Talk:María Sabina

Poem

I'm planning on deleting the poem as it is assuredly copyrighted. I'll give it a few days and if there are no substantiated objections, I will delete it. User:Zoe|^(talk) 22:13, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

This is not a "poem" it is a prayer. Haiduc 22:36, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Whatever. It's still a copyvio. User:Zoe|^(talk) 23:03, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Zoe, how do you say that it's a copyvio? Perhaps you could use the ((copyvio)) tag instead. -- Perfecto  23:56, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

The author hasn't been dead for 75 years, therefore it is, by US law, a copyright violation. I've given a couple of days notice. It will be deleted, unless you can make it useful. User:Zoe|^(talk) 05:09, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Is the prayer's author Sabina? Are we sure? (I haven't read the books.) -- Perfecto  05:41, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

It,s a traditional chant of unknown author, probably it has a couple of centuries old. Maria probably added some verses to it, but hardly could calim authorship. Nanahuatzin 09:45, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

No this is not a "traditional chant of unknown author." Individual curanderas such as Maria Sabina used existing forms, but they embellished them with their own creative and distinctive voices and words. Henry Munn (see the U of California book Maria Sabina: Selections) has shown how Maria Sabina was a unique and distinct talent as an oral poet. And our terms "poem" and "prayer" don't map onto the form she was using. Also, Sabina is not her last name. Maria and Sabina are both first names (all the women in her family were named Maria, and distinguished by the middle name). It doesn't make sense to call her "Maria" or "Sabina" alone.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.179.17.132 (talk • contribs)

Than what, pray tell, was her surname?--Rockero 18:09, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Her surname was Sabina. In Spanish, everyone has two - the father's come first and then the mother's. So her father's surname (like hers) was Sabina, and her mother's was Garcia.

the song by El Tri...?

Espanol:

El personaje de Maria Sabina llegó a mi atención por oir la canción de Alejandro Lora y El Tri (en "Sinfónica"). Fue tan bello y poderoso su cuento de ella que tuve que saber si ella era una persona de verdad. Al investigar un poco encontré tu breve artículo - con escasa mención de la percepción popular de ella por su propia gente en México. ¿Sería posible, al menos, añadir la letra de la canción (y otras, si hay) a tu artículo?

Gracias por su tiempo y consideracion...

Dan Hilbert Broken Arrow, OK

English:

Maria Sabina only recently came to my attention when I heard the song by Alex Lora (from El Tri) on their "Sinfonica" CD about her. He gave such a beautiful and powerful delivery in his story about her that I had to find out if she was a real person. A little investigation turned up your article -- with barely a mention of how she is perceived popularly by her own people in Mexico. Would it be possible, to add the lyrics of the song, or others (if any) to the article?

Thanks for your time and consideration...

Dan Hilbert Broken Arrow, OK—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.30.175.59 (talk • contribs)

Please add whatever material you can gather, but the song lyrics can only be quoted very briefly soas not to contravene copyright law. Haiduc 14:09, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Not teonanácatl to Maria Sabina

There is no such language as "Aztec" or any peole called the "Aztecs." The people of the Valley of Mexico are Mexicans and their language is Náhuatl. Teonanácatl is the agglutinative form of the words teó(ti) (god) and nanácatl (mushroom) - literally "god mushroom." That BS translation as "god's flesh" has been repeated so many times that it's become some sort of urban legend but it's wrong. Maria Sabina never called mushrooms teonanácatl because she spoke Mazatec which isn't even a uto-aztecan language.

Could you give some references to this? According to the book "Plant of the Gods" by Richard Evans Schultes, Albert Hofmann, Christian Rätsch the translation of Teonanácatl is "God's flesh", or "Flesh of the Gods".--80.216.203.152 (talk) 09:33, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Great job on the edit!

Great job on the edit that now includes the reference to El Tri's song about Maria Sabina being "un símbolo de la sabiduría y el amor" ("a symbol of wisdom and love")...!!

If it wouldn't violate any copyright laws, I could offer a translation of the song that would help to explain the curiosity it arouses when heard without the historical or background knowledge of who she was. It tells of Maria as if she were a mythical legendary character of indigenous origin.

Let me know and I'll be glad to email it for use in a possible future edit...

Dirty Dan the Man 17:10, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Sounds ok, please note whether it is your translation or otherwise. Haiduc 17:30, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Maria Sabina did NOT smoke "marihuana"!

"T-shirts bearing her image, smoking a marihuana cigarette, are sold in markets throughout Mexico."

Someone please edit it as I have no clue about how to do it myself, those shirts are in effect sold but the quality of the image is very poor (always black and white), what some believe is "marihuana" can in effect be the stem of a mushroom or a filterless cigarette (she did smoke tobacco) the claim about it being "marihuana" is completely baseless and an offense to her memory as no biography, interview or whatever mentions her supposed use of cannabis. Peace. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.140.211.215 (talk) 20:26, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

File:MARIA SABINA.jpg Nominated for Deletion

	An image used in this article, File:MARIA SABINA.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Media without a source as of 29 July 2011 What should I do?
	A discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. If you feel the deletion can be contested then please do so (commons:COM:SPEEDY has further information). Otherwise consider finding a replacement image before deletion occurs. This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 19:49, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on María Sabina. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100206082651/http://www.rae.es/RAE/Noticias.nsf/Home?ReadForm to http://www.rae.es/RAE/Noticias.nsf/Home?ReadForm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 19:39, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence

"María Sabina received several of them, including Wasson, who became a friend. Many 1960s celebrities were many rumors of celebrities visiting Maria Sabina are simply not true as no photographic evidence or reports of the visits by the “ Rock Stars “ themselves have ever been reported."

