Talk:Marie Curie/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: TimothyRias (talk · contribs) 13:51, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Comments

I'll add comments here as I go through the article. Note that some of these may not be relevant for the GA criteria.TR 13:51, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

• Per WP:LEDE the lede should have at most 4 paragraphs. (The article currently has 5).TR 14:42, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
• While an actively loyal French citizen What does it mean to be "actively loyal"? (Suggest dropping the adverb).TR 14:42, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
• Her daughter Irène Joliot-Curie and son-in-law, Frédéric Joliot-Curie, would similarly share a Nobel Prize. Is this really lede material?TR 14:42, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
• ''She was the first woman to win a Nobel Prize, the only woman to date to win in two fields, and the only person to win in multiple sciences. Needs a reference (for example [1]). Also the last clause may need to be clarified as saying that she won in two distinct sciences. (in contrast to Bardeen and Sanger).TR 07:50, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

All fixed through those edits. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:18, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Looks good.TR 09:11, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Biography

• Per WP:MOSIMAGE a (sub)section should never start with a left floated image.TR 14:42, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
• most recent of which was the January Uprising I assume most readers will be as ignorant of Polish history as I am. A year would be useful.TR 14:42, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
• This condemned each subsequent generation, including that of Maria, her elder sisters and her brother, to a difficult struggle to get ahead in life. This suggests that Maria's children and grand-children, etc. also had a difficult struggle to get ahead in life, because of this. That seems unlikely. (Replace "each" with "the"?)TR 14:42, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
• where he taught the young Bolesław Prus. Suggest adding some words to give context to who this was. (e.g. "where he taught the young author Bolesław Prus" or something of the like.)TR 14:42, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Above issues addressed with [2]. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:28, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

• and forced to take lower paying posts Was he talking multiple lower posts or should post be singular?TR 14:42, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

The source is clear it was "a series of" such posts. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:40, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

• She also suffered from tuberculosis and died when Maria was twelve. Reads a little Awkward, suggest: "She died from tuberculosis when Maria was twelve."TR 14:42, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
• Maria began attending the boarding school that her mother had operated while she was well 1)In the previous paragraph, we were told that Maria's mother quit when Maria was born, not because she was ill. 2)"while she was well"-> "before she was ill" TR 14:42, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Actually the closer reading of the ref (PSB) does not suggest that her mother operated this pension; I've rewritten the text to not deviate from the ref. [3] --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:40, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

• ''with a gold medal. What does this mean? (Again do not assume the audience is familiar with the Polish education system)TR 14:42, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

I am afraid I am as puzzled as you, we had no gold medals when I finished my primary education in the 90s. However, all sources I find simply state that fact, nothing more. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:40, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

OK, fair enough. Some clarification of this would be great if the article is nominated for FA.TR 09:33, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• Due to possible depression This is rather vague. What does the qualification "possible" mean. Wasn't sure? Aren't we sure?TR 14:42, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps you'd suggest a rewording. PSB does not discuss this (it only talks about a year-long rest at the countryside), the depression is sourced to [4]: "After graduating at 15, Manya suffered a collapse that doctors thought was due to fatigue or "nervous" problems -- today it might be diagnosed as depression. ". --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:40, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Maybe something along the line, "After a collapse, possibly due to depression, she spent ..."?TR 09:33, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Changed to that. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:03, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• "governess" is wikilinked twice. (I think the second "governess" can be omitted altogether)TR 14:42, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Fixed.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:40, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

• While working for the latter family, she fell in love with their son, Kazimierz Żorawski, which was reciprocated by this future eminent mathematician. Awkward sentence suggest rephrasing.TR 14:42, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Is [5] better? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:40, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes.TR 09:49, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• Skłodowska studied during the day and tutored in the evenings, Is there a particular reason why the article switches from calling her "Maria" to calling her "Skłodowska"?TR 14:42, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

I tied to fix this with [6]. Note that the article is titled Marie, not Maria. After the "New Life in Paris", in, the article now switches from Maria to Marie. This fits with her moving to France; I hope it's ok with MoS. Alternatively, we could replace most instances of Maria with Marie, although I don't think it's right to call her that when talking about her childhood. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 20:10, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

