Talk:María Lionza (statue)/GA1

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Reviewer: Amitchell125 (talk · contribs) 09:53, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Happy to review this article. Accessing Canals might be a bit of an issue for me, but I can manage without it. Amitchell125 (talk) 09:53, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Assessment

Lead section

Link titular (Titular ruler). Linked to wikt:titular#Adjective Kingsif (talk) 16:26, 9 July 2020 (UTC) Throughout the article you have referred to the road as the Francisco Fajardo freeway. The article in the Spanish Wikipedia is Autopista Francisco Fajardo, the name in Spanish, which I think needs to be included in the statue's article. Most English sources appear to refer to it as a Highway and not a Freeway, and I would amend it throughout the article. Autopista Francisco Fajardo isn't a proper noun, as can be seen by the use of the all-lowercase "autopista" in the Spanish article. 'Autopista' is, like 'highway', 'motorway', and 'autobahn', the umbrella term for all high-speed roads. This is where the article title in English undoubtedly comes from, but it is a freeway, and this specificity is available in American English. Kingsif (talk) 16:26, 9 July 2020 (UTC) Explanation understood, my apologies. Amitchell125 (talk) 17:56, 9 July 2020 (UTC) ... Central University of Venezuela's University City campus in Caracas. - consider splitting the adjoining links by amending to ‘...University City campus of Central University of Venezuela, in Caracas.’  Done Kingsif (talk) 16:28, 9 July 2020 (UTC) ...are worshipped by her followers. - not needed as the lead section already describes the statue as ‘revered’. The rest of that sentence/paragraph makes it clear this is warranted. ...the goddess is shown nude, which is unusual for representations of her. Nevertheless, the statue, and versions of it, are worshiped by her followers. Kingsif (talk) 16:26, 9 July 2020 (UTC) I would consider replacing revered—which can be taken to mean 'worshipped', hence the text looks like it is repeating itself. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:01, 9 July 2020 (UTC) I’ve amended the infobox with a little more detail about the statue – consider adding a map using | mapframe=yes.  Done Kingsif (talk) 16:31, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Background

• Link iconography.

•  Done Kingsif (talk) 16:56, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

• Captions that are a single sentence shouldn’t have a full stop.

• Isn't it that any caption that is a full sentence has a period, but fragments do not need them? Kingsif (talk) 16:56, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Apologies for nor being clearer, the following captions shouldn't have a full stop: The newly-completed Olympic Stadium at the outset of the 1951 Bolivarian Games.; The replica alongside the highway in 2012., as they are sentence fragments. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:13, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

• It needs to be clearer in the caption that the image is connected with part of the section.

• I've tried to do this - it clearly shows how traditional worship occurs, which is discussed in the section, but as the image is not from a source it could be too OR to write much more than explaining what it depicts. What do you think of the new caption? Kingsif (talk) 16:56, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Definitely a better caption. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:17, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

• It might be useful to provide some background information about the goddess. What do you think?

• What kind of background information (María Lionza is the main article) do you think would be useful? This article mentions she is a fertility goddess of an indigenous religion with a cult following and from Yaracuy, which is enough context to understand the history of the statue. Is there anything from the María Lionza article that would add to understanding here? Kingsif (talk) 17:09, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Apologies fro not being clearer. Your suggestions are along the lines of what I was thinking of—reading "The statue is of Venezuelan goddess María Lionza" wasn't really enough for a reader who can't be assumed to know much about the country's culture. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:23, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Should be  Done Kingsif (talk) 22:59, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

• ... living in some of … - 'with some of...'?

• That would just take away from it. Kingsif (talk) 17:09, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:25, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

• ...made many sculptures… - can you be more concise about how many he made?

• If a source did, I could. Kingsif (talk) 17:09, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

• ... then choosing to depict… - consider amending to ‘... before using his experiences to depict…’.

• Sources don't say that. Kingsif (talk) 17:09, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Keeping more closely to the source's text, I would copy edit the sentence to improve the prose, to something like, 'In the 1920s, after spending eight years living in some of western Venezuela's indigenous communities, he chose to depict...'. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:32, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

It was in the 1920s that he spent those eight years, so no. I've rephrased a little while not saying something else. Kingsif (talk) 22:59, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

• …also involved in a movement… - why also?

• Because it is in addition to his time living in the indigenous communities. Kingsif (talk) 17:09, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

He was involved in the movement years after he lived with indigenous communities—to some readers also here could be understood to mean 'at the same time', and a reader might have to self-correct after reading in the 1940s.. The sentence needs to be clearer for this reason. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:42, 9 July 2020 (UTC).

Moved the "in the 1940s". Kingsif (talk) 22:59, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

• …noted that in the religious cult of María Lionza, idols were not traditionally used, with most worship occurring in natural spots up to the early 20th century. - citation needed.

• The citation at the end? Kingsif (talk) 17:09, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll check when the page numbering issue is addressed. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:44, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

• …grew in the 1950s… - amend to ‘...grew in numbers the 1950s...’.

• Singular 'number', because that's the phrase, but  Done Kingsif (talk) 17:09, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

• … are varied… - ‘...vary…’.

