Talk:Manosphere

Intro

The intro is worded in such a way as to imply that men's right activists and father's right's activists promote misogyny. That's not right at all. BeyondHalf (talk) 21:09, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Do you have a specific suggestion about how to change the wording, and reliable sources to support that suggestion? Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 21:13, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

"The manosphere is a group of loosely associated websites, blogs, forums, authors and writers all concerned with masculinity and men's issues, and includes input from the MRM, pick-up artists, anti-feminists, and fathers' rights activists that are mainly for men." Should fit in well. Nowhere is there any promotion of violence or hatred of either women or feminism. Daydreamdirty (talk) 12:35, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Your suggestion ignores the well-documented violence and hatred associated with the manosphere. You are proposing a whitewash. Binksternet (talk) 15:48, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

wikipedia itself is the one associating men's right activists and father's rights activist with the so called "manosphere" though? 24.34.64.221 (talk) 06:11, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

There is also violence and hatred associated with the radical feminism, yet the wikipedia as source is muck more mild toward this issue. I sense serious bias here! 82.131.14.96 (talk) 12:18, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

[citation needed]. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 12:49, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

The evidence is literally in the article. DenverCoder9 (talk) 08:44, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Citing a wikipedia article conflicts with Wikipedia:No original research. You'll instead need to find a reputable published source to back up your claim.

I look forward to what you find Therealteal (talk) 17:10, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Ive read this entire thread.You are correct. Your suggestion for the first paragraph was spot on. Wikipedia is using circular logic. The entire site is extreme left now. Too bad, at first, it was a valuable resource. 174.141.144.209 (talk) 02:11, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not the extreme left. Do you have suggested edits in mind? Therealteal (talk) 02:23, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Correct. My reply to this topic pointing out the obvious hypocrisy of the green-light editors of WP was reverted (deleted). Because, according to Sangdeboeuf, wasn't "constructive". Even the co-founder of the site points out how biased it is. There's no point in discussing "reliable resources". If it doesn't match their narrative, it's "unreliable". Vendena (talk) 02:15, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure you meant to reply to me. However, I looked at that comment you made that was reverted. I think it's a fundamental misunderstanding of how Wikipedia works.

If the overwhelming majority of the academic community says that gravity isn't real, Wikipedia will also say that gravity isn't real. There isn't independent research allowed here (See Wikipedia:No original research). We instead write exactly what the experts say. I hope that clears things up

Therealteal (talk) 02:26, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

No reliable sources are needed when the claim is vague, as the subjects being called misogynist object to the claim and constitute refutation to that the claim that they are misogynists. The claim that anit-feminism and championing fathers right is akint o misogyny is a sexist, misandrist in and of itself. Those "sources" that are used are not credible and are put forth by feminists who are anti men's rights 73.250.237.93 (talk) 20:05, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree. In no way does the manosphere promote misogyny. Mst5506 (talk) 08:55, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Articles are based on published, reliable sources, not users' personal beliefs. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 09:19, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Exactly. Please keep your personal feelings out of this Mst5506. --Gilgul Kaful (talk) 11:37, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

So should we add examples of mysoandry in articles about feminism? 31.178.7.216 (talk) 10:07, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Sure, if you can back it up with reliable sources, then please do Therealteal (talk) 03:56, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

It is obviously slanted in its intro. You can make an argument for including specific instances of violence from individuals associated with the manospehere without including that as the top description. The idea that this 'is based on evidence and specific references' is ridiculous. As another commenter alluded to, you could list dozens of cited articles about environmental activists who have embraced violence without concluding that violence is a defining feature of the environmental movement, or that the thesis statement for the 'environmentalism' page should focus on violence. 207.44.77.58 (talk) 12:36, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

We follow the reliable sources, and the preponderance of sources to describe the 'manosphere' in the way our article does. MrOllie (talk) 12:39, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

We are talking about the NPOV issues in the intro. You are clearly quoting agenda sources. But first, let's take a look at your phrasing just now:

"Preponderance"? Please do not over state. In that introduction there are 4 component sources to it's citation index, currently index 1.

