Talk:Marco Polo sheep

Sources

About its endanger and rescue

• Xinhua, about the increase of the sheeps in China 2006]
• NAG, decrease in Afghanistan]
• New straits times, Sheep in Pakistan and its connection with Marco Polo]
• NPR, Interview with George Schaller
• Times Dispatch June 22, 2009 Afghanistan protects the sheeps
• Discover George Schaller grand plan to rescue the species
• Ohmynews

Description and habitats

• Journal of Mammalogy very descriptive info on mps horns Burningview (talk) 19:19, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
• Wildlife of Pakistan SILVER: Description, Biology, Reproduction, Social Behaviour, Diet, Habitat and Distribution (Reliable source ?)
• Wild sheep and goats and their relatives (Preview book) GOLD: More info than the one before and a Reliable source

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Diaa abdelmoneim (talk • contribs) 08:03, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Todo

References

The current references are mostly inaccessible except for the National Geographic one which needs a proper citation template.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 08:34, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

• "Polo, Marco and Rustichello of Pisa. The Travels of Marco Polo, Vol. 1. Ed. Henry Yule (1903), and Henry Cordier (1920). Gutenberg Project, 2004." should be replaced with an up to date reference
• [1] URL accessed March 16, 2006 is inaccessible
• http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060916/sc_afp/indiaenvironment is inaccessible

Structure

Expansion of the content is easy and possible:

• History -
  • What was Marco Polo doing when he discovered this breed?
  • When?
  • What happened after that?
• Characteristics (size, horns, fell)
• Range and habitat (distribution, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Kazakhstan...?)

 Done

• Biology and behavior (Subsections: Diet, Reproduction)
• Threats (Hunters, predators)
• Conservation (Advances in conservations in the regions) (News sources ^ )

Media

• Image of the Sheep (Flickr)
• Distribution
• SVG drawing of the sheep

Templates

•  Done The domestic sheep template is not related to this article and should be removed
•  Done A template with links to the Subspecies of Argali would be an improvement --Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 08:43, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Suggested plan, from chzz

I was asked on WP:SPOTLIGHT IRC how I thought that this article should be improved; my suggestion is this.

• The 'lede' should be a summary of the whole article, and nothing that is not in the body. Therefore, it's usually best to worry about the lede *last*. I suggest that you change it so that the lede is just "Marco Polo sheep (Ovis ammon polii) is a subspecies of sheep that takes its name from Marco Polo." Just that - very short.
• Move all the other bits into the correct section.
• Then, check that the bits you moved are referenced correctly. Some of the stuff in the current lede isn't, so you should try to source it if possible.
• Then, expand the article - work on it, etc.
• At the end - when it's looking good - that's the time to go through the article, summarizing everything, and writing a good lede.

I hope that this is helpful. Cheers,  Chzz  ►  17:38, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, good ideas there. -- Oldlaptop321 (talk · contribs) 19:45, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Herez teh old leadz

Marco Polo sheep (Ovis ammon polii) is a subspecies of sheep, specifically of Argali, that takes its name from famed explorer Marco Polo who described the species during his crossing of Afghanistan (ancient Mount Imeon) in 1271. Marco Polo sheep are found only in the Pamir Mountains in the border region of China, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Tajikistan. Some of the protected areas where the species occurs include the Khunjerab National Park and Central Karakoram National Park in northern Pakistan and the Taxkongau Nature Reserve in southwestern China.

Status

Not long but just see this about protection in Afganistan. - Jarry1250 ^{[ humorous – discuss ]} 20:03, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

References

Just from a quick search....

• http://www.treesearch.fs.fed.us/pubs/31033 - PDF download by Schaller, has its own reflist
• http://www.kyrgyzstan.orexca.com/
• http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200403/kaplan - slight mention, maybe ref that they live in Mongolia?

-more to come. Fleetflame 22:03, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

• Roberts, T.J. (May 21, 1998), Mammals of Pakistan (2nd ed.), OUP Pakistan, ISBN 0195777603
• British Museum of Natural History, ed. (1885), Guide to the Galleries of Mammalia (7th ed.), Harvard University, pp. 44–45

Picture

Is there any way we could find a picture that represents the breed more then the fact it is hunted? BlindEagle^{talk~contribs} 12:33, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I've tried hard to get one; I couldn't find any free images on the net; I have emailed several people who had non-free images, but none have responded so far.  Chzz  ►  20:03, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

GA-Class Criteria

A good article is—

1. Well-written:

(a) the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct; and

(b) it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.

