Talk:Mana (Oceanian cultures)/Archive 1

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This may sound kinda silly--I originally thought of it as a joke, but now I think I may be right--does da Funk qualify as mana? See P Funk mythology. It's not part of any religion (though it is, kind of, part of a belief system), but I don't think mana necessarily has to be (alchemy isn't) and it does fit the definition given (especially after I clarified it a moment ago). Does anybody else have an opinion on this? Tokerboy 21:37 Oct 17, 2002 (UTC)

The concepts you listed as Hindu myth are active parts of its philosophy and Vedic religion. Also, mana doesn't correspond to rta or maya, the former being Vedic order and harmony and the latter being a lesser reality and the creative force of the world often envisioned as the Mother Goddess of Hinduism. --LordSuryaofShropshire 20:38, Apr 2, 2004 (UTC)

AllRefer.com states "Robert Marett studied among the Melanesians of the South Seas, noting the concept of mana, or supernatural power independent of any soul. He described the belief in such a force as animatism." I think that info should be incorporated in the article, I'm just too lazy to do it right now :) TowerDragon 09:21, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Changes made by User:Ex ottoyuhr

You cannot just change things in a page, that drastically, at will. If you dislike the existence of other meanings of mana, then divide the page into sections. But wikipedia is about information, and you cannot simply destroy huge amounts without cause. Secondly, you added in Vedic Mythology when rta is not myth, but an active Vedic belief sustained in Hinduism. Vedic mythology refers to stories and legends no longer a part of active belief. Also, rta is nothing like mana, and the ideas are completely different. Please consult with others before making such major changes. --LordSuryaofShropshire 19:32, Apr 6, 2004 (UTC)

I'm not sure I agree with you. It seems User:Ex ottoyuhr was trying to clarify things by his changes. I DO see, from your latest addition, that there is a conflict now between "mana" (presented as a Christian word and concept) and "manna" (Jewish?). I do not know the answer, but are you saying that "Mana from heaven" is an old Christian concept independent of both the Polynesian and Jewish terms/concepts? - Marshman 00:04, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC). I think I see what the problem may be. Mana is a Polynesian word describing a certain concept. It has acquired modern usage in English (and Spanish) to refer to those or similar concepts in those languages. Hence, it is a loan word from Polynesian. Therefore the discussion should somehow reflect those realities. "Mana from heaven" would seem to be a new wording for an idea that had to be expressed differently in historical times. Am I on the right track? - Marshman 00:15, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Well, come on. He/She deleted whole sections of valid information in the attempt at clarity. that's why I said he/she should have considered, in order to clarify "divid[ing] the page into sections." That would have certainly clarified, but also retained the very interesting mix of ideas and cultures that have the word 'mana' in their vocabularies. Also, as for the "Mana from Heaven," it's a pretty old English usage, and Christian to boot. It's very well known, but I frankly don't know whence it comes etymologically. I'll think (by tomorrow evening) of a way, unless you do it first, of splitting the page into different sections that allow for info from different cultures without imposing on the apparently original meaning of mana in Polynesian tradition. --LordSuryaofShropshire 00:33, Apr 7, 2004 (UTC)

I did not see that much deleted, but a lot changed or added. Sounds like you can put back anything deleted that should not have been. Anyway, I reordered things along the line I think you are suggesting. I left in some conflicts (is it "mana" or "manna"?) that I am not qualified to resolve. I realize "Mana from heaven" is well known, and my only real complaint is that where it is "mana" as a loan word from Polynesian, it would be very helpful to know how the concept was worded before "mana" was inserted. I think the article makes well the point that this is a concept shared by many cultures. But it cannot be that these cultures all called in mana or that early Christian doctrine used that terminology. - Marshman 00:55, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

______

Manna: http://www.world-destiny.org/a2livrec.htm

I found this study on an evangelist's page, and needless to say he's crazy (thinks Adam birthed the white race etc.): but here's a great tract, pretty long, with his explanation of Manna; :

Mana is a common word used by the Bedouin in the Sinai peninsula for a sweet, sticky, honey-like substance exuding from the tarfa tree, the tamarix gallica mannifera in late May and JuneBDB. The Egyptian word mannu was used for, and local residents still regard this substance as, a dew falling from the sky. On the far side of the globe Australian natives use the word manna for a secretion of certain species of Eucalyptus, while in France the Briancon name manna is used for a secretion of the common larch. In the Calabria region of southern Italy and in Sicily a similar substance is obtained from incisions in the bark of the manna-ash, the fraxinus ornusAE.

The question is how this word came to be used across the face of the planet in common application to substances exuding from trees, plants, and shrubs, by different people speaking different languages. Certainly, there must have been a common influence somewhere in the distant past which would provide a foundation for such identical word applications.

But this is not the only evidence for a strange substance called manna. When the wandering Israelites tribes were short on food they went to Moses for help, Exod 16. He appealed to God, who then supplied manna, 16:31, which came down from the sky at night and lay on the ground. In 16:14 it is described as a fine, flake-like substance which lay as hoarfrost on the ground. In 16:31 it is described as coriander seed, white, and with a taste like wafers made with honey.