Hodapp (2017), p. xv;

Lumsden (2019), pp. 98–99;

Jane (2017), p. 662;

Marwick & Lewis (2017), pp. 9, 13

2 of the 4 cited sources, the last two, contains the citation quote (supplied) involving the word "misogyny". Not a Plethora.

Surely you're not inviting other agenda sources to counter these. Wikipedia seems to not ever be able to handle NPOV issues responsibly.

𝓦𝓲𝓴𝓲𝓹𝓮𝓭𝓲𝓪𝓘𝓼𝓝𝓸𝓽𝓟𝓮𝓮𝓻𝓡𝓮𝓿𝓲𝓮𝔀𝓮𝓭-𝓟𝓮𝓮𝓻𝓡𝓮𝓿𝓲𝓮𝔀𝓮𝓭𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼𝓡𝓮𝓿𝓲𝓮𝔀𝓮𝓭𝓑𝔂𝓟𝓮𝓮𝓻𝓼𝓞𝓷𝓵𝔂 (talk) 02:14, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

The lead section is a summary of the rest of the article. The rest of the article expounds at length on the movement's misogyny, including numerous sources. NPOV expressly does not mean WP:FALSEBALANCE. Also 'agenda sources' is not a thing. MrOllie (talk) 02:23, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

If by "agenda sources" you mean the many scholarly writings about the manosphere which have been cited in the article, then you are greatly diminishing your argument's effectiveness. You seem to be saying that "agenda sources" are biased, that they are activist sources seeking change. But Wikipedia holds that scholars writing about their topic of study are among the most expert of observers. They are the highest sources we can use. Binksternet (talk) 02:28, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

The point in studying the manosphere is to look at the misogyny and related ideologies within it, that's really why the term exists, so I'm not sure why you want to remove the ideologies from the lead. You suggest that violence related to radical feminism is glossed over compared to the manosphere article. If that is true, it'd be because of an issue with sourcing, not with Wikipedia. Radical feminism is not movement with the purpose of studying for "violence and hatred associated with radical feminism". —Panamitsu (talk) 02:51, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps that should be clearly stated in the lead. That manosphere isn't the whole but rather subsets inside those groups. Daniel Souza (talk) 15:43, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

That's not what Sugiura says: "The manosphere encompasses a wide range of groups from MRAs and Fathers’ Rights Activists (FRAs), to PUAs and to the more extremist MGTOW and incels." The groups exist within the manosphere. Binksternet (talk) 16:16, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

That is still true

It's still being edited in a way that wants to purposefully say it's all about hating women.

Even when an edit says it's nuancing, it's not good enough. The supposed « reliable » sources aren't reliable, that's the whole issue. I don't see why you should need a « reliable » source to give some nuance at such a contentious issue.

Even the left wing is creating spaces to talk about men's rights. So it's already wrong to say that it's associated with far-right. Men's rights activist know that the vast majority of left-wingers and right-wingers do not care about men's rights, so to associate them with any extreme side is already wrong.

And we aren't even asking to say the opposite, we're asking to give nuance so it can give people the tools to make their own decision, that there is some contrast to have.

Instead, it does look like you aren't interested in any of that. The comparison with gravity is also very wrong and intellectually dishonest. We're talking about social issues, even the perspective of Andrew Tate should be considered seriously (as much as I dislike him), maybe we should cite « the myth of male power » and then you'll be able to give it nuance ? Or you'll just brush it off as unreliable because it doesn't fit your narrative ?

You're basically saying that this whole page is written as if it was saying that the sky is blue. It's really not, otherwise this wouldn't be a contentious topic. Even the flat earth isn't contentious. You can say all you want that « this is based on what experts say », but you feign to ignore that we know you are choosing which « experts ».

It's true that there are parts that are involved in hate, but it's also true that there are parts that are involved in virtue with the goal to empower men. The issue is that, in itself, is contentious, and not the fact that there are both good and bad actors.

So there's no wrong in contrasting with the bad side of things, but we're also asking for the good sides to not be buried under all of it.