•  Done Kingsif (talk) 17:09, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

• Ref 2a, b, c and all refer to several pages in Alfredo and Jiménez. It needs to be clearer which pages go with which citation.

Not essential for GA. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:48, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

• Ref 3 (Perez) is not a suitable source for GA.

• Explain? Self-published sources are acceptable when the publisher (here, Perez) would be a reliable source for the information. He's a feminist artist from Caracas, his view on the statue is a notable one. Kingsif (talk) 17:09, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Can you point me in the direction of a source for information about Perez? According to WP:SPS, "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications." I probably need more than your word about his notability in relation to the topic, for this source to be included. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:07, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Artist profile I found, but there's a lot of 'Carlos Perez's out there, so trawling through news for the right guy is proving exhausting. Kingsif (talk) 22:59, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

If there's no evidence available that Perez is a published author, then Ref 3 needs to be replaced, or the text relating to it removed. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:10, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Very well, removed. @Amitchell125: this section should be done now. Kingsif (talk) 20:02, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

• Ref 6 (Canals) looks as if there are ranges of pages to read out of interest regarding the cult of María Lionza. The reference should be more specific, allowing me the text to be verified.

• I just added page numbers, I'll go back and do it again soon? Kingsif (talk) 17:09, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

@Amitchell125: I've improved the refs, this should be done. Kingsif (talk) 23:35, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Construction and location – Olympic Stadium

Link Bolivarian Games in the caption. Olympic Stadium – why not use the Venezuelan name, Estadio Olímpico? Because it just means 'Olympic Stadium'. Kingsif (talk) 17:14, 9 July 2020 (UTC) Understood. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:10, 9 July 2020 (UTC) Could Synthesis of the Arts be linked with Gesamtkunstwerk? No, because as the article says, it's Villanueva's own vision and theory (see Carlos Raúl Villanueva#Synthesis of the arts - the link would go there, but because of the lack of detail there it would be relatively pointless). Kingsif (talk) 17:14, 9 July 2020 (UTC) Understood. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:11, 9 July 2020 (UTC) …the Olympic flame… - surely the flame is only named in this way for the Olympic Games themselves? The source. Says. Olympic flame. You've been encouraging OR throughout this review. Kingsif (talk) 17:14, 9 July 2020 (UTC) OK, agreed, because of the source, but it still sounds strange to me. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:18, 9 July 2020 (UTC) …There is another monumental statue, Francisco Narváez' El Atleta, that is also located by the Olympic Stadium and was made in 1951. - this needs to be copy edited to something like ‘El Atleta, another statue made by Francisco Narváez for the 1951 Games, is also located by the Olympic Stadium.’. Or we could keep the focus of the sentence on the subject of this article. Kingsif (talk) 17:14, 9 July 2020 (UTC) I agree. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:22, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Construction and location – Francisco Fajardo freeway

Amend link to Catholic Church to Catholic Church in Venezuela.  Done Kingsif (talk) 17:25, 9 July 2020 (UTC) Link World Heritage Site (and unlink it in the rest of the text).  Done Kingsif (talk) 17:25, 9 July 2020 (UTC) The first sentence needs to be edited so it makes more sense. At present it sounds as if the roads changed because of the Games. Amend to something like ‘As Caracas grew during the 1950s, the road system had to be expanded and the new Francisco Fajardo freeway was built, passing close by the stadium.’. Just added 'In the years' to the front, but it achieves the same, so  Done Kingsif (talk) 17:25, 9 July 2020 (UTC) The university had been asking… - ‘The university asked…’. Go revise the differences between tenses? Those have whole different meanings, and your suggestion is wrong. Kingsif (talk) 17:25, 9 July 2020 (UTC) See what you mean. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:31, 9 July 2020 (UTC) Pérez Jiménez also shared the concerns… - should probably read ‘Pérez Jiménez shared its concern:…’. The rest of this sentence currently makes little sense, and needs to be restructured.  Done Kingsif (talk) 23:38, 11 July 2020 (UTC) … the statue is generally seen as part of the campus environs … - this can be edited out, as it’s stated elsewhere. not done - generally adds to meaning where it appears. Here, to say that 'yes, it's on a highway but is still included in the campus'. Elsewhere, the mention is about the Heritage commission, in discussion of making a replica and breaking the original (someone else did, not the university). Saying different things. Kingsif (talk) 23:38, 11 July 2020 (UTC) Understood. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:33, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

More comments to follow. Amitchell125 (talk) 16:40, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

@Amitchell125: Or find a new reviewer. It's nothing personal, just that between poor suggestions regarding grammar and asking for insertion of OR, your comments are generally missing the mark and I don't feel the article will be suitably improved/reviewed for GA. Kingsif (talk) 17:25, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

@Kingsif: I've got this far, and wouldn't normally consider abandoning a review simply because the nominator and I are struggling to agree on some of the comments. I think one problem, apart from being a British reviewer working on a Venezuelan article written in American English, is that I'm attempting to get you to edit an article that needed to be checked more thoroughly before it was nominated, considering how much experience you have as a reviewer. I will reply to your queries, and give apologies if my comments are mistaken. Amitchell125 (talk) 17:53, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, I don't see it so much as a disagreement, and I'll happily work on more comments you have. But my worry was that you might not be combing through it enough/in the right ways? Kingsif (talk) 18:09, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Appearance

• Link pelvis in the Olympic Stadium section, and unlink in this section.