According to Exodus 16:15 the people went to Moses with the question Man hua?, thus asking in Hebrew "What is it?" Cognates of the Hebrew man are found in Arabic man = "Who?," Ethiopic manu = "What?," and late Aramaic man = "What?" From the similarity of the words some persons assume the manna from the sky derived from the man of the Semitic "what" or "who."

The similarity of manna to man has confused the phonetic and semantic connection between these two different applications, one as the name for the strange substance, and the other as the word used for the interrogative. Are they perhaps related in some way linguistically?

Olden people, accustomed to living close to their sources of food, intimate with nature, and feeding off the land, would not confuse the exudation of a sticky substance from a shrub plant with flakes of a fine white substance lying around on the ground. Only academic scholars, divorced from reality, would make such suggestions. If the manna from heaven were exudation from shrubs the Exodus account would have described it that way. Therefore, use of the word manna must carry a meaning which goes beyond the common application to exudations from shrubs or plants. It carries a general significance not previously recognized.

Research into this word produces highly curious results. The path of etymology is not clear by any meansBDB,SEC,AHCL. Refer to the tabulation. The central concept behind these varied inflections, and their applications, is that of "a part" or a "portion." This Semitic word found manifold uses throughout the world, now buried in the mists of the past.

THE HEBREW WORD "MANA" AND ITS MANY INFLECTED FORMS

In Hebrew, mana is a basic root word. It means "to weigh out," "to count," "to allot," "to set aside," "to assign," and "to enumerate." Manah, a related word, when used as a verb means "to number, count, reckon, or assign." When used as a noun it means "a part or portion." The Assyrian cognate was manu = "to assign or apportion." Note the phonetic similarity to the Egyptian mannuBDB,SEC,AHCL.

A slightly different inflection, maneh or mina, meant a common measure, "a specific part." In Assyrian the word was manu, and in Aramaic it was maniah. The value of the mina varied with time; it was 1/60th of a talent equal to 60 shekels, or perhaps 50 shekels as in Ezek 45:12.

Another related word, manakh, meant "to lend," "to give," and "a gift." Again it carried the idea of "a portion" of something that could be given to others. Another inflected form was Meni, a god of fate, giving portions or awards, Isa 65:11.

Moneh meant "counted number," or "time." Here again the concept is of a portion, in this case of a ceaseless chain of onflowing time, but reduced to segments that could be counted.

Mena meant "to assign," "to appoint," "to number," and "to ordain."

With inflectional variation mena went to menay, where it meant "counting," or "numbering." Men meant "to apportion," and "a part." Min and minnee meant "a part of," "from," or "out of."

Mana also had a highly spiritual significance. The Polynesian tribes of the South Pacific believed that mana was a spiritual force or power concentrated in people or objects. Far away on the American continent the native Indian brave sought this mana, the divine spirit, during initiation ceremonies into manhood.

The Hopi Indians of Arizona knew Kerwan and Katchina Mana as the name of the sprouting Maize Spirits, while Keckamanetowa was the Fox Indian name for the gentle manitou spirit of the Great Plains. An alternate Fox name, Ketchimanetowa, meant the Great Spirit. The Algonquin Indians along the St. Lawrence river knew manitou as a supernatural being who controlled nature, a spirit, deity, or object with supernatural powers. The Objiwa Indians of the Lake Superior region also knew manitou as a spirit of god. In the eastern woodlands Gitche Manitou was known as the All-Father, the Great SpiritRHDEL, TK, NAM.

The mana connection to spiritual forces and gods is found elsewhere. Manu was the ancient Egyptian home of the gods, the regions of the west where the sun setEBD.

Manu was the Appointed One, author of the ancient Hindu holy law, progenitor of the human race and Creator of the Universe. According to Hindu tradition a succession of Manus recreated the earth anew at the end of each of the earth ages. In some traditions the Manus were known as rulers of the planetsAE, EMLI.

Manabozho was the American Indian god of the dawn and the east, commemorative of the great dawn of creation. He was the common ancestor of the North American Indian tribes, the Creator, and the preserver of both earth and heaven. He was the intermediary of the Spirit Manitou during the initiation ceremony of the Indian brave. The Illinois Indians held Manitou in reverence and awe as the genius and master of life, the spirit that ruled all thingsRHDEL, NAM.

This manna relationship to the gods is found elsewhere. Manannan mac Lir was the ancient Irish god of the sea; he was the Outer King of Ireland. Manawydan was the Welsh god of the sea who dwelt in a place far across the Great Sea. He was a brother of the mythical Bran, Ernissyen, and Branwyn, and the second husband of the goddess RhiannanCH.

The mana word, as applied to the gods, or to spiritual forces, is a stronger demonstration than Eloha. The word-forms cited here were used in ancient Egypt, India, Polynesia, North America, Ireland, and Wales. It was found in such diverse people as Hamitic, Hindu, Polynesian, American Indian and Celtic. Such widespread and pervasive applications, although coming down to us in distorted myths and traditions, indicate an influence once covering the globe. The use must be very ancient, going back to a time when a universal spiritual and religious influence pervaded the entire planet.

This universal influence is also found in worldwide place names.