The last edit is seeping with bias, it's really badly written. I don't understand why people who would be focused with « academic precision » would be fine with something like that. StarZax (talk) 17:29, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

The supposed « reliable » sources aren't reliable, that's the whole issue. The article mainly uses mainstream scholarly sources, which are the preferred kind. Dismissively saying they "aren't reliable" without explanation is pretty insulting to the users who put a lot of time and effort into evaluating sources for reliability.

I don't see why you should need a « reliable » source to give some nuance at such a contentious issue. Because Wikipedia does not publish original research. Sticking to published, mainstream sources is necessary to maintain a neutral point of view.

Maybe we should cite « the myth of male power » and then you'll be able to give it nuance ? Or you'll just brush it off as unreliable because it doesn't fit your narrative ? The Myth of Male Power is a book that exists to promote certain beliefs about gender and politics. It is a polemic, not a work of serious scholarship.

Even the flat earth isn't contentious. It is contentious according to a small group of fringe authors. Which is kind of the problem here as well.

You feign to ignore that we know you are choosing which « experts ». Of course we choose expert sources, based on criteria laid out in Wikipedia's verifiability policy. We avoid fringe sources as well as those that fail to demonstrate factual accuracy. No one here is pretending otherwise.

There's no wrong in contrasting with the bad side of things, but we're also asking for the good sides to not be buried under all of it. Giving both sides equal validity is not how we achieve neutrality. Wikipedia doesn't engage in disputes over what is "good" or "bad". We just summarize what the most reliable sources say. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 00:17, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Got it. Up to us to distribute reliable sources, then we'll discuss and see if you deem them reliable or not. StarZax (talk) 00:37, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

As others have said in this discussion, reliability is determined by community consensus. Some people interpret this as a sinister conspiracy to suppress The Truth™. While I'm sure that helps those people feel special, more productive users usually make an effort to understand and apply Wikipedia's reliable sources guideline, which is there for anyone to read. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 00:54, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

I just was a bit sarcastic on this. Can't wait to discuss all that when it'll be the time. StarZax (talk) 01:00, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Concurring with this statement - the introduction of the page is clearly intended to associate mens' advocacy groups (i.e. groups simply seeking to address male-specific issues in the interest of males) with groups that seek to belittle or limit the rights of women, in a way that comes off as biased. As a reminder, it is illegal under US federal law to take action as a business/organization that intentionally and materially affects clients/members/employees on the basis of sex, except in certain circumstances. When you cite articles in which the authors are literally using sexist/hate speech (several cite "male toxicity" and similar sexist statements) within their body, you are, according to US law, simply looking at an article whose author has not yet been sued for libel. For example, if we could define "manosphere" as a formal/legal term and included it in a contract, that contract would be immediately null/invalid because you cannot intentionally include a definition/condition that is already illegal under US law. There is no such condition placed upon eligibility for being published in an academic paper, but I have to believe that we collectively have enough common sense to conclude that these are not valid sources when their content already willfully ignores existing US law. Perpetuating this kind of source article is not morally ok simply because Wikepedia is protected from libel law, and at best it's lazy. At the very least, if we are going to cite academic papers that contain what can only be described as sexist slurs (which is already a very good indicator of bias), it's fair/necessary to at least point out that if the authors' conclusions are correct, the perpetrating male-advocacy groups are all acting illegally under US law but have not been otherwise sued/convicted (i.e. a very logical reason to question the credibility of the authors). My credentials: I am a senior commercial insurance broker, leading the Management Liability and Employment Practices Liability practices at the largest insurance firm in the country that serves non-profits (which includes quite a lot of mens' advocacy groups). I am published on this subject. Black $heep (talk) 23:55, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

When the reliable sources are critical, so too will be the Wikipedia article, since that is what our content policies require. We are not interested in WP:FALSEBALANCE here. Also see WP:YESBIAS. There is nothing illegal about the language used by the cited sources. MrOllie (talk) 00:29, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Note that Black $heep has been blocked as WP:NOTHERE. WP:NLT would also apply, but even without this, it's still a very poor argument. Grayfell (talk) 01:26, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Black sheep is actually entirely correct. The lead is clearly trying to conflate the manosphere with hate, which alters the readers prespective from the beginning. You should also note that wikipedia admins determine which source is reliable. That reliability source list can very easily be skewed depending on who is judging, and given the plehtora of evidence of wikipedia bias, that is precisely what is going on. 47.230.49.22 (talk) 04:26, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

The reliability of sources is not determined by individual admins. It is determined by community consensus, for which there is a wide variety of views. —Panamitsu (talk) 05:57, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Absolutely, which is why it's pretty ridiculous to have this page written as if it was as true as the sky is blue.

