Talk:Mahmudali Chehregani

This page is ridiculous, Sources are a JOKE

The sources regarding Kurds, none of them actually work, worse their from "blogs", even worse from nationalistic blogs.

This page resembles a gossip page from a magazine instead of a reputable encyclopedia entry.

Could we have some neutral sources please.

For example, accusations are made against his health conditions using ridiculous sources. Let's look at some reputable sources like "Amnesty International" shall we.

Iran: Health concern/Unfair trial - Dr Mahmudali Chehregani Iran: Health concern/Unfair trial - Dr Mahmudali Chehregani Download: UNKNOWNHTMLPDFIndex Number: MDE 13/011/2000 Categories: Iran, Middle East And North Africa, Middle East And North Africa

Prisoner of conscience Dr Mahmudali Chehregani is reported to be in a critical condition in Tabriz prison clinic. He has apparently been on hunger strike since 19 May, in protest at receiving an unfair trial. A diabetic, with heart disease, prison doctors have reportedly recommended that he be released on medical grounds.\n\n

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/MDE13/011/2000

Contrary to what the Wiki entry is claiming, this guy does have health conditions and faced an unfair trial in Iran.

Torke —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.139.55.7 (talk) 02:06, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Sources

I don't think http://politic.iran-emrooz.de can be considered neutral and reliable source. Please cite neutral sources, which have no connections with Iran. This is an article about living person, and should comply with the wiki requirements. Grandmaster 06:35, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Neither can Gamoh or sources written by politicans of Turkey. BTW how are the Talysh doing? --alidoostzadeh 06:36, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Talysh are doing pretty well. I have many Talysh relatives. I think the separatist movements should receive a fair coverage. Of course GAMOH is not a neutral source, we can refer to them only to describe their views. But Iranian sources are also biased, obviously they don't like this person, and I can see why. Therefore we should use neutral sources to describe Chehregani, the rules require to use sources with no bias. So far I think we can only confirm that he aims at separation of Azerbaijan from Iran, even though his organization claims autonomy. Grandmaster 06:43, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Most of the sources on Chehregani are in Persian. The article by Mazdak Bamadadan (iran-emrooz.de) is well sourced and references actually pan-turkist sites like [1]. Also him calling Persians Dogs is well known from CNN Turk TV. If you think the quotes from there by Chehregani are false, you need to prove it. His reputation is well known. --alidoostzadeh 06:47, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually it’s your obligation to come up with reliable sources. I don’t know much about this person and don’t support any separatist movements, but according to the rules the info on living persons should be thoroughly verified. Grandmaster 06:55, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Sure it is verified as it is from pan-turkists sites that are quoted which would mean it is from his own type of sites. Any site based on political issues can be claimed to be non-neutral from one side or another. But the quotes collected from Chehregani are based on his own words and sites. I am sure you might not like the content of this site: [2] and consider it biased. I do not want to start some sort of edit war but Chehregani's connection to MHP party and also Elchibey is well known and I am sure you know these two parties have made a good deal of fascist statements regarding other ethnicities. Tell me which quote you have a problem with. I can quote Kurdish sites that also mention Chehregani said the same things about Kurds and Persians. --alidoostzadeh 06:47, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Why don’t we ask some neutral party for help? I don’t want to be much involved with Chohragani or get into an edit war, but I think most of negative info on him is just propaganda. On the other hand, there could be some truth to such claims as well. We just need to double check everything. I think we can mention this issue on Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard, an they will help to sort this out. Grandmaster 07:04, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Tell me which statement you disagree with and I will find a pan-turkist site that claims it. Here is the part about asking the Turkish army to come to Iraqi Kurdistan in English. [3]. Of course the site not neutral, but it is pan-turkist site, but if both the iran-emrooz.de site and pan-turkist site claim it, then it can not be false. The letter to Khatami about stopping the birth of Kurds are in some Kurdish sites as well other Iranian sites. Any statement you disagree that he has said, I will find more info on. --alidoostzadeh 07:07, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I placed a request for help here: [4] I hope other users will help us to sort this issue out. I don’t really want to be involved in this one much. And I would like to see a reliable source on the letter to Khatami and obviously for all your recent additions. Grandmaster 07:14, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Here is Chehregani's supporter statement about Kurds: [5] (note in the end long live chehregani and the site is called Guney Azerbaijan). This will add to the veracity of the statements I brought. Also the Iran-emrooz site refers to Chehregani's site directly. --alidoostzadeh 07:24, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

His supporter is not the same as Chehregani. I think if he had indeed said something like that, it should have been registered somewhere outside of Iranian circles, especially considering that Western media takes some interest in him. We just need a better research in Western media. Grandmaster 07:37, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

