Talk:Mariupol theatre airstrike

Merge?

Should this content be kept separate from Donetsk Regional Drama Theatre? Thoughts on merging? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 13:10, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

The theatre article itself needs development. Remember that the Ukraine Wikimedia cultural month was planned for around this time long ago, and there's quite likely a lot more prose text that should be written about notable aspects of the theatre, expanding from what is currently just a timeline. Chances are that the theatre itself will be rebuilt once the invasion is over. The bombing itself is most likely a war crime, so it's a different type of encyclopedia topic to the theatre itself. Merging the pair would be not be the best way of trying to avoid geographical bias in Wikipedia - compare to similar Wikipedia articles on war crimes or terrorist attacks on cultural centres in, say, France or the US, and the articles on the centres (theatres, cinemas, night clubs) themselves. Boud (talk) 16:42, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

I agree, the pages can have a different emphasis and different content. The article on the theatre itself can contain a summary of the airstrike, while this page itself can cover it in more detail. Richard Nevell (talk) 22:01, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

@Boud and Richard Nevell: Final toll is zero deaths and one injured person (source: here), so it does not seem to be a war crime. I think that the content can be merged to main page Donetsk Academic Regional Drama Theater.--Holapaco77 (talk) 12:44, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Flagrantly targeting civilian infrastructure with no evidence of military necessity is also a war crime, with or without civilian deaths. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:48, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Given the source refers to 'initial information' it is premature to describe it as the 'final toll', especially since rescue efforts are still ongoing. Richard Nevell (talk) 13:01, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Iskandar323 is correct. And as Richard Nevell said, from the Reuters ref: "According to our data there are still more than 1,300 people there who are in these basements, in that bomb shelter," Denisova said, referring to underground shelters below the theatre. Digging through the rubble to check that there were none of the 1300 or so people in the main part of the theatre is also going to take some time. Boud (talk) 20:25, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes, this is easily notable enough for its own article, regardless of its death toll. Jim Michael (talk) 20:29, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

That aged well. 2601:85:C101:C9D0:C9CC:C371:A389:F64C (talk) 21:20, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Shelling

Did the Ukrainians shelled the building? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.248.249.243 (talk) 06:58, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

No, it is an Russian war against Ukraine, so the Ukrainians are the ones who got shelled by attackers. --2A05:DCC0:0:1B00:B1BF:B05A:1317:1B00 (talk) 14:31, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Why no updates?

Did the surrounding territory fall to Russians? If not, why don't we get new statistics about rescued and deceased people? Or negatiations about local ceasefire for rescue operation or anything?5.173.97.107 (talk) 12:02, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

Any reality to the emerging conspiracy theory?

See this: https://t.me/DmitriySteshin/4246 How is this explained? Seems like a legit post several days of the attack claiming that it will be staged by Azov. Might be worth a mention in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.57.73.2 (talk) 23:13, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Here is the article from Max Blumenthal who promotes this theory: https://thegrayzone.com/2022/03/18/bombing-mariupol-theater-ukrainian-azov-nato-intervention/

And here is an examination which looks at that conspiracy theory: https://twitter.com/neil_abrams/status/1506394055672213505 2003:CB:1715:F470:4C03:71FD:B0F0:B928 (talk) 11:41, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Another tweet 2 days before catastrophe: https://twitter.com/elenaevdokimov7/status/1502875319170387968 — Preceding unsigned comment added by MonolitZero (talk • contribs) 05:17, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

There are multiple interviews of Maliupol residents from Patrick Lancaster, independent journalist, that support various "Russian-friendly" interpretations. They range from that nobody was hurt, that they "heard" that Azov blew it up. However, a Youtube channel is not a wikipedia-worthy source I guess? Also his videos are very long, and to specify where the witnesses provide their accounts would count as "original research". Lancaster can probably be accused for selection bias in his interviews. Postdeborinite (talk) 16:20, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

There's a Patrick Lancaster clip with him standing at a shell hole at the foot of the Russia-facing wall of the Donetsk library, claiming the firing came from the Ukranian side. He MUST have known that's impossible. Anyway. Just adding to "YouTube channels not a worth source". 195.48.32.156 (talk) 12:57, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Apparent Russian witness here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2CVUlojD80

12:30, 5 April 2022 (UTC)~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.182.142.43 (talk)

Number of Dead?

