Talk:Margaret Sambiria

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To change this from Margaret to Margrethe is very inappropriate. Current Danish spelling was not in use in those days, thus such formulation does not make sense. And, to other nationalities she was Margaret. (It should be notred that she was not born Danish.) Arrigo 06:06, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

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Estonia

Hi @Aciram, did you mean duchess instead of countess? Because at the time the land was called Duchy of Estonia (1219–1346). duchess is the female form of duke. It's okay for a duchess regnant, i.e. female duke reigning in her own right, to be in a Dukes of Foo category. E.g. Nicole, Duchess of Lorraine is Category:Dukes of Lorraine. Therefore, Margaret Sambiria should be in Category:Dukes of Estonia. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:26, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

The source said Countess, not Duchess. Perhaps her son gave her the title Countess instead of Duchess because he was himself the actual Duke (Estonia was Danish), or perhaps it was simply a typo of the source and Duchess was the intented title all along. Because of that insecurity I thought ruler was a safer category.--Aciram (talk) 14:43, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Which source? Ref 1:

• Ved denne Tid fik Margrethe for Livstid overladt Estland som Enke-eje; endnu vedblev hun dog længe at være den wirkelig styrende i hele Riget, og hendes Energi skyldtes det vel, at Ærkebispedistriden førtes til en ret lykkelig Udgang, ligesom ofsaa, at Hertugdømmet efer Erik Abelsøns Død atter kom under Kronen.
  • At this time Margrethe was given Estonia as a widow's property for life; still, however, she continued for a long time to be the effective ruler of the whole kingdom, and her energy was probably due to the fact that the archbishopric dispute was brought to a fairly happy conclusion, and also that the duchy after the death of Erik Abelsön came again under the crown. The text doesn't actually mention here title, but that Estonia, i.e. the Duchy of Estonia (1219–1346), became her "property for life" means she was a duchess regnant of Estonia. The "duchy" mentioned at the end of the sentence may or may not refer to Estonia, but more likely to Duchy of Schleswig because "Erik Abelsøn" = Eric I, Duke of Schleswig.

Ref 11

• Samme år overlod kongen Estland og Virland, der siden 1219 havde været under dansk overhøjhed, til Margrete Sambiria på livstid.
  • In the same year (1266), the King (Eric V of Denmark "Klipping") gave Estonia and Vironia, which had been under Danish sovereignty since 1219, to Margrete Sambiria for life. The year "1219" explicitly refers to Duchy of Estonia (1219–1346).

Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:22, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Some literature says that Margaret's title as lifelong owner of Estonia was Domina Estoniae ("Lady of Estonia"). Sources on p. 104 (82), 105 (83), etc.: Margareta Danorum Sclavorumque regina et domina Estoniæ

Note that Agnes of Brandenburg is called Agnes Danorum Sclavorumque regina, ducissa Estoniæ a little further down the line. This source notes the inconsistency. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:35, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

PS: One hypothesis I have is that having a female duke was such a new concept to the chroniclers that they didn't even have a well-established Latin word for duchess yet. The word ducissa only shows up twice before 1266, namely in 1193/4 for the duchess of Pomerania. and in 1262 for the duchess of Saxony. Apart from Agnes, no other Estonian or Danish monarch is ever called ducissa; it almost literally a foreign concept. They may have chosen domina for Margaret for lack of a better term in Latin. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:44, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Oh good lord, I don't have time to read this, but this is not a hill do die on for me; it is not a big issue for me. I originally wrote this article, and remember that the source said countess and not duchess, otherwise I would not have written it to begin with, but I don't remember which one. I could go through them, but to me, it seems a simple solution to just have her in the ruler category - and if not, I won't protest if she is placed in the duke category since its not a big issue, as this might just be a typo, but I can't swear on it (the ruler-category is always preferable, since most states have had a ruler which did not conform to the title or position to the rest). Have a nice day.--Aciram (talk) 18:02, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your response. I didn't make this decision lightly, I had good reasons for it. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:33, 22 April 2023 (UTC)