Talk:Maria Grzegorzewska/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Eddie891 (talk · contribs) 20:44, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

I plan to take this on in the coming week Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 20:44, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

comments

As always, comments are subjective and open to disagreement

I prefer to say open to discussion . Thank you so much for picking this one up. SusunW (talk) 13:44, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

• Sourcing is fine, I'd recommend that you provide English translations for all Polish titles, though that's not a point that would hold up approval (no census figures to worry about here )

(LOL, but I was very happy that the last "commenter" was able to explain the difference in due diligence to verify if a source is reliable, and conducting original research.) I have done the translations but am going to ping Piotrus to check them, especially Herz (because the noun form has changed, and I never know if it is correct), and Bucior, Zielińska, and "Akademia Pedagogiki Specjalnej im. Marii Grzegorzewskiej" (because I am unsure of how "pedagogiki specjalnej" should translated.) In English, pedagogy is the science underlying the practices of teaching, so I am unsure if the term in Polish simply means "special education", i.e. teaching, or if it means "Special Education Methodology". SusunW (talk) 13:44, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

I could nitpick "an Indication for Contemporary Educators" -> "an Advice for Contemporary Educators" might sound better in English. And "Poznań Educational Service" -> "Poznań Educational Portal" might be better as well. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:52, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

 Done SusunW (talk) 14:52, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

• "After attending clandestine schools" is there a link you could put here? I'm not familiar with what clandestine schools are

Schools where people could have their children learn their native language and customs, i.e. Polish, Ukrainian, Latvian, etc. It was illegal for official schools to teach anything other than Russian language and culture...they were attempting to assimilate the population and eradicate their traditions. Again, I will defer to Piotrus, but I think the best link would be to Flying University? SusunW (talk) 13:49, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Right, see Underground education in Poland. Seeing as she was a student in Warsaw, a link to Flying University is probably a good idea. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:52, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

 Done SusunW (talk) 14:52, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

• "from Polish rather than Russian educators" what's the significance of having this in the lede?

See above, it was the nature of the clandestine schools, to try to keep ones sense of identity and tradition in a system built to eradicate that. SusunW (talk) 14:06, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

• I changed your link [[University of Paris|Sorbonne]] to [[Sorbonne]], please just check that's factually accurate

Again, I am laughing. I wish they would quit changing this, as it really screws up linked articles. At this point Sorbonne links only to the building, not the university. It cannot link to the Collège de Sorbonne, as that closed in 1885, so I think the original link was correct. SusunW (talk) 14:06, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Ah, my bad. Sorry about that Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 12:11, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

• "of the Second Polish Republic" -> "of the Second Polish Republic in 1918"?

 Done SusunW (talk) 14:24, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

• "Using her own methodology" as opposed to? perhaps remove?

Hmmm, I think it is quite significant that she created her own methods combining her training and knowledge from Belgium, France, and Poland to tailor a system that would be successful in Poland. I don't think there is an as opposed to. Up until the 20th century, care and education of the disabled was a hodgepodge of different policies and there was no real systematic foundation to choose from.[1] SusunW (talk) 14:24, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

• "during Stalinism" is there a way you could rephrase this along the lines of "as Poland was ruled under Stalinism" (that's not ideal either, but something like that)?

Changed it to read "during the implementation of Stalinist doctrine in Poland". If that's okay, then  Done SusunW (talk) 14:30, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

• "Państwowe Studium Pedagogiki Specjalnej (State College of Special Education)" should use {{lang}} for a foreign language, and does the State Institute of Special Education previously mentioned also have a Polish name to add for consistancy?

I usually follow WP:Common name and find it bizarre that things that don't have wide usage in English are translated. We don't translate La Louvre, or Via della Conciliazione, or Alhambra, or any of a million other things which are widely known, so I find it perplexing that English wp wants to translate things that do not have wide recognition, into English. For example, if I google "Państwowy Instytut Pedagogiki Specjalnej" vs. "Polish Institute of Special Education", I find 427,000 entries for the former, as opposed to 1 entry for the latter and 0 for "State Institute of Special Education, Poland", though there are many hits for simply State Institute of Special Education from multiple countries. Thus, I list the Polish first followed by an English translation. (On the publications, most were never translated into English, so again, seems bizarre to give them a title they never had.) To my knowledge there isn't a way to have the ill template add both a lt=display name as and a ?=display name in original language parameter. Thus as the State Institute of Special Education is notable enough for an en.WP article, the only way I know to do it is to use tl|ill to link to the Polish article and have the Polish translation follow. I have changed them to use the tl|lang, as you suggest, (though IMO, it goes against logic and common name policy and yes, I have this discussion with almost every person who reviews an article of mine, because I rarely write on women who are Anglo :) .)  Done SusunW (talk) 15:27, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