The article states cirka 300 dead. It is somewhat contentious, as there were conflicting initial reports from the Kiev Independent newspaper with 0 causalties (https://www.newsweek.com/miracle-survivors-mariupol-theater-ukraine-putin-1688926), and the number 300 comes from Ukrainian government sources. Should it be changed to 0-300 dead, or "unknown" ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Postdeborinite (talk • contribs)

I think it's uncertain who has been in control of this territory at the point of massacre so there was no organized attempts to recover and count the bodies. The city is under siege right now. I don't think anyone would try to do that risking being shelled. I also think there is no heavy machinery around to get rid of rubbles to make the job easier.--AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 10:22, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

It has now been changed to "up to 300", sounds fair. Postdeborinite (talk) 21:29, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

Still no follow-ups from citable sources AFAIK. It is apparently weird that there is confirmed 1 wounded and up to 300 dead. The ratio between wounded and dead must be much smaller. Postdeborinite (talk) 16:14, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/07/ukraine-escape-from-mariupol-man-swam-eussian-terror?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

This is the first well-known media, to my knowledge, that post eye witness reports, with an assessment of "dozens of bodies". https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/07/ukraine-escape-from-mariupol-man-swam-eussian-terror?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter Postdeborinite (talk) 05:24, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Again, the same eyewitness who was interviewed in Lviv reiterates her story, this time for NY times. She was in the upper part of the theatre, and she saw "so many dead bodies" when she evacuated. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/09/world/europe/mariupol-theater-ukraine.html Postdeborinite (talk) 14:55, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

https://www.channel4.com/news/the-voices-of-mariupol-first-hand-accounts-from-those-who-escaped

Another news source from 14 April. This is an eyewitness of 2 dead people, but no quantification. Postdeborinite (talk) 07:50, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Now there is a quite substantiated source! https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-business-europe-donetsk-0e361756c6acc287e8974103913abfc6 . Estimate: 600 dead (does not mention injured), no evidence for "false flag attack". I have seen several individual accounts by ppl interviewed by Lancaster that contradicts this, but nevertheless it is by far the best source so far.

Second that https://apnews.com/article/Russia-ukraine-war-mariupol-theater-c321a196fbd568899841b506afcac7a1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.128.225.130 (talk) 00:52, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Can someone put it in, I have trouble understanding how to cite in wikipedia ? Thanks! Postdeborinite (talk) 15:41, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Something to add to the article

I think Alexandra Skochilenko's story ought to be mentioned here. It has a very direct connection, and it is notable enough. - EvgeniyErmolov (talk) 15:44, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Amnesty International report

On 30 June Amnesty International published a detailed report on the airstrike: [1]. Here an account of the report by NPR: [2]. Main points: 1) Most definitely a war crime, and probably a deliberate attack on a civilian target by the Russian army. They didn't strike it by mistake and they knew that there was no significant military activity going on there 2) The attack was almost certainly carried out by Russian fighter aircraft, which dropped two 500kg bombs 3) The number of casualties is significantly smaller than initially reported: "Amnesty International believes that at least a dozen people died in the attack, but also that it is likely that many additional fatalities remain unreported". I've just updated the info on War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine: [3] Gitz (talk) (contribs) 15:52, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Links to Russian sources

When mentioning a claim by Russia I think the encyclopedia should include a link to the original Russian source and not to a western source reporting what Russia claims. I am referring to "Russia first claimed that the reason the theatre was bombed was because it was being used as a base by the Ukrainian military, and then denied the allegations and instead accused the Azov Battalion of blowing up the building." No original Russian reference is given for either claim. Dianelos (talk) 13:35, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

The perpetrator has been identified

https://informnapalm.org/en/hacking-75387-960-aviation-regiment/ 119.74.173.229 (talk) 03:18, 30 March 2023 (UTC)