Manitoba is a phonetic variation on Manitowa, a province in central Canada. The word is in Manitoulin Island of Lake Huron, and Manitowoc in Wisconsin. The word is found in Managua (Spirit-Water), Nicaragua, and Manaos, BrazilRHDEL, TWIG. The name is found many other places:

Mana, Guiana Mana, Greece Mana, Iceland Mana, Liberia Mana, Sumatra Mana Is., Fiji Mana River, Russia Mana River, Ethiopia Mana, Hawaiian Islands Mana Island, New Zealand Manah in Muscat, Oman, and Iran

With addition of another phonetic element, Hawa, we find it in such place names as:

Manawa, Wisconsin Manawa Lake, Iowa Manawa, Solomon Islands and Manawa City, Bahrein Islands

Manawa is composed of Mana + Hawa, literally meaning "Spirit Creator.

There are many Manoa names, in North America, South America, in the South Seas, and in the Near East. Manoa is a slightly different spelling of Manawa.

We also find:

Manawan, Saskatchewan, Manawar River, India, Manuwari Islands, Maldives, Manwaru and Manawoara, New Zealand, Manoewar and Maniwori, Dutch New Guinea, Menewere, Central Africa, Manawashi, Sudan, Manawali, India and River in Ceylon, Manilla, Philippines, as well as many Mineolas, Manelas and Manas forms everywhere

Although the words and names, with their literal significance, can be identified today from Hebrew, this does not mean that Hebrew was the origin. By no means. But it does mean that the Hebrew language retains within its vocabulary and linguistic inflections the same patterns as used in very ancient planetary times. As stated in Genesis 11:1 --

Now the whole earth had one language and few words.

Or, as it is stated in the King James Version:

The whole earth was of one language and one speech.

Does this mean the entire planet knew only one language? No. It means that native peoples still spoke their individual tongues. They never lost those tongues. But there was a spiritual influence which was taking them into the use of common word elements and applications. We find traces of that ancient social process in these linguistic comparisons. The olden people did not forget their native tongues, but they also did not forget that ancient religious and spiritual influence, no matter how degraded the memory became.

The spiritual and intellectual features denoted by these words is not limited to the Polynesian and American Indian mana. Manas, with the characteristic "s" ending, is found in Hindu as the rational faculty of the mind, the source of genius. In Sanskrit manu meant mind and appeared in Gothic as manna. Linguists believe these words derive from an ancient common Indo-European root. According to this view the words led to both modern man and mind. With phonetic variations it is found in other Teutonic languages as myne and muni for "mind, desire, and love." Old Norse munu and Gothic gamunan meant "to think, remember, or intend." With stronger inflectional change it is found in Sanskrit mati = "thought." Greek memona meant "yearning" while Latin memini meant "to remember" and monere meant "to adviseRHDEL,OED."

All of these words, from the North American and Polynesian mana, to the Hindu manas and Sanskrit manu, to the Teutonic manna, show descriptive expressions for spiritual or mental qualities. If ancient people understood these words as meaning a portion of the Great Spirit or Great Mind, they had a respectful regard for the source of all spirit and all mind. The implications of the words, and their use by ancient people, show a potent and powerful everyday reminder of man's intimate relationship with God -- a relationship now lost on our modern secular, confused and godless world.

-- I'm not saying to (hah!) take this guy's word as gospel, but it's worth exploring.

Wow. A lot to digest. And cetainly interesting that the same term seems to appear in so many different cultures. But I do not think there is any reason to believe, state, or assume that the Polynesian sense of the word is the same as the Hebrew (or others from that region). In one case, we are talking about a power held by objects; in the other, a substance exuded from plants (and other meanings that you give). In the latter sense, it came to be associated essentially with gifts from heaven. It does not have this sense in ancient Hawaiian, although with the comming of Christianity to the Hawaiian Islands, the "power" sense of the word became applied to the "Lord above" who had great power (not a great giver of gifts, although obviously one could draw analogies, and I'm sure the clergy did). Still a very different meaning from the Hebrew. Is "mana" in the Hebrew/Christian sense just a mis-spelling? It is not the same Polynesian word, nor the one made popular by anthropologists. - Marshman 03:06, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Is there any reason to believe, state, or assume that the Polynesian sense of the word is the same as the Hebrew? Yes ... [see the bioelectric discussion below]. In this case, we are talking about a power held by objects (animate and inanimate). The context of a substance exuded from plants is a recent one from my readings. The "wafer"/"sap" explianation is recent invention to explain away the historic "magic" meaning [primarily, IMO, because electromagnetism is poorly understood even today) ... and does not explain the historical context of the cross cultural idea. Mana does not have "a gift from heaven" in ancient Hawaiian ... but the ancient Hawaiian term has a a sense of "essence" (which is similar to what the Hebrews thought the Ark of the Covenant and to the Ten Commandments had). The "power" sense of the word has historically been associated with "magic" and "mysticism" throught various cultures. [snip rest Christianity in Hawaiian Islands] Is "mana" in the Hebrew/Christian sense just a mis-spelling? I've seen it spelled both way in various Hebrew - Christian text I've came across ... though this may be a transcription error (dropping the 2nd n). This does not change the fact that the "mana" basic concept has similar meaning from the Hebrew. Any reliable references on it not having the same context as the same Polynesian word? Any references on it being not the one made popular by anthropologists?

