Talk:Margaret Sambiria

Latest comment: 1 year ago by Nederlandse Leeuw in topic Estonia

Untitled

edit

To change this from Margaret to Margrethe is very inappropriate. Current Danish spelling was not in use in those days, thus such formulation does not make sense. And, to other nationalities she was Margaret. (It should be notred that she was not born Danish.) Arrigo 06:06, 17 July 2005 (UTC)Reply

edit

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Margaret Sambiria. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 00:35, 17 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

Estonia

edit

Hi @Aciram, did you mean duchess instead of countess? Because at the time the land was called Duchy of Estonia (1219–1346). duchess is the female form of duke. It's okay for a duchess regnant, i.e. female duke reigning in her own right, to be in a Dukes of Foo category. E.g. Nicole, Duchess of Lorraine is Category:Dukes of Lorraine. Therefore, Margaret Sambiria should be in Category:Dukes of Estonia. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:26, 22 April 2023 (UTC)Reply

The source said Countess, not Duchess. Perhaps her son gave her the title Countess instead of Duchess because he was himself the actual Duke (Estonia was Danish), or perhaps it was simply a typo of the source and Duchess was the intented title all along. Because of that insecurity I thought ruler was a safer category.--Aciram (talk) 14:43, 22 April 2023 (UTC)Reply
Which source? Ref 1:
  • Ved denne Tid fik Margrethe for Livstid overladt Estland som Enke-eje; endnu vedblev hun dog længe at være den wirkelig styrende i hele Riget, og hendes Energi skyldtes det vel, at Ærkebispedistriden førtes til en ret lykkelig Udgang, ligesom ofsaa, at Hertugdømmet efer Erik Abelsøns Død atter kom under Kronen.
    • At this time Margrethe was given Estonia as a widow's property for life; still, however, she continued for a long time to be the effective ruler of the whole kingdom, and her energy was probably due to the fact that the archbishopric dispute was brought to a fairly happy conclusion, and also that the duchy after the death of Erik Abelsön came again under the crown. The text doesn't actually mention here title, but that Estonia, i.e. the Duchy of Estonia (1219–1346), became her "property for life" means she was a duchess regnant of Estonia. The "duchy" mentioned at the end of the sentence may or may not refer to Estonia, but more likely to Duchy of Schleswig because "Erik Abelsøn" = Eric I, Duke of Schleswig.
Ref 11
  • Samme år overlod kongen Estland og Virland, der siden 1219 havde været under dansk overhøjhed, til Margrete Sambiria på livstid.
    • In the same year (1266), the King (Eric V of Denmark "Klipping") gave Estonia and Vironia, which had been under Danish sovereignty since 1219, to Margrete Sambiria for life. The year "1219" explicitly refers to Duchy of Estonia (1219–1346).
Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:22, 22 April 2023 (UTC)Reply
Some literature says that Margaret's title as lifelong owner of Estonia was Domina Estoniae ("Lady of Estonia"). Sources on p. 104 (82), 105 (83), etc.: Margareta Danorum Sclavorumque regina et domina Estoniæ
Note that Agnes of Brandenburg is called Agnes Danorum Sclavorumque regina, ducissa Estoniæ a little further down the line. This source notes the inconsistency. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:35, 22 April 2023 (UTC)Reply
PS: One hypothesis I have is that having a female duke was such a new concept to the chroniclers that they didn't even have a well-established Latin word for duchess yet. The word ducissa only shows up twice before 1266, namely in 1193/4 for the duchess of Pomerania. and in 1262 for the duchess of Saxony. Apart from Agnes, no other Estonian or Danish monarch is ever called ducissa; it almost literally a foreign concept. They may have chosen domina for Margaret for lack of a better term in Latin. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:44, 22 April 2023 (UTC)Reply
Oh good lord, I don't have time to read this, but this is not a hill do die on for me; it is not a big issue for me. I originally wrote this article, and remember that the source said countess and not duchess, otherwise I would not have written it to begin with, but I don't remember which one. I could go through them, but to me, it seems a simple solution to just have her in the ruler category - and if not, I won't protest if she is placed in the duke category since its not a big issue, as this might just be a typo, but I can't swear on it (the ruler-category is always preferable, since most states have had a ruler which did not conform to the title or position to the rest). Have a nice day.--Aciram (talk) 18:02, 22 April 2023 (UTC)Reply
Thank you for your response. I didn't make this decision lightly, I had good reasons for it. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:33, 22 April 2023 (UTC)Reply