• "She struggled against the state program to protect special education and people with disabilities" could be read as she was struggling against protecting special education, which I don't think is the meaning you want to convey

Agreed. Good catch. Added "wanting"  Done SusunW (talk) 16:13, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

• "the former name was reclaimed and she regained support from government authorities" suggest "the institute regained governmental support and reverted to its initial name"? I mainly take issue with the word 'reclaimed

 Done SusunW (talk) 16:13, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

• "were honored with numerous awards and distinctions." I'd expect some sort of list in the article to support this, rather than a vague "were honored with numerous awards and distinctions at the end of her life" later"

Don't know how I could list them, as the source says only "At the end of her life, she received numerous awards and distinctions in recognition of her merits for the education system and scientific successes." SusunW (talk) 16:13, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

that's fine then Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 12:00, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

• "her daughter developed a sensitivity to the needs of others" I feel like there's a bit of fluff in this part and the preceding two sentences. Is there any way you can cut it down a bit?

Rewrote the paragraph and if it is acceptable, then  Done SusunW (talk) 16:13, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

• "At the time that Grzegorzewska began her education in Poland, " perhaps add a year?

 Done SusunW (talk) 16:13, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

• "operated by Mrs. Kotwicki" relevancy to article?

Women's education was relatively rare, businesses and educational facilities with a woman principle were even rarer. It is likely if her name can be ascertained, (like Piotrus discerned for Paulina Hewelke) that an article can be developed. SusunW (talk) 16:13, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

I see Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 12:14, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

• "completing an additional three years of schooling before " needed?

Hmmm, to me yes. I find it fascinating that after 7 years of schooling she was prepared to enter university. It gives a sense of the depth of the education offered to my mind. SusunW (talk) 16:13, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

I just meant that you say she entered school in 1900, attended four years at Mrs. Kotwicki's school then graduated in 1907, so one can assume the three years at the other school, but I will hasten to say that looking back at the article, I think it stands fine as is Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 12:17, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

• "Suffering from a lung disease" can you be any more specific

Perhaps Piotrus can help? The source says „Po śmierci Czesława jakaś bagatelka w płucach zmusiła mnie do wyjazdu do Zakopanego”. (p. 24}}

• Ok, that's literary, I can see why MT would still fail. Sadly, it is not helpful for us, it is lit. "something funny in her lungs". --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:52, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

LOL, in one translation machine I got "a trifle in her lungs", in another I got a "crumb in her lungs", so yes, it made no sense. Something funny doesn't help to clarify it either, so we should probably just leave it as is. SusunW (talk) 15:15, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

• "she began to meet eminent scholars and scientists" If you are going to keep this in the article, I'd expect a list of some of them

 Done SusunW (talk) 16:33, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

• "Though the faculty of the school was a mix of scientists from Argentina, Belgium, France, Georgia, the Netherlands, Poland, Romania, and Spain," is this necessary? One would presume an international faculty is international in composition?

To me, far more interesting than a list of names is the impact of multi-culturalism and thus from whence the scholars came, so yes, I think it important, but have removed the list based on your analysis.  Done SusunW (talk) 17:10, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

• "s Józefa Berggruen, Stefania Chmielakówna and Wanda Wosińska" Why does only one merit a red link?