- ::::::::: Here is Chehregani's statement according to a Kurdish site: [6]. - ::::::::: [7] - ::::::::: Chehregani receiving Turkishness award: [8] - ::::::::: Translation: According to the separatist Azeri newspaper "Sedayeh Oroomiyeh", Chehregani in his recent trip to Turkey visited the tomb of alp arsalan turkes. The report continues: "he also participated in the Turkulug Guni (the day of Turkism. In this ceremony, the first minister of Turkey Devlet Bahecli (current leader of MHP) participated and and gave 15 people inclduing Chehregani the Turkulug Guni award". - - :::::::; Note I am quoting only Kurdish anti-Iranian government sites and pan-turkist sites which also confirm the report of Iran-emrooz. Also Western Media does not care much as a while back they hosted someone by the name of Rahim Shahbazi. [9] Also Western Media is limited in this account and Western Media like Fox News, CNN and etc. are as biased as any other source. The statements I have brought about Kurds and Persians from Chehregani are verifable through his site and the site of Kurdish groups opposing the Iranian government as well as Iranian newspapers outside of Iran. --alidoostzadeh 07:45, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay here it is straight from Chehregani's site about Kurds:

Azerbaycanin güneyinde teqriben 500 min nefer gelme kürdün yasadigina toxunan اِhreqanli qeyd etdi ki, eger onlar ِzlerini normal aparsalar, problem olmayacaq: “Eks teqdirde, kürdler geldikleri kimi geri dِnmeli olacaqlar.[10]

Now is there is any other statement you object to? --alidoostzadeh 07:51, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

This is the first time I am hearing of this guy and don't give a particular damn about his ideas, however you cannot deny the fact that the article in its current state contains many weasel and should-avoid words.. This is a living person, and as such, there is an extremely strict criteria for these types of articles.. Considering that you are putting time to this article, please try to clean it up a bit, add a photo and make it more encyclopedic.. Coz it is a living person biography, I would avoid using judgement call words, please avoid statements like are clearly racist, any admin would remove these on sight and then the whole integrity of the article would be compromised, as for the letter where he asks the births of Kurds to be limited, I would add it ASAP, or it will be removed, without solid sources it is clearly libellous and Wiki would be open legal proceedings if they remained in its current state.. And a couple of English sources wouldn't hurt either :)) Baristarim 08:13, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

If you are not sure about a statement put a infront of it. For example the guy claims he is a doctor but that is factually false and he has not written any thesis in Tehran university. ALso Kurdish sites (anti-Iranian government) mention the letter. I do agree that the article needs a bit of clean up. If you are not sure about any of the statements I brought put a and I will bring either a Kurdish site, Iranian site, or pan-turkist site or all three to verify it. Just like I brought the statement about Kurds both from his site and an Iranian site. --alidoostzadeh 08:16, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree the article needs some cosmetic improvements. Btw can you do a google search on him and bahecli. I am sure his turkishness medal awarded by Bahecli are also in some Turkish news sites. Else I will have to rely on a pan-turkist site as well as a Kurdish site. --alidoostzadeh 08:22, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Edit conflict - As I said, I dont care about this guy nor what he thinks. Nevertheless, I hope you understood what I was trying to say about living persons biographies.. This is the first time I am hearing of this guy and subsequently of this letter, so I have no idea about it.. On the other hand please try to find that letter (or its mention) from an interview with him or a site directly published by him, otherwise it would be hearsay and would have to be labelled it has been claimed that X has sent a letter.., you see what I mean? I am not doubting the sincerity of the info that you put forward, just saying that it would look much better if certain claims were sourced.. :) BTW, just for info: Grey Wolfs is not a party, it is an affiliated (mostly youth) organization of MHP, the party is only MHP.. reffing of links under a references section rather than linking them outright wouldn't hurt either :)).. otherwise it's cool.. cheers! Baristarim 08:26, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Let me see for the medal.. i will try to dig info on it.. Baristarim 08:26, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Still the sources are no good, except for Musavat website. According to them, he indeed said that if Kurds (those who recently migrated to Azerbaijan) behave normally, there will be no problems, otherwise they would have to leave. He also opposed the use of the ethnonym Azeri, calling it Russian and Persian invention, and said that he calls for the autonomy of Azerbaijan within Iran at this stage, quite the contrary to what he said in America. We need good and reliable (unbiased) sources for the following statements:

He and a group of pan-turkist nationalists wrote a letter to Khatami asking him to limit the birth of Kurds in Iran and has called Kurds in Western Azerbaijan guests of Azerbaijanis.

Chohraganli used the word Fars Kupaklari (Persian Dogs) to refer to Persian Iranians on CNN Turk.