Sincerely, JDR

The person who wrote what you are criticizing is very close, his mistake is using the term bioelectricity and I would prefer the word bio energy, aura of the living cell('s). And also mana is the same as manna both have "Majik" involved in the each description of the word.

Bioelectricity

"Mana" has absolutely nothing to do with bioelectricity. I cannot even fathom where that idea is coming from. Certainly, the term has taken on magical overtones in recent decades, but the concept is clearly a spiritual one. What bioelectricity would a rock have (although Polynesians attribute mana to such inanimate objects)? Unless you can add something worthwhile to the text that explains where you are going with the idea that there is a relationship, it is poor practice to simply put something in an introductory paragraph that is not ever again discussed in the article and is (I must say) more than a little far-fetched. You are essentially changing the definition to suit some quirky idea that might have value for expression in the article, but is not within any standard discussion of the term that I have ever seen. If you really know something about bioelectricity, that is great. But you are not showing any knowledge of the term "mana" by your additions - Marshman 05:31, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

"Mana" has similarities with bioelectricity. Notice the line "supernatural force said to exist within all things" ... the "mana" in ppl is the soul (an essential, immortal essence of a being). The definition is not changed to suit a "quirky" idea ... it still a "force said to exist within _all_ things" ... the term mana (and it's cross cultural analogies) has had "magical" overtones for centuries and the concepts are usually a spiritual one. Science has recently [last century or two] have came across this, the electric phenomena in animals or plants ... it's called bioelectricity. It's what allow you to think and exist. It's the "life force" much like chi (Chinese), prana (Hindu), ka (Egyptian), lung (Tibetan), and mana. I think the applicable quote is "advanced technology will be indistinguishable from _magic_ to a lesser advanced society". Volta and Galvani began the modern transition from a magical animate object's "mana" to the technological biochemistry's understanding of bioelectricity.

What bioelectricity would a rock have? Rocks don't have bioelectricity (though they are composed of energy) ... you are trying imply that is what my addition was sayin ... that rocks have bioelectricity ... and it did not state that an inanimate object is an animate [e.g., the addition DID NOT say that) ... it said it was "similar", mabey you need a dictionary for _simaliar_ [i'll help you here, it's a "correspondence" or a "resemblance"] ... though the Polynesians attribute mana to such inanimate objects, the _coorespondance_ in animate objects is bioelectricity (and this concepts has been delineated by cultures like the egyptians and others as stated in the article) ... Now, rocks do have energy, though ... in fact _all things_ have protons, electrons, and neutrons within each individual atom (and, on the quantum level, everything is just compsed of tiny bundels of energy, atleast according to the string theorists).

You cannot even fathom where that idea is coming from? Sorry to hear that ... your comprehension of the concepts seems limited. This is not within any standard discussion of the term that you have ever seen? You must not be very well read on this subject. Have you even looked up the concepts or studied the history? I have .... please read about the ancient civilizations ... read what the scientific community was experimented with ... read up on the religious and metaphysical meanings ... read up on the New Age movement understanding ... then mabey you might understand the similarities.

To help you out on the coorelation of bioelectricity and mana, here's a some refs specifically defining mana ... on the delzur research site, it states "Mana" is a "unknown or mystical power associated with persons and things" (emphasis mine) .... also, according to spiritual educationm's glossary, mana is "mind; mind stuff". Take a wild guess what is flowing in your brain right now? That's right, bioelectricity. Guess what allow you to move (ie., power yourself)? That's right, bioelectricity. Other sites to start helping you understand the similarity of concepts include Pueo's Wisdom (Mana'o Pueo)'s Mana Conservation, Zone of fire, Biophotons - The Light in Our Cells, and Wilhelm Reich: From Psychoanalysis to Energy Medecine. Other references surely exist (as the previous links were from a quick search) ... and I have came across this in offline resource ...

Unless I can add something worthwhile to the text that explains relationship of the idea, it is poor practice to simply put something in an introductory paragraph? Why is it bad for the intro? Would it be "ok" to delineate it more in the body? ... this specific analogy is not again discussed in the article? The article does discuss the various other analogies, but not the modern scientific concept ... mabey that is what is needed (though it bleeds more into metaphysics (along the lines of the greeks, somewhat intereting) or parascience and new age (something I am not highly interested in)).

You say it is a little far-fetched? LOL! that's funny ... it's a concept that has been around since the ancient times (like the greeks thoughts on "essence"). Nothing is "essentially changing" in the definition to suit "a quirky idea". It's an shared connecting inference if you read on this stuff. Not within any standard discussion of the term that you have ever seen? I don't think you seen much then. You seem to know nothin of the concepts of bioelectricity (nor it's analogs and evolution in history). You seem ignorant of all this and I'm not sure you understand the similarities of concepts to mana in various cultures (especially, the modern scientific one). IMO, it's editors of your ilk that damages wikipedia ... try sometimes to edit by the motto "do no harm" (removing applicable info is harmful to the ultimate goal of wikipedia).