2. Verifiable with no original research:

(a) it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline;

(b) reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose); and

(c) it contains no original research.

3. Broad in its coverage:

(a) it addresses the main aspects of the topic; and

(b) it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).

4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.
5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:

(a) media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content; and

(b) media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.

References

Distribution map

Could we get a simple distribution map, showing the appropriate countries in Asia; Afghanistan • China • Kyrgyzstan • Pakistan • Tajikistan

The fact that they exist in these countries is from the RedBook, http://www.iucnredlist.org/details/full/15733/0 (checking through for polii).

Similar to this: http://zipcodezoo.com/Animals/O/Ovis_ammon_polii/Maps/Countries.jpg

 Chzz  ►  02:12, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

• Well the problem here is that these are the distribution of the species and not of the subspecies. A map like that already exists: File:Ovis-ammon-map.png--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 10:18, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
  • There are some brief guidelines here. I agree it would be useful, but I don't think it would be something I would be confident creating. J Milburn (talk) 13:07, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Two pics uploaded

Line drawing

Anatomy (labelled in German) - worth fixing up? It is the correct species, it was detailed as such in the German text.

 Chzz  ►  03:02, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I see you've added the first pic to the article. I agree. Great drawing! In regards to the second one, why is this any better then an anatomical drawing of any other sheep? I'm not sure if there is one out there already that may be helpful or if just a reference to another article that has this already would be appropriate. Thoughts? BlindEagle^{talk~contribs} 12:22, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree- the first pic belongs in the article until we can find a decent photograph. The second isn't really worth translating. J Milburn (talk) 13:04, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Notwithstanding what the German source may have said, the second pic is not a Marco Polo sheep, but a domesticated one. Apart from just "looking" domesticated, and having the proportions of a domesticated sheep, it does not have horns, which Marco Polo sheep do in both rams and ewes. In fact all wild sheep have horns, apart from some female mouflon. The only "wild" characteristic of this picture is the short tail – most domestic sheep have a long one, docked or not. I think this is artistic licence, as the conformation does not really fit the only short-tailed sheep types I know, the Northern European short-tailed sheep group of breeds. Possibly a Romanov though? Richard New Forest (talk) 12:18, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that info. I didn't think that it was useful anyway, and now I'm even more convinced. Cheers!  Chzz  ►  22:29, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

George Schaller's Grand Plan to Save the Marco Polo Sheep

Pamir Mountains Peace Park

This is interesting stuff to be added. Google the park for more info.

http://www.savingwildplaces.com/swp-home/swp-explorationandsurvey/239496 http://discovermagazine.com/2008/mar/21-george-schaller.s-grand-plan-to-save-the-marco-polo-sheep

 Chzz  ►  03:22, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Article about Schaller (note, 3 pages)

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/best-of-adventure-2007/wildlife/george-schaller.html

 Chzz  ►  06:04, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

More decription in German

There is a considerable piece on this specific species in the old German Encyc; I think it could at least be used to make the description better.

• Original (in German)

• Auto translation

I will translate your great work to the german wikipedia and will see if the article by Brehm will give more stuff to add here too. Greetings from Germany -- Achim Raschka (talk) 09:12, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Maybe no pics available

I have communicated with Indianapolis Zoo (via email), in my hunt for pics. (They awarded a prize to Dr. Schaller, who appears to be the world expert on this species). In part, they said, "I think Dr. Schaller is one of only a few people who have actually been close to them other than the native population (or hunters!)."

Thus, it might be impossible to find more pics.  Chzz  ►  04:04, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

A picture from a zoo would be fine- a picture of them in the wild seems unlikely, which is a shame. J Milburn (talk) 14:34, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Google has plenty of pictures of them, all dead and with various men in beanies and checked shirts proudly holding up the creature's head by the horns. So charming!, and one guy,Gordon, prides himself on stuffing them! Pity that they aren't content to shoot them with cameras, to the benefit of everyone.Amandajm (talk) 12:24, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Chzz, did you contact the taxidermist for permission to use that image? It's about as close as you can get without actually photographing one. J Milburn (talk) 12:31, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

In-line refs

At the moment we have lots of very brief in-line refs, with a corresponding list of full refs at the end. Is there any reason why we can't have the full refs as in-line ones, or is that intended later? Richard New Forest (talk) 21:56, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

