Talk:Marino Sanuto the Elder

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The article suggests that this man lived for well over a century. Are there any better dates? Jaraalbe 21:24, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Better picture

I would love to see a better copy of the Mid-east map uploaded to commons; does anyone know if we can use the map here?

Also, does anyone know if there is a modern academic examination of the map? That would be extremely useful. I´m thinking of something along the line of Karmon, Y. (1960). "An Analysis of Jacotin's Map of Palestine". Huldra (talk) 20:46, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Even though that page has a "copyright notice", the image is in the public domain. Faithful reproductions of public domain images are not copyrightable unless there is some significant creative addition to it. I will upload a copy to Commons soon. I don't find any detailed analysis, though this paper (in your mailbox soon) and this book have some information about it. Zero^talk 10:22, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

And this. Zero^talk 10:27, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

File:SanudoHolyLandMap.jpg. Zero^talk 10:36, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Excellent, thanks. It seems (from that last article) that his work did not get fully translated into English until 2009; lets hope a detailed discussion of the map follows.

I got interested in this map over Beitin: it was described (by eyewitnesses) as sacked and fully destroyed, then abandoned in the times of Saladin (1197). Though it appears, in the correct place, as a village, in this Sanuto/Pietro Vesconte map from around 1320. I wonder how much they based their map on older sources, and how much they tried to make it "up to date"? I.o.w. when was Beitin resettled? (It is not in the 1596-daftar). Cheers, Huldra (talk) 20:54, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 21 October 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. Mixed consensus, maintaining status quo. With two relists already commenced, I find no reason to relist again. (non-admin closure) Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 20:51, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

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Marino Sanuto the Elder → Marino Sanudo Torsello – "Sanudo" is a more common spelling than "Sanuto" and "Torsello" more common than "the Elder". See this ngram. Srnec (talk) 22:21, 21 October 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 17:19, 30 October 2022 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 16:54, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose Weird. I've worked on Vesconte & portolan stuff for years, and come across him quite frequently, perhaps a hundred or so times (granted, many times in Italian works). But I don't recall ever seeing him referred to by the name "Marino Sanudo Torsello". Only "Marino Sanuto" or "Sanuto the Elder". Completely surprised. Walrasiad (talk) 23:37, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose but not strongly. Actually he is referred to as Marino Sanudo Torsello in many places (search for that at Scholar). In this book (note the title) it is explained that "From the mid-nineteenth century he was often dubbed il Vecchio or the Elder to distinguish him from his later namesake.", in reference to a different Marino Sanudo who lived later. I find that the existing title is slightly more common but not overwhelmingly so, which is why my opposition to the change is weak. The sources seem split almost evenly between Sanudo and Sanuto. The same book calls him Sanudo throughout but notes that he called himself "Marinus Sanuto dictus Torsellus", which is Latin, so maybe Sanudo vs Sanuto is an Italian vs Latin thing. All major variations should be mentioned, with suitable redirs. Zero^talk 00:04, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
• Support per COMMONNAME. I was about to close this as not moved but then looked at the ngrams chart linked by the nom. It's persuasive. I see no reason to discount it, much less dismiss it entirely, in anything offered in opposition here. --В²C ☎ 06:31, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Even split in opinions on the quality of evidence for a WP:COMMONNAME. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 17:19, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Support, sort of. Looking through reliable sources, it seems there is a definite edge to Sanudo. Not many append (or even mention) Torsello or the Elder. My first choice would be Marino Sanudo. Second choice would be Marino Sanudo Torsello. Glendoremus (talk) 19:49, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 18:42, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.