Sincerely, JDR

Sorry, I do not rise to trolling. Your second attempt was better than your first (which eliminated inanimate objects from the definition of mana), but I still contend that the addition of "similar to bioelectricity" is unwarranted in the definition part. Anyone can say that any two things are "similar" in an etherial sense; (That amounts to using big words to sound knowledgeable). "Mana" is also metaphorically similar to water, or air, or how about fire? If you want to show how "mana"—for which I would argue that the Polynesian sense of the word should be the main direction of this article—is explained by the study of bioelectricity, then develop a subheading and go at it. Since neither article (Mana or Bioelectricity) contains any cross-referenced information, inclusion of the simplistic statement "similar to bioelectricity" in the definition is misleading the readers. Put something useful in the article not something pseudoscientific in the definition. If it is "similar" to bioelectricity, then how can a rock have mana? Gee, it must not be all that similar to bioelectricity.

I would also object to the expansion of the "mana" concept into all kinds of other areas without a pretty good description of why and how. Your diatribe above does just that. It goes on and on about "bioelectricity" in a metaphysical sense, completely outside this article. Your citing "Pueo's Wisdom" is an indication: it is a metaphysical, New Age web site that bears only a superficial relationship to the Polynesian "mana". Just because "Pueo" compares static electricity to "mana" does not make it a sensible approach, or true.

I think the problem is this: I am not ready to accept that "mana" is some universal concept without better explanations. I live in Polynesia and the term has a definition that is covered in the first part of the article. It is a cultural and spiritual concept. It does not have an explanation in pseudoscience or physics; it's explanation (if you need one) lies in the social sciences. And to attempt to apply "physics" to it destroys the cultural significance while adding nothing to our knowldege of the way the universe works. Mana is power in the sense of influence, not in the sense of energy. A rock can have power if it is perceived to influence actions or events. That is a social construct. There is no need to try and explain that "energy" in the rock is responsible for its power.

If you think "mana" is tied to some grander "universal concept", then go develop an article on that concept. The Greeks and all the other "ancients" that understood these concepts so well surely did not use terms like bioelectricity and mana. There is already explained in the article the confusion that exists between mana and manna. Details on manna should go into that article. Your modern use of the term "mana" is essentially a pseudoscientific one; part of "New Age" gobbleygook. I'm really not interested in persuing that. However, I do agree it is valuable to point out how the term has come to be used in so-called "modern" societies. I just object to the New Age usurping of the lead-off definition, which should remain rather broad and open. - Marshman 18:31, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Hebrew Manna

I added two external links I have found helpful on this topic. I also saw there was a couple of (sp?) notes in the portion dealing with Hebrew Manna, so I attempted to offer a correction. From my understanding, the Hebrew "what is it" was "man hu" (revised - for some reason I put in "Ma Na" in my previous edit, blame [Kundalini]). This understanding may also be incorrect, but it pained me to see a (sp?) in the Wikipedia! Also, rather than correct the other (sp?) I commented out this line: "When Jews consecrated some object to make it holy and endow it with special religious virtue, they gave it manna (sp?)." I have been unable to find anything regarding this idea from a Hebrew standpoint; it appears to be an editor's confusion with the concept of mana vs manna (I can't be sure). Unless there is a basis which correlates directly with "mana", does it not belong in the Manna article? BarkMe 21:27, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I should think so. The only point here need be that there is confusion in many minds between mana (this article) and manna. The problem I had (I put in the (sp?)) was that the part that talks about "manna" suddenly veers off into a Jewish concecration = "mana", so I assumed there must be some mistake? - Marshman 04:09, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Maybe it's me, but I think there's a HUGE mistake here. In hebrew, the bread (or food) the israelites ate in the desert is called "Mann", or "Mann Bread". There's no a in the end, not in writing, not in sound, nor in any other indicator. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.108.63.116 (talk) 16:25, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Norse and Greek?

I fail to see how a Modern Greek word for "mother" is relavent here. In addition, does anyone have any sources for "mana" in Norse mythology? Having scanned through my copy of the Eddas, searched my Dictionary of Norse Mythology and even looked through some of the neopagan works on Norse mythology, I haven't come up with anything. So it sounds suspiciously like patent nonsense to me, particularly from the definition. So, to cut a long story short, I removed both of them as being irrelavent and patent nonsense, respectively. Also, for good measure I've added a cleanup needing attention tag, as the article should really discuss more about the Polynesian concept- not new age universalisms. Dewrad 00:29, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

There is a word mana in Old Norse, with a meaning roughly between "demand" and "ask for". Svenska Akademiens Ordbok notes this etymology: "corresponds to OHG. manŏn, manèn, Ger. mahnen, OE. manian; cf. lat. monere; from an IE. root men, think (cf. mental, mind, may)".

However, it has no historical connection to the Melanesian mana, and I'd like to see some sources for the claim that the Old Norse word has shaped our modern use of mana. I support the removal and the attention-tag. Mana has been an important concept in the discussion about the origins of religion, but the article says nothing about it. --Salleman 08:13, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

I'd also question the "Polynesian origin" story, which seems even more nonsensical than the Norse origin, and is with little doubt patent nonsense.