You perfectly said it yourself : there is a wide variety of views. That's what people have been talking about for years on this page, and the latest reverts show it's going backwards. StarZax (talk) 17:33, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

I recommend you check out Wikipedia's page about self-published texts being used as a source.

Therealteal (talk) 17:51, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

By definition, a reverted change results in restoration of status quo. It doesn't make the article go "backwards". It's perfectly correct to revert non-neutral changes such as this recent one by Zxgnarlz, who was trying to whitewash the topic and remove the very well-supported misogyny aspect. Binksternet (talk) 17:58, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

I really don't see how it is white washing, but anyway

I guess I wasn't clear enough, but that doesn't matter much. Nobody is arguing that there is, indeed, a matter of misogyny. And it was still cited, while supporting the credentials of the sources. Therefore I see no point in arguing since it's not going to change anyway. StarZax (talk) 00:36, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

There is a wide variety of views on whether aliens built the pyramids. Treating all viewpoints as equally valid would be WP:FALSEBALANCE. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 00:38, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

So that's what I meant : we lack the numbers, it's still considered « fringe » so it's mislabelled. Wikipedia will adapt afterward. Got it. StarZax (talk) 00:40, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Consensus is not a head count. Once again, go read Wikipedia:Reliable sources. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 00:58, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

I think you misunderstood what I meant or I wasn't clear.

I understand it's not just about numbers. It's about producing enough reliable sources. That's what I meant by using the term « fringe » as I do understand that the number itself isn't a justification.

I take advantage of this post to ask you about another one (because I can't find an edit button and I don't want to spam you with multiple discourses at the same time)

What makes you think that Will Pharell's work is about promoting beliefs more than anything else ? I see that he has the credentials, is it because it has been critiqued ? According to the Reliable sources page, I guess it's the usage by other sources that makes it unreliable to Wikipedia's standards ?

"Giving both sides equal validity is not how we achieve neutrality."

I don't think I've been asking for equal validity either. I asked for it to be mentioned, but I figured that I probably just don't have the same definition of manosphere and mine got mixed with « men's movement ». So fair enough, I understand that Wikipedia reflects a consensus and it's undeniable that it doesn't matter if I think that the term manosphere shouldn't imply that there's only bad, it still does for various reasons. StarZax (talk) 02:03, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Warren Farrell is described by his publisher as a "best-selling author and leader in both the early women's and current men's movement" rather than as an academic or researcher. However, Wikipedia doesn't really care about academic credentials. Instead we look for sources that have been vetted by the scholarly community via publication in peer-reviewed journals or by mainstream academic presses.

The Myth of Male Power is published by Berkley Books, which is known for science fiction, not by a specialist academic publisher. The introduction contains a lot of vague language about how the book is a "leap forward" and will "create growth", which are ideological rather than scholarly goals. Farrell literally claims that the statistics he presents are less important than whether the book "rings true" and "reflects men's feelings"(!)

It is correct that citation by other reliable sources is a good indicator of reliability. The Myth of Male Power has been generally panned by scholars in the field of gender studies: [1][2][3] —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 07:17, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Gender and Technoculture 320-03

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 January 2024 and 10 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jbrst201 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Momlife5 (talk) 03:57, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