Kind of like the above question on Kotwicki, IMO. If the source thought it important enough to give the name, the person is probably notable, as these are scholarly articles. When I am writing, if I find sufficient sources to write an article, I redlink. If I do not, I still list the name, in hopes that at some point, obscured sources will come to light. Interestingly, I have observed that often once a name appears in a wp article, sources that did not exist in a search before emerge, i.e. when I searched for Józefa Berggruen previously, all that was found was that she was a survivor of the Holocaust. Just now searching, I find that she was the principle of a woman's gymnasium, taught in clandestine schools, and wrote a book, i.e. I just redlinked her. (I still do not find enough information to determine anything about Wanda Wosińska from this period). SusunW (talk) 17:10, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

• "though since childhood Grzegorzewska had been uneasy at the sight of physical impairment" is this necessary?

deleted, though I think it is interesting and shows that she wasn't some saint driven purely by altruism.  Done SusunW (talk) 18:44, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

• "combining her experience from Poland, Belgium and France." I feel like this could be assumed, maybe remove?

I may well be wrong, but I think it is important to ground her method in her experiences and training rather than have it be invented out of the air? (Which is not to say inventors do not have value, but in this case it would be creepy, like human experimentation or something :S). I rewrote it as "a method, based on her training and experience, to work with pupils". If that suffices, then  Done SusunW (talk) 18:44, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

• "In spite of her numerous obligations" presumably, maybe remove? I'd be fine if you'd rather keep

 Done SusunW (talk) 18:44, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

• Should the book titles use sentence capitalization? Should they all be italicized?

This goes back to the previous discussion about language. These book titles, for the most part, have never been translated into English, nor are they likely to be. Translating them makes sense, but changing the title to English title case is weird as all that is needed IMO is to know what the title says. But I've done it, even if it is not logical :)  Done SusunW (talk) 18:44, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

• "With the onset of World War II," might help to add a date?

 Done SusunW (talk) 18:44, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

• "second volume of „Psychologia niewidomych” (Psychology of the Deaf, first volume published in 1930) " why not mention it earlier?

Because what was lost was her 2nd edition and first edition of Osobowość nauczyciela? I did not even attempt a "selected works" section, as virtually none of her books have been translated. SusunW (talk) 18:44, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

• "After Poland was liberated," could use a year?

 Done SusunW (talk) 18:44, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

• "solutions to validate the lives" maybe 'solutions to improve'?

 Done SusunW (talk) 19:08, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

• "She stressed that lession" 'lession'?

lessons.  Done SusunW (talk) 19:08, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

• "and communist ideology" is communist ideology in itself necessarily harmful?

(We're talking about Stalinism here, so yes, in and of itself his ideology was harmful—persecution, threats, state sponsored violence, gulags, purges...) According to the source "However, the period of Stalinism turned out to be the most difficult. The effort put into the reconstruction of the State Institute of Special Education was received coldly by the then authorities of the Polish People's Republic. All kinds of activities were significantly limited by the absurd suspicions and restrictions of the communist apparatus of power." I've changed it to "and policies based on fear and suspicion". If that works for you then  Done SusunW (talk) 19:08, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

• Was she a global pioneer? If not, were there any influences?

Not sure I understand the question. When she began organizing special education in Warsaw there was no standardization and the only established institutions that did teacher training for special education were located in Budapest, Moscow, and Zürich, so clearly her work was pioneering. (Siemak-Tylikowska, p 3) Are you asking if it had impact outside of Poland? Not surprisingly considering the east/west divide during the cold war there wasn't a lot written about her in the west. However, this seems to suggest she had influence in Bosnia? Croatia? Serbia? (translates in various engines as different but I have no idea where it came from). Working on it. SusunW (talk) 20:02, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Yeah it was asking if she had any global influence.

 Done SusunW (talk) 15:15, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

• Overall, a nicely written, very interesting article about a talented and very interesting woman, nice work!Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 00:20, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
• any more images you can add?

If I could determine publication history, yes. See discussion and here. SusunW (talk) 17:52, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

If I am reading the Serbian piece correctly, the article is a review of her 1964 publication Wybór pism with biographical background. Which means that the photograph was first published in Poland in that book in 1964 and would qualify for this template if it could be ascertained that it did not contain a copyright notice. A better image is found here, but clearly is the same photo as the one published in Serbia in 1965. I cannot find anything other than the front of the book available on line, so despite having images that might be able to be used, without access to a library, I cannot make a determination on any of these. SusunW (talk) 21:01, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

I've added the photo of the school named after her and her grave to Wikimedia Commons category for her, they were not categorized with in (I found both on pl wiki in her article). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:56, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Okay, well I am going to add the 1964 photo as fair use and hope that in the future someone who has access to a library will determine if any of these others can be used. SusunW (talk) 15:15, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

 Done SusunW (talk) 15:42, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

• Spotcheck comes up clean, though I will note I cannot read polish, so am assuming good faith

I always have a native speaker review articles when I draw on mostly foreign language sources. SusunW (talk) 17:52, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

• However, in the sources I've been checking they mention her as a pioneer in special education, not the sole founder.