The references in this article are set up by the Harvard Citation system. Each inline ref links to the reference in the "references" section, which in turn links to the source's information in the Bibliography section. It's not as common on Wikipedia as the simple "insert ref info and reflist," but works just as well. Fleetflame 22:24, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Remainder of discussion not directly relevant to this article, so moved to User talk:Richard New Forest#Reference systems. Richard New Forest (talk) 22:07, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Marco Polo sheep/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Sasata (talk) 00:59, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Hi, I'll be reviewing this article. To save us both time, I'll boldly correct any minor things I see during my review (although feel free to revert or discuss the edits if you don't agree with them), and bring up other points here. I expect to be ready with an initial set of comments in a couple of days. Sasata (talk) 00:59, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

That'll work fine, Sasata, thanks for getting on to this so quickly! I Look forward to seeing what we can do with this.  :-] Fleetflame 02:50, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Ok here's an initial set of comments. I'll give you some time to respond and check later. Still have to check references. Sasata (talk)

Lead *"The Marco Polo sheep (Ovis ammon polii) is a subspecies of argali sheep, named after Marco Polo, from the mountainous regions of Central Asia." Sentence needs to be recast, currently reads like Mr. Polo was from Asia. *"Research has also been carried out into possible agricultural uses." That sentence leaves me hanging. Aren't sheep normally used in agriculture?

• Lead is generally thin. Please add flesh.

Etymology *Ovis ammon polii what does polli mean/derive from? *"Altai argali are the largest of all sheep." This is misplaced in this section. I would expect to find this maybe in the Characteristics section, along with some numbers to demonstrate how large they are.

Characteristics *"The sheep is particularly known for its long, spiraling horns which have been measured with a span up to 140 cm" I've never measured with a span, usually I use a tape measure; reword. *Missing information: how long does the hair get? describe the color patterns more completely, e.g. are the dark and light areas visible on the male in the taxobox pic characteristic of all males, or is coloring variable? Does it change color with the seasons? How long do the female horns get? How long does it take for them to grow the horns (I'm assuming males aren't born like that)? It looks like the female has a stripe of hair down the middle of her back... not mentioned anywhere. Do they have little stubs for tails? What's the average birth size and weight? When do these animals rut? C'mon, details!

• "Mature rams on average weigh 126 kg (280 lb)[10] and ewes weigh 76 kg (170 lb)." Why is the citation in that specific position? Does that mean the last half of the sentence is uncited?
• Why no mention and explanation of the "horn exfoliation" phenomenon, where males lose the distal portion of the horn and leave smooth-surfaced stumps?

*Do these things suffer from common parasitic diseases?

• What do they eat??

Habitat

• the range is so small that it practically begs for a distribution map in the taxobox... is this possible?

*"This region typically has severely cold winds and arid climatic conditions." I'm from Canada, so I probably have a different idea of "severely cold", possibly average low/high temps for the region could be provided? *"The subspecies lives mainly in the northwestern part..." Is there more than just the one subspecies (Ovis ammon polii)? Please clarify. :Ok I did a little looking myself and see there are a number of subspecies. What is the taxonomic criteria for separating subspecies? Why aren't they all listed and described in this article?

Conservation

• "... half [of] what Ronald Petocz estimated in his 1973 tour." Who? What tour? More details please ...
• "...recently launching a campaign to save the species." Avoid using "recently", just use a year

I haven't taken the time to look through everything so far, but just a few responses to some comments:

• I disagree that the sentence in the lead sounds like Polo is from asia, but no matter: it can be changed.

I just thought it was slightly ambiguous, and could be read in two ways. Sasata (talk) 16:44, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

• The size of Altai argali is there because that's the only place in the article they're mentioned.
• "Mature rams on average weigh 126 kg (280 lb)[10] and ewes weigh 76 kg (170 lb)." I didn't notice that the second half didn't have a ref - that reference doesn't mention the ewe's weight, so yes it only applies to the first half - I'll need to ref the second.
• I'm not sure what you mean by "horn exfoliation" and I don't think I've ever seen that it happens to them

Check out this paper: Petocz RG, Shank CC. (1983). "Horn Exfoliation in Marco Polo Sheep, Ovis ammon poli, in the Afghan Pamir". Journal of Mammalogy 64(1):136-38. If you can't get a hold of it, let me know and I can put in a blurb in the article. Sasata (talk) 16:44, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

• On the talk page we've discussed a map....it doesn't look promising
• You're asking about other subspecies?! That's what the Etymology section is there for! Also, they aren't all listed because this is an article about Ovis ammon polii, not Ovis ammon.