His group has also advocated the invasion of Northern Iraq by Turkey and considers Mosul and Kirkuk to be ancient Turkish lands under Kurdish occupation.

Please try to get sources with no connection to Iran, then the article will have more credibility. Grandmaster 09:21, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Your definition of biased is not necessarily considered biased. The first two are also available in anti-Iranian government Kurdish websites and so far I have provided one source and I am in the process of digging more sources. Also he has no right to tell Kurds to behave or leave! The last one is from his web site. Also he has anti-Armenian statements as well and I will have to dig those out, but you could have put a {{{Talkfact}}}. As per News items, overall anything in the news can be considered biased by one source or another. What matters is the factuality of his statements. --alidoostzadeh 09:31, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Check the rules: Controversial material (negative, positive, or just highly questionable) that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous. Therefore all unsourced and poorly sourced statements should be removed immidiately, without any tags. Grandmaster 09:34, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

That is your criterion. So far you have not shown anything that the sources I provided are unveriable or poorly sourced! As per the statement against Kurds and the Khatami letter, it is in this website: [11].

سالی است که ناسیونالیستهای ترک در ایران به انحاء مختلف نگرانی خود را از «تغییر ترکیب جمعیتی» بخشی از آذربایجان اعلام میدارند و خواهان جلوگیری از این امر::::: میباشند. اولین بار دهها تن از روشنفکران, نمایندگان مجلس و نهادها و انجمنهای مدنی و فرهنگی ترک ایران در نامه ای که برای خاتمی نوشتند از وی خواستند که تمهیدات لازم را بکار گیرد تا از«تحمیل قره باغی دیگر بر پیکر آذربایجان» جلوگیری نمایند. آنها ضمن توهین و بی احترامی به شهروندان ایرانی همسایه خود از مقامات دولتی میخواهند که جلوی «زاد و ولدهای بی حد و حصر و مهاجرت های بی رویه» کردها را بگیرند. در اینجا متن این بخش از نامه را میاورم« 7_ هشدار به مقامات سیاسی کشور در مورد اینکه امروز عده ای از نژادگرایان و آشوب طلبان قومی خاص با تاسی به اسلاف خود می خواهند در منطقه آذربایجان غربی معضل قره باغی دیگر را متحمل آذربایجان نمایند و در این گوشه از خاک عزیز کشورمان نحوست و شومی چندین دهه قبل پدرانشان را تکرار نمایند, که زادوولدهای بی حد و حصر و مهاجرت های بی رویه و نیز ادعاهای کذب و بی پایه و اساس یکی از نمایندگان مجلس و چند نویسنده دیگر که دولت باید برای آن تدابیری را اتخاذ نمایند شاهد این ادعای ماست»

دکتر محمود چهرگانی از امضا کنندگان این نامه خود در گزارشی که در امریکا منتشر نموده است

--alidoostzadeh 09:36, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

It is not my criterion, Ali. It is wiki rules. Another quote from Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons:

Any assertion in a biography of a living person that might be defamatory if untrue must be sourced. Without reliable third-party sources, a biography will violate No original research and Verifiability, and could lead to libel claims.

Information available solely on partisan websites or in obscure newspapers should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all. Information found in self-published books, newspapers, or websites/blogs should never be used, unless written by the subject (see below).

Not all widely read newspapers and magazines are equally reliable. There are some magazines and newspapers which print gossip much of which is false. While such information may be titillating that does not mean it has a place here. Before repeating such gossip ask yourself consider if the information is true and if it is relevant to an encyclopaedic article on that subject. When these magazines print information they suspect is untrue they often include weasel phrases. Look out for these. If the magazine doesn't think the story is true, then why should we?

As we both know, so far you have not used any relaible third party sources. I hope you'll rectify that. Your latest source appears to be Iranian as well. How about third party? Grandmaster 09:40, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I think your are interpreting the rules. The latest source is from a Kurdish nationalist anti-Iranian website that calls for a loose federalism of Iran. In it discusses the Khatami letter where Chehregani and other pan-turkists asked the government to take measures in order to lessen the birth-rate of Kurds so that there won't be another Karabagh in Azerbaijan! Now those are two different sites with opposing point of view affirming the same thing. You can ask Heja who is an anti-Iranian Kurdish editor to confirm that the site I quoted is not pro-Iran government or opposition.

You asked about this quote: His group has also advocated the invasion of Northern Iraq by Turkey and considers Mosul and Kirkuk to be ancient Turkish lands under Kurdish occupation.. I brought a link from his own group. How is that 3rd party?