I see the problem, and I am not entirely sure what the standard solution to this should be according to the MoS. (I think the default is the use to full name at the first mention and then only use the last name in the rest of the article, but that does not feel right in this situation.) Maybe the most elegant solution to this would be to call her "Maria" in the "Early years" section and then in the first paragraph of the "New life" section write: "In Paris, Maria (or Marie as she would be known in France) briefly found shelter...". From that point just use "Marie". This makes it clear that this change in usage in the article is intentional instead of an accident. There maybe better solutions out there, as long as they are consistent.TR 09:49, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Note that currently, the article somewhat randomly fluctuates between "Maria" and "Marie" in this subsection.TR 09:51, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I like this solution, implemented. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:03, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• he was able to find some space for Marie another switch in the name used.TR 14:42, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
• ''The two begun to develop feelings for one another, although at first Skłodowska did not accept his marriage proposal, not wishing to stay in France; Pierre however declared that he was ready to move with her to Poland, even if he was to be reduced to a French language teacher. Suggest splitting in multiple sentences. (In particular, split the first and second clause. It currently reads as if Pierre proposed before they developed feelings for each other.)TR 14:42, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
• promoted to a professorship position -> "promoted to professor"TR 14:42, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

I tried rewriting this and some other things nearby that sounded not exactly right: [7]. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 20:10, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

• through the mechanism behind their existence was not yet understood. Poorly phrase (also note the typo in the first word).TR 10:38, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Could I ask you to rephrase it to a better sounding version? I can't think of one. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 20:10, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

"though the mechanism behind their production was not yet understood"

or alternatively

"though their nature was not yet understood"

Note that the two have a slightly different meaning and I think the first may be more appropriate.TR 09:59, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

All right, used first version. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:03, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• Fifteen years earlier, her husband and his brother had invented the electrometer, a sensitive device for measuring electrical charge. Please refer to cite source, which a) say that Pierre invented a new type of electrometer. b) That this device measured (small) currents not charge.TR 10:38, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Fixed. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 20:10, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

• ''Beginning to question the claim that atoms are not indivisible was among her most important contributions to science. Suggest rephrasing: "This hypothesis was an important step in disproving the ancient assumption that atoms were indivisible."TR 10:38, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Done. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 20:10, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

• The School would not sponsor her research, This suggests that the school refused to sponsor the research. Is this supported by the references? Otherwise I suggest rephrasing.TR 10:38, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

This is based on [8]: "The school did not help to subsidize her studies, but she received complimentary steel samples from several metallurgical firms"; PSB does not contradict it (it confirms the second part). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 21:59, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Maybe, "The School did not sponsor her research, but she would receive some subsidies from metallurgical and mining companies, and various organizations and governments.", would be better then, since the sources do not imply that she was refused sponsorship by the school.TR 10:22, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

All right, changed to that. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:03, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• ''Marie was awarded her DSc from the University of Paris. I don't think French universities ever offered DSc degrees. You probably just want to use the term "doctorate".TR 10:38, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Fixed. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 21:59, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

• In 1902 she visited Poland, on the occasion of her father's death. This sentence is oddly disconnected from the context (which deals with her scientific career.TR 10:38, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

If you have an idea where to move it, please go ahead. I tried to keep the text flowing in a chronological manner. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 21:59, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Not off-hand, but the sentence really strengthens the "and then, and then and then"character of the paragraph, which is not the strongest prose. However, I do not think this should really be an obstacle for GA. So, just keep thinking about this, if you want to proceed to FA.TR 10:22, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• '' by the offer from the University of Geneva What offer?TR 10:38, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Explained ([9]). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 21:59, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

• the Sorbonne gave Pierre a professorship and a chair of physics It is very odd to speak of "a chair of physics".TR 10:38, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

I changed it to the, I hope this is better. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 21:59, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

yes.TR 10:22, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• "as most researchers were drafted for into the French Army weird phrasing.TR 10:38, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Removed "for". --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 21:59, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

• ''She became the Director of the Red Cross Radiology Service set up France's first military radiology centre, operational by late 1914. Something needs to seperate/connect the two clauses in this sentence.TR 08:49, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Fixed - missing "and" added. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 21:59, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

• Despite all her efforts, Curie never received any formal recognition from the French government for her contribution during wartime. "Despite" suggests that Marie's efforts were aimed at getting recognition, which I guess is not what is meant.TR 08:49, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Right. How would you suggest we rephrase it? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 21:59, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

