Talk:Malév Flight 240

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What are Israel's comments on this? A2Kafir 16:09, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

• Are there any sources that describe comments from Israeli officials? WhisperToMe (talk) 22:08, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Sources

I would clean this article up (add an infobox, etc.), but there are no sources so cleaning up an unsourced article is putting the cart before the horse. Anynobody 08:12, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Crashed?

Crashed my arse, it was either bombed or shot down, there is no amibguity to that, however there is ambiiguity as to whether it was an Israeli act, which it probably was.86.138.254.99 (talk) 18:53, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

We need sources to say stuff like that in the article. (And Israel gets blamed for everything, so I get suspicious of those claims.) A2Kafir (talk) 23:14, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

The british RAF long-range radar at Cyprus saw an F-4 Phantom jet shoot down Malév 240. Only the zionists had the Phantom in the region at that time. Weirdly most of the people killed aboard the Tu-154 were scandinavian business travelers, because Malév was the last airline to still run to Beirut at the time. The jews also shot down a large czech Il-62 quad-jet airliner around that time. 91.83.15.117 (talk) 20:14, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

91.83: There is no government called "the Jews" - You can say Israel shot down X (if you have reliable sources that say so) - But "the Jews" did not shoot down anything because there is no such government. WhisperToMe (talk) 18:43, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

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fatalities/survivor list and non-English sources

Attempting to share material here on talkpage, to be tabled: of the passengers,

• Diplomats: UN Observer force, Captain Heeiki Paavola;

Posted to Jordan from Katajanokka, Mauri Krohn

• Angolan National
• Dutch National
• Hungarian National, en route to Baghdad trade fair, working for company called Irodageptechnika V, married with two kids, name: Glausius Gabor
• French Nationals, four French Sisters in service with Holy Family convent of Beirut, names: Adeline Soucan; Gabriele Giustiniani; Jean Andre Hitier; Marcelien Delaverne
• UK Nationals, Judith Lehmann (relative of Ruth Maidani);
• New Zealand National, Ruth Maidani;
• Saudi Arabia Nationals
• Egyptian Nationals

of the crewmembers, 4 women, 6 men (names available from hirTV or other Hungarian media). the above was reported on hirTV television broadcast. On Saturday the 20th of December, 2008, Dutch television broadcaster Nova carried their piece, with some excerpts from the Nemzeti Kulturalis Alaprogram film.

Cyprus-based signals intelligence anonymized sources of Her Britannic Majesty`s RAF, identifier 90280 or RAF Troodos, detected the aircrafts involved in the incident, confirming it had been shot down by two direct hits of heat-seeking missiles from a two-mile intercept range, impacting the tail of the aircraft(as broadcasted on Dutch television in December 2008).

A Statement or declaration attributed to former RAF Navigator Tom Morcross of his participation in the RAF unit dispatched to the scene of the wreckage states that the wreckage was widely dispersed over a wide area due to "explosion".

This assessment has been confirmed by the former Foreign Minister of Finland, Erkki Tuomioja.

Firstly, thank you for discussing rather than constantly attempting to insert the information. Now to the crux of the matter - where is your source, or better still where are your multiple sources to confirm all of this? It's not enough to say "This assessment has been confirmed by the former Foreign Minister of Finland, Erkki Tuomioja" but where did he say this, and to who did he say this? we need multiple reliable sources to corroborate what you are saying. Your embedded video is not really a good enough source in that it is non-english and so cannot be verified. I know that may sound a little unfair to the non-english speaking world, but sources need to be verifiable and this one currently cannot. Chaheel Riens (talk) 17:45, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for your speedy assistance in satisfying your objections. Perhaps a wikipedian with working knowledge of Hungarian or Dutch (possibly of an open social mind) may help to you with that. I`m drained. Godspeed126.161.148.209 (talk) 18:05, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