24 June 2024

WP:NOTAFORUM. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 02:09, 2 July 2024 (UTC) (non-admin closure)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I'm no Andrew Tate cultist, but holy sh*t, some of this is so biased I can feel the blue hair dye leaching through my screen. "ongoing systemic misogyny within a patriarchal culture?" or "The idea of misandry (hatred of or prejudice against men) is commonly invoked, both as an equivalent to misogyny and a way to deny the existence of institutionalized sexism.[27] However, Sugiura writes that "there is little evidence to show that misandry is an issue affecting men's lives"." Who is Sugiura? How is this random speaker in any way relevant? How are these assertions, which are politically contentious, neutral enough to be written here? The article then goes on about rates of violent crime in a way that seems improper for the context. Ultimately, there are a great number of random authors cited, like Sugiura, as saying some extremely biased things, which is perfectly acceptable, but such statements must include the opposing opinion to give a clear picture of what is actually going on. 172.56.17.54 (talk) 05:12, 24 June 2024 (UTC) That would be Dr. Lisa Sugiura, an associate professor at the University of Portsmouth; someone with actual academic credentials in this field. See WP:DUE and WP:FALSEBALANCE; we do not have to "include the opposing opinion" when the two do not have similar support or credibility in the reliable sources. As such, if you want to include more material that suggests that the manosphere is *not* a misogynist hellscape, you'll need to find reliable sources that support that contention (good luck with that). Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 12:23, 24 June 2024 (UTC) Yes it's amazing how you have taken information from all the leading experts for this and feminism to ensure no bias of opinion. Like how studies show feminism has led to the growing breakdown of the family unit, increasing child poverty and huge increases in mental illness in women. Wikipedia as always being completely non biased in their choices of what to show. 82.40.205.30 (talk) 18:19, 1 July 2024 (UTC) If you've got reliable sources that you think support a viewpoint that's not being reflected here, you're welcome to suggest edits based on them. But if you're just looking to gripe about feminism, I would suggest a personal blog. WP:NOTFORUM. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 18:30, 1 July 2024 (UTC) Dr Alok Kanojia, Dr Jordan Peterson, Dr Steve Stewart-Williams - all psychologists that support men's issues, Louise Perry (former feminist journalist) who when "seeking the enemy" learnt the truth about mens issues, Marilyn York - attorney for men who points out inequality in the legal system, the Institute of National Statistics has many examples of mens issues from poor performance in school being linked to single mother households, along with teen pregnancy and mental illness for girls. They also link mens suicide rates as the leading cause of death for men under 45. There's the fact that when the push for women to be considered legally equal to men in the US constitution feminists opposed this as they realised this would allow women to be drafted. There is so much factual data out there saying young men are at breaking point and need help, not ridicule, while support for men is almost non-existent is causing a literal epidemic. The manosphere is NOT about women bashing, it's about learning about and taking action on mens issues. It's not saying "women are bad and should get no support" but instead saying "neither are men, and they need support too." I know Wikipedia states itself to not be a reliable source of information but you could at least TRY to look into something fully before writing it off as "women bashing" 82.40.205.30 (talk) 19:59, 1 July 2024 (UTC) Again, you're welcome to suggest edits based on specific sources (not vague handwaving at individual scholars). Wikipedia:Increase your chances might be useful as to how to craft a edit request. As for "women bashing", the only one who's used that wording here is you. I will note that much of what you're describing sounds more like the topic covered at men's rights movement, which goes into topics including military conscription, suicide, and so on. The manosphere is a related, but not synonymous, topic. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 20:34, 1 July 2024 (UTC) I will do, but I suggest you consider your approach to messages like these. Deliberate antagonism such as that in the first reply to the OP is not in the best interests of a site that is attempting to give accurate and non biased information online. The equivalent would be the entry for feminism stating it is an idealogy that believes men are at best disposable and at worse not worth the air they breath. There are medicals on both sides but that does not mean that they are the majority or even that there should be sides. 82.40.205.30 (talk) 21:10, 1 July 2024 (UTC) Not medicals, Radicals lol. Good old autocorrect 82.40.205.30 (talk) 21:11, 1 July 2024 (UTC) Again, you seem to be treating the manosphere as though it is simply the male counterpart to feminism. The term "manosphere" refers to a group of specific online subcultures; if you are looking for the general topic of men's rights, you might have more success at the articles on masculism or the men's rights movement. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 21:17, 1 July 2024 (UTC)