You could replace "despite" with "notwithstanding", which does not share to connotation that Marie's efforts were aimed at getting recognized.TR 10:22, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Done. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:03, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• She was also active member in committees of Polish Polonia in France dedicated to the Polish cause. There something off about this sentence. Is "Polish Polonia" not a pleonasm?TR 08:49, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Is. Fixed. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 21:59, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

• Mrs. William Brown Meloney, after interviewing Marie, created a Marie Curie Radum Fund and raised money to buy 1 gram of radium, publicized her trip. Too many verbs. (Should there be a "who" after the first comma?)TR 08:49, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Changed publicized to publicizing; I'll default to your opinion on commas in English. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 00:10, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

much better.TR 10:31, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• ''In 1921 US President Warren G. Harding received her at the White House. It may be of note that this was to present here with the gram of radium.TR 08:49, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

We can add it... source? :) --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 00:10, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

In [10]: " When word got out that the President of the United States himself would present Curie with the gift of radium, French officials looked for a way to make up for past oversights."TR 10:31, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Ah, right. All right, added. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:03, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• ''The French government attempted to award her a Legion of Honour, but she refused. It is rather impossible to "award a legion of honour", since that is a commemorative order. Suggest rephrasing "The French government offered her a Legion of Honour award, but she refused." Also, it may be worth mentioning that this was in response to the success of her American campaign.TR 08:49, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Expanded: [11]. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 00:10, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• In the "honours section" it may be worthwhile to mention the Marie Curie Fellowships of the EU.TR 08:49, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Uh. It might, if somebody could expand the article to make it notable and meaningful. I did a quick search for sources, but couldn't find anything that would seem like a good cite (the fellowship exists, but I can't find a source that discusses its connection to MC, or explains it in any meaningful detail). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 00:10, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

I share your pain, in dealing with the websites for the Marie Curie actions. Given the high profile of these fellowships (being one of the most prestigious post-doc fellowships in the EU) I think they should be mentioned at some point.TR 10:31, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Here, [12] is a recent brochure (mostly consisting of the Marie Curie program blowing smoke up its own ass), which at least contains a few paragraphs on the history and purpose of the Marie Curie Actions.TR 15:16, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Good find, added ([13]). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:03, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

References

• May I suggest the use of the {{harvnb}} template for the Harvard style references to books. This helps by providing a link to the actual book reference. (You may need to add |ref=harv to the relevant cite templates for the link to work.)TR 08:49, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
• The article seems to make inconsistent use of citation templates, leading to inconsistent formatting of refs.TR 08:49, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
• Some books are missing their ISBN.TR 08:49, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

I really hate playing with refs, but I agree there is some inconsistency. I'll see if I can get help to clean up that. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 00:13, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

I did a major c/e of references, I hope they are at GA level now. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:48, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I tied up some loose ends. The refs are currently certainly GA level. There are still some minor formatting inconsistencies (such as ISBN formats) which should probably be dealt with before any FA.TR 09:36, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Verdict

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.	There are some glaring grammar errors that need fixing before it can pass GA. (see above) As whole, it is clearly that most of the text is written by non-native speaker(s) of English, and it shows. As a non-native speaker myself I am not in the best position to provide suggested improvements. If the article is ever to be put forward for FA, it could substentially benefit from an intensive round of copy-editing by a native speaker.TR 09:20, 7 September 2012 (UTC) Good enough for GA now.TR 09:42, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.	There a couple of issue with the layout of the lede and some images.TR 09:20, 7 September 2012 (UTC) Fixed.TR 09:42, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
2. Verifiable with no original research:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.	Reference layout is currently inconsistent. (minor point)TR 09:20, 7 September 2012 (UTC) Good enough now.TR 09:42, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).	The are couple of statements needing citation.TR 09:20, 7 September 2012 (UTC) Fixed.TR 09:42, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
	2c. it contains no original research.	Not as far as I can tell.TR 09:20, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.	Very complete.TR 09:20, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).	It stays focused without needlessly going into anecdotal detail.TR 09:20, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.	Mostly.TR 09:20, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.	No major recent edit wars.TR 09:20, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.	Some captions are very brief and could use some work, however.TR 09:20, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
	7. Overall assessment.	Overall, very good job. The most immediate problems should be fairly easy to fix. Please note that I will be away for a couple of days.TR 09:20, 7 September 2012 (UTC) The most pressing issues have been dealt with. Content wise I think this article is probably at (or very near) FA-level. With some polishing of the prose (and some ref tinkering) I think this article could probably pass FA as well.TR 09:42, 11 September 2012 (UTC)