Talk:Maria Saal Cathedral

Requested move 13 September 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Maria Saal Cathedral, although maybe not the most technically correct name, there is support in RS as noted below for this common name and clearly no support for the current article title. Mike Cline (talk) 13:36, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

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Co-cathedral of the Assumption of Mary, Maria Saal → Church of the Assumption of Mary, Maria Saal – As explained to the creator of the page, the source he's using to support the cathedral status (Gcatholic) can be hardly considered as a reliable source, as it's basically a self-published source. In this specific case, although the popular name in German seems to be Dom zu Maria Saal, it is not the diocese seat (or co-seat). That is, at most, Cathedral of Maria Saal, as direct translation of the popular name in German. IMHO what cannot be done is to mix translations of the actual name (Church of the Assumption of Mary) and the popular name (Cathedral of Maria Saal) to create this hybrid that leads to a wrong statement: this is actually one of the seats of the diocese. Discasto (talk) 09:31, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

• Move to Maria Saal Cathedral. Its own website calls it the Maria Saaler Dom[1] and this would be the usual English translation of that. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:57, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
• Comment - except that "Dom" doesn't always mean cathedral, and this isn't one.Eustachiusz (talk) 17:57, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
• Move to Maria Saal Cathedral the source indicated (http://www.gcatholic.org/churches/europe/3523.htm) (https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=St.+Patrick%27s+Cathedral%2C+Skibbereen#tbm=bks&q=Maria+saal+Cathedral) that it is a co cathedral (alternative cathedral), and also appears in the list of cathedrals in wikipedia in English and German ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cathedrals_in_Austria) (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dome,_Münster_und_Kathedralen_in_deutschsprachigen_Ländern#.C3.96sterreich) --Warairarepano&Guaicaipuro (talk) 13:37, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Both names (Church of the Assumption of Mary, Maria Saal and Maria Saal Cathedral) can be valid. The one currently given cannot. The problem seems to come from a particularly bad source such as gcatholic.org. To name a few, it states that St. Patrick's Cathedral, Skibbereen is actually a cathedral (forget the name, I'm referring only to its canon status) when the diocese does not give any particular status to such a church; when it comes to the Cathedral of St. James the Great, Beja (Cathedral of St. James the Greater, Beja would be valid also) it names it Cathedral of St. James Major, Beja, doing a macarronic translation of the original Portuguese name. gcatholic.org seems to be a self-published source with unknown sources and, as already pointed out, not reliable according to the English Wikipedia policies. Finally, @Warairarepano&Guaicaipuro:, Wikipedia is not a valid sources. Moreover, none of the sources provided in here state more than this particular church (which was in the past a cathedral) keps on being referred to as a cathedral (in spite of not actually being one, from a canon point of view). Best regards --Discasto (talk) 09:48, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

• Rename. I agree that the present name is quite hopeless. I like the clarity of "Maria Saal Cathedral", but don't agree that it should be used, because it's inaccurate: this is not a cathedral, nor has it ever been ("Dom" is a wider term than "cathedral" and often just means "big or important church"). I would go for "Church of the Assumption, Maria Saal". Eustachiusz (talk) 17:57, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Then you need to alter the article, because that says it was once a cathedral! -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:01, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
    • thus demonstrating why Wikipedia is not admissable as a source... My understanding is that the bishop was not a full diocesan bishop but a chorepiscopus or missionary bishop, who by definition had no seat and thus no cathedral: he had a church as a centre of administration which was as important as a cathedral but technically not one. Such churches generally became cathedrals when the bishops became full diocesan bishops, but that process was apparently interrupted here by politicking. However, see also below for an alternative .Eustachiusz (talk) 16:53, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
• Move to Church of the Assumption, Maria Saal per Eustachiusz, or alternatively Support original move per nom. Whichever gains more consensus. Calling it a cathedral or co-cathedral appears to be original research, based on a possible mistranslation of the German word Dom. No reliable source presented that calls it one, so let's call it a church.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:28, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
• Comment. Given there doesn't seem to be any commonly used English-language translation, why not Maria Saaler Dom? Contrary to belief among many on Wikipedia, WP:USEENGLISH does not require us to translate every single foreign term, but only to use the common English term when one exists (e.g. take a look at Category:Churches in Venice, where almost all the articles are retained in their original language because that's what they're known as in English-language as well as Italian-language sources). I can see no evidence whatsoever that its common name in English-language sources is the Church of the Assumption. Would anyone care to provide some? Otherwise we should go with what it calls itself (as it were), and that's Maria Saaler Dom. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:00, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
  • The Rough Guide to Austria, incidentally, one of the most popular English-language travel guides, calls it the Wallfahrtskirche. The Michelin Guide uses the translation, Pilgrimage Church. We have a selection to choose from. But Church of the Assumption? No. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:00, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
    • When a cathedral loses its status it's generally referred to as any church would be, that is to say, by its dedication, unless it has some better-established name. There is no reason to resort to a German name which no English speaker is ever likely to call it. "Church of the Assumption [of Mary], Maria Saal" is perfectly feasible (Necrosthesp not liking it is no bar), but an unsystematic trawl of Google seems to point to the "Pilgrimage Church, Maria Saal" as apparently the commonest Eng lang name (leaving aside unworkable machine translations), as suggested by Necrothesp, and I could agree on that. Eustachiusz (talk)
      • It is not at all true that former cathedrals are no longer referred to as cathedrals. Many are all over the world (just look close to home in Scotland for a number of examples!). As to no English speaker ever using the German term, what utter rubbish. I'm a native English speaker. I am fully aware what Wallfahrtskirche means and would use it (or Maria Saaler Dom) if that was the common name. Are you saying the Rough Guide isn't a reliable source? I think many thousands of travellers would disagree with you. Your comment that I object because I don't like it is ludicrous. You are proposing a name that doesn't appear to be supported in many (or any) reliable sources. How is that meeting the criteria of WP:COMMONNAME or WP:UE? As I have already said, it is a clear (if unfortunately far too common) misreading of UE to insist on translation of all foreign language names. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:32, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
• Support a move, anything that has actual support in sources. I'll throw in another option: Church of Maria Saal, which is fairly common on Google Books.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:59, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Is there only one church in Maria Saal? Eustachiusz (talk) 16:53, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

There's only one that has an article, or apparent historical significance. The references I looked at all intended this church.--Cúchullain ^t/c 14:19, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Church of Maria Saal isn't really intuitive English. It's the sort of name that would given to it by a speaker whose native language wasn't English (lots of these crop up on Wikipedia because they're originated by non-native speakers, often using the name from English-language versions of foreign websites also translated by non-native speakers). Maria Saal Church would be better if we're going down that route and I would have no objection to that or to Maria Saal Pilgrimage Church. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:32, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

Closer comment: Additional sources: [2], [ http://www.jstor.org/stable/40563404 CARINTHIA: A Province of Austria's Southern Frontier, Alice F. A. Mutton, Geography, Vol. 38, No. 2 (APRIL, 1953), pp. 83-93] that may be useful. --Mike Cline (talk) 13:40, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.