Yup. my bad. Sasata (talk) 16:44, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

• I expect a lot of work will need to be done to the conservation section - this was nommed for GAR before I was quite finished working on it, and I've been distracted from it lately due to other projects - adding Petocz's survey was something I was planning on. I'll toss that up soon.

I'll get to the rest later....please leave comments on what I've written down here. Hopefully we can work together and make this a good article. Cheers!  :-] Fleetflame 16:08, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Horn exfoliation

• A good source (science journal) about the phenomenon can be found here:Journal of Mammalogy if needed.  Burningview  ✉ 01:09, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

More sources

• Here's some more sources with information. Let me know if you can't easily access these, and I can get and add info myself. Sasata (talk) 06:43, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Title: Status of Marco Polo sheep Ovis ammon polii in China and adjacent countries: conservation of a Vulnerable subspecies

Author(s): Schaller, GB; Kang, A

Source: ORYX Volume: 42 Issue: 1 Pages: 100-106 Published: 2008

Ok I see you've used this paper, but the year is given as 2006 in the article rather than the correct 2008. I'd change it myself but I'm not familiar with the citation system you're using and wouldn't want to mess it up. Also, Why is the journal name/volume/issue not listed for any of the journal article sources? Sasata (talk) 07:55, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Title: ON THE TAXONOMY OF GIANT SHEEP (OVIS-AMMON LINNAEUS, 1766)

Author(s): GEIST, V

Source: CANADIAN JOURNAL OF ZOOLOGY-REVUE CANADIENNE DE ZOOLOGIE Volume: 69 Issue: 3 Pages: 706-723 Published: MAR 1991

• there's also a number of interesting/relevant journal articles that are unfortunately in other languages, and I can only easily access the abstract of those (sometimes). For example, one paper suggests that helminthiases occur in the sheep:

Title: Helminth fauna of Ovis ammon polii in Uzbekistan.

Author(s): SHAPOLATOV, ZH. SH.

Source: Problemy Parazitologii Pages: 268-269 pp. Published: 1969

Coming back to this after a while, it occurs to me that a section called "Behavior" is missing... do you agree? Sasata (talk) 08:12, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Believe it or not, I was compiling information about behavior already. As to the other information, I'll get to it....I'm very sorry to have dropped out like this, but my internet connection has gone out for the time being; I'm working to get it back up, but in the meantime, I won't be able to edit very much at all. I'll get back as soon as I can. My apologies again. Fleetflame · whack! whack! · 14:21, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Additional comments

I'm not the reviewer, but I'd nevertheless like to make some comments on this article:

1. Please avoid referring to the subspecies as just "polii"; I think it is common practice in zoological nomenclature to use an abbreviation of the full name instead, O. a. polii. In that way, you also avoid having to capitalize a subspecific name when it's at the beginning of a sentence.
2. In the "Etymology" section, you imply that O. a. polii was described as a subspecies and that Blyth intentionally left O. a. ammon for the Altai subspecies. That seems highly unlikely to me, as 19th-century taxonomy was generally in a too disorganized state to do things like that; could you confirm it? (The original name combination in which Blyth published the name would be helpful.)
3. Is there no information about how this subspecies is related to other sheep? Are there no phylogeographic studies of O. ammon?

Thanks, Ucucha 20:52, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

No, thank you. :-] Point taken on the first; it has been changed, on the second....I didn't mean to imply that, I will change that. On the third - this has been addressed before: that information, if it exists, should really go in Ovis ammon. I've put in what information I can find about the other ammon subspecies, but that's as far as I think it should go. If you disagree, feel free to go ahead and throw it in, but I don't feel like spending too much time on it. Thanks again! Fleetflame · whack! whack! · 15:56, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for responding. You might want to include information from studies like [2] and [3], which help showing how this subspecies is related to other forms of O. ammon. Ucucha 16:56, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Update I've been asked to speed along this review; it is now at the top of the old reviews list (62 days old). I'm going to officially place it on hold now and allow 1 week to address the remaining issues. Sasata (talk) 21:24, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

With regret I must fail the article. Please resubmit once the remaining issues are dealt with. Sasata (talk) 22:10, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

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