 Done Kingsif (talk) 23:43, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

• Link pedestal.

Don't most people know what a pedestal is? Kingsif (talk) 23:43, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Although you might imagine the word is known, it shouldn't be assumed. It's appropriate that the part of a statue is linked. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:20, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

 Done Kingsif (talk) 20:03, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

• (19' 4.25" x 3' 11.25" x 12' 3.25") – imo 0.01 inch is too precise for a statue, consider amending the dimensions using {{convert|5.9|m|ftin|frac=4}} x {{convert|1.2|m|ftin|frac=4}} x {{convert|3.7|m|ftin|frac=4}} to 5.9 metres (19 ft 4+1⁄4 in) x 1.2 metres (3 ft 11+1⁄4 in) x 3.7 metres (12 ft 1+3⁄4 in).

It's not down to 0.01 inch, though, it's saying a quarter of an inch in numerical form. That's the dimensions in the source, and while rounding can be good for millions of TV viewers, taking measurements of a work of art is something done with precision. Kingsif (talk) 23:43, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

I disagree, a number like 4.25 is down to 0.01, as you put it, whereas $4{\tfrac {1}{4}}$ is specifically directing the reader to think the measurement is accurate to the nearest quarter of of an inch. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:28, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Well, the point still stands that this is a precise measurement of a work of art, it shouldn't be rounded anyway. Kingsif (talk) 20:03, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Please go with me on this one. If a length of 5.9m (accurate to the nearest 10cm) is converted into feet and inches, you should really convert to the nearest inch (19 ft 4in), or quarter of an inch at a pinch ($19{\tfrac {1}{4}}$), and not use decimals to 2 decimal places. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:44, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

@Amitchell125: 3O? Kingsif (talk) 20:51, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

• … made out of mannequins… - I’m unclear how something can be made out of mannequins.

Changed to "made from" - I guess they take a mannequin and paint/refigure it. Kingsif (talk) 23:43, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Replacement

The first sentence is similar to information provided in the Construction and location section. Consider mentioning the protection issue in only one part of the article. Responded above. Kingsif (talk) 23:49, 11 July 2020 (UTC) … to protect the original. - consider amending to ‘...so that the original statue could be protected.’ or something similar, to improve the prose.  Done Kingsif (talk) 23:49, 11 July 2020 (UTC) ... described the replica as "ridiculous". - worth mentioning what aspect of the replica was ridiculous, according to de Tovar? From the source: "una «ridícula réplica plástica»", "a 'ridiculous plastic replica'". Just the replica. Not an aspect, just its existence. Kingsif (talk) 23:49, 11 July 2020 (UTC) Objections... ...suggest that… - suggest to which people? The sentence needs to be amended to avoid it looking like an editorial comment. Added attribution (IAM Venezuela) Kingsif (talk) 23:49, 11 July 2020 (UTC) …instead push to move … - needs copy editing. Changed to "would instead like to move" Kingsif (talk) 23:49, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Legacy

Link sexualization. It would probably be "goddess sexualization", as a concept (which doesn't have an article). And no, we do not need to link every word over three syllables, this isn't an interactive dictionary. It's basically just the word 'sex' with some common morphology, people know what it means. Kingsif (talk) 23:53, 11 July 2020 (UTC) Consider red linking Diety sexualization (or something similar), the article on Sexualization as it stands is not broad enough to be relevant here. Also, the phrase "a process of goddess sexualization seen in many religious cults" needs some clarification (what 'process' is involved, and which cults could Canals be referring to)?. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:41, 14 July 2020 (UTC) The process (p.77) seems to be making her appear more feminine, and I wouldn't want to speculate on other cults. Kingsif (talk) 19:47, 14 July 2020 (UTC) Understood. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:29, 14 July 2020 (UTC) ...Canals said… and ...which he says… in the same sentence. Improve the English by sticking to one tense. Rephrased because of meaning. Kingsif (talk) 23:53, 11 July 2020 (UTC) More comments to follow. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:55, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

References
Link Tomás Straka; Hent de Vries.  Done Kingsif (talk) 23:55, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

On hold

I'm placing the article on hold for a week, until 19 July. Thanks for your work so far, Kingsif. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:00, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

@Amitchell125: I've done or responded to everything :) Refs all separated for you to look through. Kingsif (talk) 23:56, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

@Amitchell125: Done/responded to all Kingsif (talk) 20:04, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

We're about there

With the exception of a few points—easily sorted—the article is now in great shape. Passing now. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:54, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

@Amitchell125: Thanks for the pass, for sticking with the review - do you want to continue on the points raised? If we move some questions to the talk page it might get a few more voices from the Venezuela and public art projects? Kingsif (talk) 21:07, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Congratulations on passing, the article would need to be discussed by others if you were interested in getting it to FA, and if you moved some questions to the talk page it would be a good start. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:16, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.