Actually, I had a book on the subject once (well, on the basic subject of spells and magic in fairytales) which made mention of it, which I used to quote often to "prove" the Norse use of the word, but unfortunately I can't remember the title well enough to track it down (it was part of a some series, of which I had one or two books). Something pretty similar appears at [1], which gives one definition of mana as, "vital essence that is the pure energy of Love and Harmony".

However, that being the only reference I can currently dig up, it seems that this is one very interesting bit of information that is destined to fade away into abyss. Too bad we can't do something to keep that from happening. --Corvun 08:48, August 20, 2005 (UTC)

According to the Britannica: "Mana, among Melanesian and Polynesian peoples, a supernatural force or power that may be ascribed to persons, spirits, or inanimate objects." [2] Says nothing about any Norse use. --Salleman 09:33, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Logical fallacy: Argument from Authority. There's probably a few other logical fallacies in that argument as well, but I don't have my list handy. --Corvun 03:56, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

Personally, I find it a lot more likely that a word of Nordic origin related to magic would become widespread in English as a term associated with magic than some completely obscure and only tenuously related Polynesian word. I'm not saying we should get rid of the "Polynesian origin" stuff, but we should at least give [3] a mention, and let people follow the link and decide for themselves whether or not to believe it. It beats telling people what they should and shouldn't think, which is what the recent changes to the article have done. --Corvun 09:45, September 2, 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps it only took one person to be confused? How widespread is "mana" with respect to magic, and how recent is it? I notice the AskOxford site only gives polynesian definitions of the word.. I, for one, wouldn't be surprised if Diablo caused most of the confusion. If the word has only been common in English for a few decades, then perhaps it's just some people getting the wrong end of the stick recently.. Tenbaset 05:54, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Mana, a Melanesian (n.b., although it is also present in Polynesian and Maori) term, was disseminated into English in 1891 by Codrington. It became a generalized term in anthropology for what was thought to be the most primitive example of religion. Something that has a "wow" feeling about it has mana. I read on some anthropological websites that Keesing in 1986 (Rethinking mana. Journal of Anthropological Research (40):137) believes this to be a linguistic misconception, but I have not read his article. Possibly, it has to do with a confusion of has and is. When we say that something is pretty, we don't mean it has a supernatural energy known as pretty in it, for example.

Mana was adopted as a fitting term for magical energy in fantasy fiction by Niven in 1978; [4] does a god job in explaining that. My personal theory is that the mana-meter found in Populous (1989) is the first computer game to adopt mana as a term for magic points, and equally important to Niven for its use in subsequent works of fantasy; though I have no real source for this.

I'd like to edit this into a descent article, but I'm to busy with other articles right now. It certainly deserves its attention tag as it stands. --Salleman 06:21, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Right, so this begs the question, "what concept is this article supposed to be describing?". You're saying that there is a Mana (anthroporolgy technical term) that is related to but distinct from Mana (polynesian word) both of which are distinct from Mana (magic) and mana (norse). Never mind Mana (misspelling of manna) in the mix!

Certainly, what you're describing isn't how I understand Maori mana - so I, personally, would agree with the linguistic misconception idea. I think the Maori today speak of a cheif having mana -- an attribute -- I believe there's no idea of mana existing seperate from an entity, although that entity may be a god, mountain, tribe, person or whatever.) Tenbaset 02:33, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Although chatting with a Maori friend of mine shows that I could very well be wrong -- "Part of it is presence. It's definately an intrinsic spiritual thing. One can feel it." Tenbaset 05:50, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Made some cleanup. I think it is alright to treat Polynesian, anthropological and fantasy mana in the same article, since they have evolved from the others in that order. Since you have such assets as Maori friends, maybe you would like to take pity on the Oceanic origins section? --Salleman 09:49, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Please refer to the entry in Te Aka Māori-English, English-Māori Dictionary. See the other definitions and phrases, in particular, mana atua. Also, if someone has it to hand, please quote the Heinemann New Zealand dictionary definition as to the current usage of the term in modern New Zealand English. Perhaps some Hawaiians and Kiwis could get together and fix this mess, ay? --Queen Victoria 10:54, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Break Up Article?

The current mana article seems to be about such a diversity of topics that it would be better to break it into several articles and create a disambiguation page. It would make it easier for each of the individual articles (mana sub-topics) to be written with better flow and cohesion. I want to know what everone else thinks before I make such a major change.

Prophet121 21:47, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

I'd be inclined to go with "major headings" for the moment; although I agree the problem is different concepts (but the same four letters) are being discussed here.

Maybe something like?

Mana (polynesian)

Mana (anthropology)

- As it's a derived (possibly incorrectly) meaning from the polynesian word.

Mana (magic in popular culture)

- maybe the norse bit belongs here? Or does it fit anywhere? This bit I'm confused about. Can anyone state either way? (I'm not convinced there's any link to norse mythology.)

