technica is a reliable source, and we can take their word that that was the text of the original tweet, there's nothing there to suggest they got it from a middle man. --Masem (t) 00:28, 10 April 2022 (UTC)