No improvements have been offered by wikipedians since `Revision as of 19:35, 6 June 2018` despite the fact that it had references sourced. How can such hasty and uninformed "contributions" be tolerated? The point of wikipedia is to INCREASE availability of good-quality info, not delete it; what have "we" come to? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.133.77 (talk)

I think the problem is we dont have any "good-quality info" as we are waiting for some reliable sources that we can read for ourselves. Particularly peculiar comments so far, trying to imagine what the Foreign Minister of Finland is doing working with the Royal Air Force and other things that you have said dont add up or contradict themselves or are unlikely. So fairly simple we need reliable independent sources before anything can be added and only if it is neutral and not undue weight. MilborneOne (talk) 19:49, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Also as a comment to the IP - seeing as you're the editor wanting to make and keep the additions the onus is on you - not anybody else - to find sources that satisfy WP:RELIABLE. Chaheel Riens (talk) 20:25, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Great, having reviewed the matter, it can only be appropriate to make note of the Diplomat(s) killed in the incident.

Victim named as Gabor

Are there any Hungarian sources showing Gabor was related to Gábor K killed in a Siemens electric centrifugal propeller electric aeroplane on the 31st of May 2018? Certainly of note if available.126.161.148.209 (talk) 00:15, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

We dont normally list the names of victims unless otherwise noteworthy (that is they have or likely to have a wikipedia article) so it would not be relevant to this article. 15:39, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

"We" did list the relatives as noteable of two crashes (the guy who died in a crash had lost his relatives in another crash, American Airlines flight 1) of AA flights, so what you say doesn`t seem right. Dare one reiterate that there seems to be undue weight being lent (by several of "you" editors) to censorship rather than being lent to scholarship . The article has recently been substantially improved, followed by certain editors (for whatever their intentions)having sought to undo the improvements. Certainly, as certain as could possibly be, IF the flight-crash Hungarian victims named Gabor are relatives, that couldn`t possibly be omitted, wouldn`t you say it would not be relevent? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.151.18 (talk) 07:47, 8 June 2018 (UTC) Perhaps coincidental, a former vice-president of the Rockwell company (jets) was married to a Gabor for several years. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.164.63 (talk) 03:11, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Having relatives in different accidents is not noteworthy and as far as I can see American Airlines Flight 1 only lists victims with an article. Nobody censors anything but what we do is make sure anything is reliably sourced and has due weight to be included. If you want to add something and it has been challenged then just bring it to this talk page so it can be discussed. But certainly if the Gabors are related it is not noteworthy to this accident as Gabor wouldnt get a mention. MilborneOne (talk) 12:09, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Incidentally, the conspiracy theorists who say that the Israelis were targeting weaponised mechanical parts (gyroscopes or levers like clockwork) before they could be delivered to terrorists are ascribing that the Israelis LIKELY HAD TARGETED Mr. Gabor`s consignment, so whatever tailspin "You" want to put on it, Gabor is surely noteable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.151.18 (talk) 08:02, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

I have now idea what you are talking about or who Gabor is, but if he is noteworthy enough for a stand-alone article then he can get a mention. MilborneOne (talk) 12:09, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Crashed ?

It is highly suspicious that there is no accountability for this incident despite an Ambassador and a Foreign Minister having been interviewed for television. Additionally, a response team was sent out by the Royal Air Force. It is not so much about blame as it is about transparency and accountability, and the omission of material despite its availability, whether the shooters or their informers (or both) had been entrapped or not does not detract from the facts. It was downed by explosion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.148.209 (talk) 17:57, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

• I have moved your comment down here rather than in the middle of a ten-year old discussion. MilborneOne (talk) 17:20, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Have you a reliable source for all these alternate theories ? (missile, bomb or something else) An official statement from an Ambassador or a Foreign Minister avaialble. Its unlikely that the Royal Air Force would have said anything in public but do you have a British government press release or similar ? MilborneOne (talk) 17:24, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

additional sources

The primary source for this article has been a letter about a secret report, and efforts to keep "Israeli military" or "Israeli missiles" omitted from the article. There are sufficient references to include the omitted terms. Regarding a balancing of references, it would not be fair to try to hide behind a notion that material was not published in English. see below