This is not the correct tone or approach for Wikipedia. Something is not "simply not true" because there is a lack of photographic evidence. I guess Julius Caesar was never really assassinated because there are no photos of it happening.

Beatles

Is it true that the Beatles visited her? 173.88.246.138 (talk) 23:32, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Recent deletions to updated profile

Hi there User:Carlstak, I noticed you deleted the majority of the updates I made to this profile with the reason "added content sourced to blogs, which are not reliable sources", but there were a few sources that got deleted that weren't blogs, and a broader point I wanted to make about the framing of the article.

The broader point is that I believe it is particularly important to flag that María Sabina was deceived into letting Wasson take part in the sacred ritual, rather than just noting that she contributed to the popularisation of the spread of mushrooms. Not acknowledging this aside from a sentence in the broader 'Life' section does a disservice to how she became involved in the spreading of this sacred knowledge to the Western world, as otherwise the implication is that she willingly contributed to the popularisation of the use of mushrooms, which she didn't. Additionally, some of the "Life" section actually just describes her interactions with Wasson and his actions, which is why I added a section on this to increase accessibility and focus on the pivotal moments of her interactions with him ("Interaction with Western researchers") given how long the "Life" section was getting.

Based on this information, I would also dispute the sentence "While she was initially hospitable to the first of the arrivals" - as she actually initially refused to let Wasson take part in the ritual until he lied to her about his motives and reasons, as admitted by Wasson himself, and noted in Michael Pollan's book. I deleted this sentence because of its inaccuracy, but it has been re-added.

One main source that I added which got deleted was not a blog, but a magazine produced by the Cultural section of the Government of Oaxaca, named 'Indelebles'. They produced an issue on María Sabina's life which provides a lot of valuable information - based on the WP: Reliable Sources guidelines I believe this is a reliable source.

Additionally, the information I added about her being a respected poet has also been deleted, although her poetry has been widely published and she has been widely described as a poet online. Information on her illnesses towards the end of her life, and her death that I added has also been deleted, though this is also widely reported.

Any further insight into why these changes are not suitable would be greatly appreciated, thank you!

Zararah (talk) 17:58, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Hi Zararah. thanks for your courteous reply. Any content you want to add has to be cited to reliable sources per the Manual of Style. The blogs you gave as refs are not reliable sources. WP:USERGENERATED says, "Content from websites whose content is largely user-generated is generally unacceptable. Sites with user-generated content include personal websites, personal and group blogs...". Blogs are not acceptable as reliable sources, unless written by an author acknowledged by peers as authority on the subject; that would usually be someone with academic credentials.

The website that you cited as a source concerning the house where she lived in Huautla de Jimenez is a commercial website for tourists, and therefore spam, even if is published by the Mexican Tourism Office.

Between Worlds: Interpreters, Guides, and Survivors by Frances E. Karttunen is certainly a reliable source. I downloaded the pdf of Indebeles published by the Casa de la Cultura Oaxaqueña and see that it has material written by Jorge Fernando Iturribarría that was published in INAH, 1992, (Estudios de Antropología e Historia No. 33), this is clearly a reliable source. The pdf also has material by Gutierre Tibón, a respected writer on many subjects; we can present his point of view, with attribution, but he should not be cited as an excuse to remove sourced content that contradicts whatever he believes, since he is not an acknowledged authority on history, ethnology, anthropology, linguistics, or any of the subjects he writes about.

You also removed long-established sourced content, and replaced it with content some of which was sourced to other unreliable sources. You should consider that when you add a substantial amount of content to the article with a number of sources, some of which do not meet WP standards of reliability, and such content is removed because of that fact, you cannot expect other editors to do the work of sorting through your content, checking all the given sources and reading enough of them to get a foothold, as well as checking the bona fides of the cited author—essentially doing the work for you.

I suggest you re-add content sourced to reliable sources per our guidelines, but try to find a way to do it without removing longstanding sourced content. If the well-sourced content you want to add conflicts with other well-sourced content, we can present both views by saying "So-and-so says this", and "So-and-so says that".

This is all I have time for now, good luck. Regards, Carlstak (talk) 19:42, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying, User:Carlstak. I've added the content sourced to reliable sources as you suggested. I removed one phrase - "while she was initially hospitable to the visitors" – as this is not what the sources on this interaction say, she actually refused to see them initially, but left the rest in. Thanks for your input!

Zararah (talk) 18:49, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Brava, Zararah, your additions look quite good, and bring a much-needed indigenous perspective to the article. I haven't had a chance to check every little detail, but I applaud your work. I love magic mushrooms, and do them every chance I get, perhaps contrary to María Sabina's philosophy, but I consider them "medicine" for the soul, and see her as a saint. Psilocybin mushrooms have brought a great deal of joy to my life.;-) Regards, Carlstak (talk) 02:44, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

References