"Creator of Special Education in Poland" (Bucior); "founder and from 1922–60 director of the National Institute of Special Education" (Encyklopedia PWN); "The creator of Polish special pedagogy" (Stec). SusunW (talk) 17:52, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

and the Croatian? piece says "koju s pravom možemo nazvati tvorcem specijalne pedagogije" [which we can rightly call the creator of special pedagogy] SusunW (talk) 20:02, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the review, Eddie891. Really appreciate the collaboration and opportunity to improve the article. I'll work on the Croatian source I found and see if I can answer your question about broader impact. No idea if Piotrus is around today or not, but he's usually fairly quick to respond. At any rate, working on it and will get back to you. SusunW (talk) 20:02, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Well, first off, it is a RS as is a scientific journal, 2ndly, says it is Serbian, and 3rd there's a photo, if I can figure out if we can use it. Now the hard part, translating it... SusunW (talk) 20:16, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

SusunW Thanks for all your work on this. I do think that for a non-Polish speaker, having English translations makes the article read better. I'll just wait on the Serbian piece and to see if Piortrus comments here Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 12:09, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for your patience, Eddie891, and the comments. (And I do get the language thing, it's just weird to me.) Slow going as I don't know the unicode characters for Serbian and thus must copy and paste corrections to the letters which are not Latin. (Far better than Russian, which I must copy and paste each character :), but it's slow going.) It's really quite fascinating. Apparently she corresponded with Veljka Lj. Ramadanovića in Serbia who administrated a home for the blind. Through their correspondence, her articles began being translated (but the notes say the translations were poor as whoever did them knew Polish but not the field of disability, which limited their impact on a broader range of scholars, because the word for word translations were faulty.) There were also several Serbians who trained under her at the State Institute, i.e. "Božidar Karličić, Ljubica Vucelićeva, Desimir Ristović, and Petar Meandžija". (That's a summary of page 91). I'll ask a Serbian speaker to double check me, when I finish. SusunW (talk) 14:28, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

(Much of it repeats her bio). She was entrusted in 1919, by the "ministry of worship and national education" to organize an institution for the disabled. "Special education was in its infancy in Poland at the time: there was a bureau for the deaf in Warsaw, a bureau for the blind in Bydgoszcz and Lviv and ancillary schools in Warsaw and Lodz - that was all". Under her leadership the State Institute of Phonetics and a one-year seminar on special education were merged in 1922 into the State Institute of Special Pedagogy. She organized tertiary courses in special education for the University of Warsaw. (excerpts from page 92). SusunW (talk) 17:49, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

The last page talks mainly about her publications. But this clearly shows her reach went beyond Poland: "We can say without any exaggeration that it would be a positive contribution" for development of disability programs if we could have quality translations to improve accessibility to Grzegorzewska's ideas and achievements". SusunW (talk) 19:22, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Eddie891 I added info from the Serbian piece. I also added info on the photo so hopefully at some point, someone with access to a library might be able to ascertain whether any of these can be used. I'll circle back to see if Piotrus has had a chance to answer any of the questions and if he cannot respond in a day or so, I'll ask another polyglot. SusunW (talk) 21:10, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

SusunW, Piotrus responded, have you had time to address everything? If so, I'm happy to pass Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 13:15, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Eddie891 I think I got everything. Advise if I did not. Truly enjoy collaborating with you and thank you so much for your efforts to improve the article. SusunW (talk) 15:42, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

SusunW, Looks good to me. This article is well referenced, illustrated, written, and contains no copyright violation. As such, I'm happy to promote to GA Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 21:03, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

I do note the article mentioned on the talk, but while I agree that would be useful in expanding the article, I have no issue with comprehensiveness at a ga level Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 21:05, 19 April 2020 (UTC)