- popular fiction

- computer games

Other defintions

- Note the similar spelling of manna (I think it is quite otherwise unreleated)

- and other similar words meaning different concepts. Tenbaset 02:36, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

The only other usage that (at this time) warrants a separate article is the usage in fantasy/gaming. The other usages would be stub articles, if they were split into separate articles. Fuzzform (talk) 01:00, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

"Genuine religion"

The article states that mana is "often understood as the precursor to genuine religion.". That would imply that the concept of mana could not coexist with religion, which is incorrect. The Maori in New Zealand incorporated Christianity in the early nineteenth century without rejecting the notion of mana. Also, of course, Maori had their own religious beliefs before the coming of missionaries, and did not fully discard them afterwards. My objection to the quoted phrase is that it is erroneous, misleading (how does its author define "religion"?) and insulting (what is "genuine" religion?). -- Aridd, Sunday, January 29th, 2006

I added that to the article once upon a time. What I meant to say is that mana has been held by anthropologists to be the precursor to concepts such as sacred, holy and divine, thus "genuine religion." Feel free to rephrase for clarity. I definitely did not mean that mana is in conflict with any of these concepts. --Salleman 14:42, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Pronounciation?

How does one pronounce Manna (biblical word), and Mana (this article is about)? I imagine it should go like this: 'Man-na' for biblical Manna (sounding like 'Hannah'), and 'Ma-ana' (sounding like 'Prana') for the Oceanic Mana... --Arny 23:39, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

According to Merriam-Webster: manna, mana. --Salleman 14:48, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Oh, good. I had it right after all. I've played a lot of RPGs, but I had never actually heard mana pronounced. But it is pronounced exactly as I thought. Cool. -- --Shador5529 14:59, 9 March 2007

Mana in Maori and i assume in all polynesian cultures is pronounced mun-ah (unsigned comment by User:Tarzipan).

Not so good Shador5529. Mana in Māori and Polynesian is not pronounced as in the 'mana' soundfile above - the soundfile has a longer first vowel, something like mah-nuh. As Tarzipan says, the Polynesian pronunciation (and this probably goes for Melanesian too) has two identical short vowels, MUH-nuh. English speakers tend to say MAH-nuh. Kahuroa 19:37, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

"The Craft"

Is this the same word Nancy used in the film, The Craft? I believe she refers to it as a universal source of power. --Spesek 20:51, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I believe you are referring to "Manon". A brief glance at the Internet tells me most neo-pagans have no clue what the character is talking about. Way to go, Hollywood. -Verdatum (talk) 20:24, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Originate

I altered the phrase 'the word originated in Polynesian mythology' because that is patent nonsense. The word mana is older than the Polynesian languages since it is Oceanic in origin. Kahuroa 22:41, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually Polynesian blood lines date back 60,000 years. so its possible. It couldn't be african since the two languages have very very little similarities. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.239.62.219 (talk) 01:25, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Reference to Wilhelm Reich's orgone

It should be added at least as reference at the end. Orgone is certainly similar concept to mana. It is actually the scientifical term for 'life energy'... In fact, orgone energy is the single scientist concept of what any culture, of any time and any part of earth, were calling by different names, because all of them had empiricaly discovered what Wilhelm Reich was successful to do scientifically.

Why Oceanic & Melanesian, not Polynesian & Melanesian?

Either way the following sentence should not be in the Melanesian subsection.

Mana also means pride, in New Zealand Māori.

202.127.11.190 21:31, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I've changed both of these. If the section was to be called "Mana in Oceania culture," aside from being incorrect, it would have had to have covered Polynesian, Melanesian, and Micronesian culture. Since it was immediately followed by a section on Mana in Melanesia, it was just plain wrong.

Furthermore, Wikitionary seems to say mana in Māori means "power." This, as well as what was in this article, is more than likely incorrect, as mana should carry the same connotations and meanings in Māori as in other Polynesian cultures and languages. --Limetom 09:02, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

There is no contradiction. While mana in Māori has the same meanings as in other Polynesian languages, mana can, in certain contexts, be translated as 'power' because someone with mana has the ability to perform things that someone without mana could not. This is also true of other Polynesian languages too. Kahuroa 19:32, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Looks to me as if the Melanesian section is saying nothing that isn't also true of Polynesian mana - I edited out some of the slightly touristy Hawaiian stuff. The concepts seem identical and the sections should therefore probably be merged. Kahuroa 19:49, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Definition

The definition should be in the first sentence. The information about the linguistic origins of the word should be in the second sentence. This is a far more logical/straightforward way of introducing the concept. I'm going to go ahead and make the switch. Any objections should be explained below. Fuzzform (talk) 00:43, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

"...and that instills in the appreciative observer a sense of respect or wonder." - This statement only makes the definition excessively long and wordy. It also needs a reference, since it certainly isn't common knowledge. I would argue that one can never really prove that such an assertion is true. If this statement/claim is going to be in the article, then it needs to cite a reputable source which has put forth the claim. Also, the meaning of "traditional term" needs clarification. Fuzzform (talk) 00:54, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Mana In Fantasy section

I have cut the entire section to the Larry Niven bit although this really needs a citation. I added a short statement about mana's widespread use in gaming. Then a link to Magic Point for more info.