Hungary

• 7/24 news: piece includes CGI simulation [youtube.com/watch?v=AMqddZ6_1a8] =seems OK
• hirTV:an interview from 1975 (PFSZ-IRODA BUDAPESTEN 1975) =not verifiable (not enough info such as: author, publisher, date, how can be accessed)
• hirTV:an hour-long in-depth documentary; includes audiotape of statement of RAF Navigator Tom Morcross, includes interviews of former Finnish Government high-level officials, includes photographs alleged to show suspicious cargo being loaded onto the plane prior to departure, includes photographs allegedly taken on the sea within the area of the debris field, etc,etc. =not verifiable (not enough info such as author, publisher, date, how can be accessed)
• hirTV:a talk-show roundtable (Retrograd) {youtube.com/watch?v=zAiFyLBRLTA] =seems OK

Finland

• Suomen Kuvalehti article =not verifiable (not enough info such as: author, publisher, date, how can be accessed)
• excerpts from statements made by government staff [hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000004150676.html] =not verifiable (behind paywall)
• Heikki Paavolan kohtalokas lento TV 1:ssa 1.7.2003 klo 20. Sinibaretti (in Finnish). No. 3. 2003. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.135.142 (talk) 02:57, 24 June 2018 (UTC) =not verifiable (not enough info such as: author, publisher, how can be accessed, which TV (Yle TV1?), what is the exact name of the program (is Sinibaretti part of the name?) WikiHannibal (talk) 09:25, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

@WikiHannibal: No, that's the title of a review of the said program in the magazine Sinibaretti. The program itself is: "Lento-onnettomuus". Tosi tarina (in Finnish). 1 July 2003. Yle TV1. There are re-runs of this program, but this exact episode hasn't aired yet this time.

Regarding verifiability, you and I know full well that sources behind a paywall, and TV programs, are allowed (see WP:SOURCEACCESS). If you have a problem with the cited sources, you need to have it in terms of doubting if they actually say what is claimed, not the sources themselves. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 10:30, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for clarification. Does the review have an author? As you can see, I was merely trying to sort the list of sources by the unregisterd editor to help him distinguish which sources can better support his proposed edits while reducing the possibility of them being reverted (as his edits so far were not supported by inline citation). WikiHannibal (talk) 13:21, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

I'm relying on this, which gives "Sari Kauritsalo, e. Paavola". Don't ask me what "e." means, it's not a standard abbreviation in Finnish. It might be a transcription error for "E." as an initial. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 15:56, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

Omroep NTR

• short piece on the shootdown of Malev 240 =not verifiable (not enough info such as: author, publisher, date, how can be accessed)

Surely there are more, including MTV Hirado archives, Magyar radio archives, etc, etc. 126.161.177.230 (talk) 17:52, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Hi, I tagged your sources from the point of view of verifiability, focusing in the first step only on the possibility of identifying and checking the sources (in cursive). I think only two of them can be used. The next step would be to check their reliability. WikiHannibal (talk) 20:45, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

I was asked to check some info on my talk page. Here's the results: the two Finns on the flight were Veli Heikki Juhani Paavola and Otto Mauri Krohn. Paavola was a UN observer in Golan. Krohn was an engineer working for ILO in Amman. The source is "Heikki Paavolan kohtalokas lento TV 1:ssa 1.7.2003 klo 20". Sinibaretti (in Finnish). No. 3. 2003. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Finnusertop (talk • contribs) 13:52, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Disruptive Editing

I dont see any talk page consensus to add this conspiracy stuff and it addition has been challenged by a number of users. Please note that this article may be protected from editing if further non-consensual changes are made, thanks. MilborneOne (talk) 14:58, 8 August 2018 (UTC)