I think that this is not the place for listing individual games esp not Dungeon Master as one of the first. While it was certainly a genre first in gameplay, I can think of Moria (1981) etc that used the concept well before. Cheers Joehamel (talk) 15:58, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Citation for Larry Niven:

"When the mana runs out, I'll go like a blown candle flame, and civilization will follow. No more magic, no more magic-based industries. Then the whole world will be barbarian until men learn a new way to coerce nature, and the swordsmen, the damned stupid swordsmen, will win after all." (Worlock in "The Magic May Return")

Lev Lafayette (talk) 04:56, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Copy Edits

To the Maori sections in particular. The intention is to preserve tone, substance and meaning while simplifying and clarifying.

From this non-New Zealander's perspective, clarity would be further improved by inserting (parenthetically) the approximate English equivalents to terms such as ariki, tuakana and rangatira. Doing so once, when the terms are first employed, would be sufficient.Northern Islander (talk) 21:28, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Copy Edits (Again)

Reverted to previous draft because I now realize that the New Zealand Ministry of Justice document itself has been incorporated into the body of the Wiki article verbatim, and that many of my edits were edits to it. Northern Islander (talk) 22:05, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

This is inappropriate. Documents in the public domain should be copied to wikisource and linked from the article, not copied verbatim. The document should be changed to a short summary of it's contents. I'm still having trouble figuring out just what this article is about. The lead section says it's about a word, but then doesn't bother defining just what the word means. -Verdatum (talk) 16:42, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

definition in lede

Hey, how about putting a definition of the concept at the beginning of the article, rather than a longwinded thing about how it's hard to explain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.85.68.231 (talk) 11:13, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

in New Zealand

in New Zealand, compensation cases include considerations for "loss of mana" equivalent to hurt and humiliation or loss of dignity. Not sure how to go about including it but one example is this:

In regard to compensation for humiliation, the Court acknowledged the seriousness of the impact of the loss of the job on the defendant, and the consequent loss of mana in the local community.

and the reference is http://www.google.com.au/search?q=compensation+for+loss+of+mana+new+zealand&hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&prmd=ivns&ei=bwyZTeelNILGvQPbptmHDA&start=20&sa=N

Newspaper articles also mention this claim related to body parts (New Zealand herald, Feb 2011) http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10709348 110.33.2.238 (talk) 00:31, 4 April 2011 (UTC) Yes, this does seem to be an increasingly common interpretation of mana.The government paid large sums of tax payer money to the Tainui tribe in 1995 for their loss of mana(ie hurt to their pride and sense of well being).They also gave them land, such as the land where the shopping centre "The Base " is located and several millions plus some measure of input into the control and running of the Waikato River.Tainui had been told they had no legal case with the Treaty of Waitangi Tribunal, so relied on the government's desire to end the many decades of Tainui latent hostility to the Government by arranging a multi million dollar out of court settlement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.58.186.217 (talk) 21:51, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

"Universal Archetypes" or other manalogous concepts

I'm not sure what a "universal archetype" is but the previous section with that subheading was an interesting exercise in analogous concepts for mana, so I'm going to try and capture that here for possible re-use later. Is there a general article which lists these elsewhere for which mana might be more appropriately placed as a Polynesian example? Energy (esotericism), for example? Rorybowman (talk) 18:41, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Concepts analogous to mana in various other cultures include the power of magic, sympathetic magic and of seeking the intervention of a specific supernatural being, whether deity, saint or deceased ancestor. The concept of a life-energy inherent in all living beings is a common archetype, appearing in many ancient religions and systems of metaphysics.

• Anishinaabe traditional beliefs: manitou
• Australian Aboriginal mythology: maban
• Aztec religion: teotl
• Balinese religion: sekhti
• Basque mythology: Adur
• Egyptian mythology: ka
• Finnish mythology: Väki
• Greek mythology: ichor
• Inuit mythology: inua, sila
• Iroquois mythology: orenda
• Leni Lenape mythology: manetuwak
• Norse mythology: Seiðr
• Roman mythology: numen
• Salish-Kootenai mythology: sumesh
• Sioux Indians (Dakota): Wakan
• Welsh mythology: awen
• Hindu mythology and Yoga: prana, chakra, Bindu, mantra, ahamkara, karma, siddhi
• Yoruba mythology: ashe

• Chinese philosophy: qi (or chi), Tao
• European alchemy and philosophy: aether, (or ether), quintessence
• Hindu philosophy: prana, maan (Respect, acknowledgement, belief)
• Japanese philosophy: kami, ki, rei; Ryukyuan mabui
• Tibetan Buddhism & Bön: yang (g.yang)
• Vitalism: Élan vital

Mana came to the attention of the anthropological community with the English missionary Robert Henry Codrington's (1830–1922) work The Melanesians (1891). It has since been discussed by anthropologists such as Émile Durkheim (1912), Marcel Mauss (1924), Claude Lévi-Strauss (1950) and Roger Keesing (1984).

I think that the page would really benefit from someone explaining who thinks mana is a universal archetype, where they got the idea, and how that idea has been developed in the new age/neopagan community (or wherever it comes from -- Jungian psychoanlaysis maybe?) But I don't know enough to write that part of the page. And without that description I sorta feel this list -- which Academics don't consider accurate or useful -- might not belong on the page. Rex (talk) 21:37, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

References