Finally the only statement that I have not provided what you might consider 3rd party is the CNN-Turk statement. Since all the other statements I brought from Iran-emrooz has been verified by Chehregani's site (the 500,000 Kurds, the support for Turkish invasion) or Kurdish anti-Iranian site (the limit birth-rate), I will have to leave the Iran-emrooz quote which Chehregani calls Persians "Fars Kopeklari" in CNN Turk TV. There also anti-Armenians statements which I will bring forth. --alidoostzadeh 09:47, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

We need neutral sources. Kurdish site also has its own agenda. Check the rules: Without reliable third-party sources, a biography will violate No original research and Verifiability, and could lead to libel claims. I understand your position towards separatists, and I also oppose separatism, but we need to adhere to the rules. Please find a reliable third-party source to back-up your claims. Grandmaster 09:53, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I know those two rules well and none of them apply. If there are two disputing parties (me and you), then the third party is another party. For example the Iranian government is one party, the Iranian opposition is another party, the Kurdish opposition is another party and Chehregani's website is another party. What you say about agenda does not make sense. Every site in the world has its own agenda. That is why I have quoted from Chehregani's site, Iranian opposition and also Kurdish opposition. Either he wrote the letter to Khatami with a group of pan-turkists or he did not. A separatist Kurdish site as well as an Iranian opposition site confirms that he did. If you think such a letter did not occur or the sources are weak, then the burden of proof is on you to disprove it. There is absolutely no original research here since I have added nothing except two news reports. If there is a Libel claim, then it is against the Iranian opposition site as well as the Kurdish site both of which oppose each other. --alidoostzadeh 10:01, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Check Wikipedia:Reliable sources:

Issues to look out for

Do the sources have an agenda, conflict of interest, strong views, or other bias which may color their report?

I don't have much interest in this topic, but the rules should be observed. Grandmaster 10:13, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

The two articles I referenced do not break the rule and are reliable. Specially the one from the Kurdish site where it actually tries to make bridge with Azerbaijani opponents of the regime and is strongly against the regime itself. So is the other site. The fact of the matter is that a claim has been made. Now if you believe those two sites are wrong, you need to prove it by showing that Chehregani did not sign that letter. The content of the letter is available on the Kurdish site I mentioned. Any political site (even US news sources) contains strong viewpoints and Bias and agenda. But we are not talking about view points, conflicts of interests, agenda, we are talking about the letter that was signed by Chehregani. Either he did sign such a letter or he did not. Based on what he said about Kurds on his own website, and based on the fact that he claims the Kurdish provinces as Azeri and even claims cities like Mahabad on his map and based on the fact that he would like Turkey to invade Northern Iraq (from his own sources) ,and based on the fact that he has strong connections with MHP, there is absolutely nothing contradictory with his viewpoint in that letter asking Khatami to limit the Kurdish birthrate. If you think the letter is suspect please prove it. It is very consistent with his behavior and two sites with two opposing point of views mention it. --alidoostzadeh 10:21, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

And finally here is a separatist Azeri site affirming the letter [12]. So that is a Kurdish site, an Azeri separatist site and an Iranian opposition site! --alidoostzadeh 10:36, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Does this Azeri separatist site say that: He and a group of pan-turkist nationalists wrote a letter to Khatami asking him to limit the birth of Kurds in Iran and has called Kurds in Western Azerbaijan guests of Azerbaijanis? Grandmaster 10:40, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

The Azeri site says 64 Azeri newspaper writers, intellectuals, writers wrote a letter to Khatami on 15th of Khordad 1377 (Iranian calendar about 8 years) complaining about the high birth rate and immigration(?!) of Kurds. The actual quote from the letter is from the Kurdish website directly from the letter: هشدار به مقامات سیاسی کشور در مورد اینکه امروز عده ای از نژادگرایان و آشوب طلبان قومی خاص با تاسی به اسلاف خود می خواهند در منطقه آذربایجان غربی معضل قره باغی دیگر را متحمل آذربایجان نمایند و در این گوشه از خاک عزیز کشورمان نحوست و شومی چندین دهه قبل پدرانشان را تکرار نمایند, که زادوولدهای بی حد و حصر و مهاجرت های بی رویه و نیز ادعاهای کذب و بی پایه و اساس یکی از نمایندگان مجلس و چند نویسنده دیگر که دولت باید برای آن تدابیری را اتخاذ نمایند شاهد این ادعای ماست and Chehregani signed the letter as mentioned by these sites. Trasnlation: We warn the government about a group of ethnicists who like their ancestors want to make another Karabagh in the region Azerbaijan and repeat the crime of their ancesotrs (persumably referencing Simk) with their high birth-rates and constant migration and the opinion of a member of Majles (Kurdish parlimentarian ). The government must formulate ways to solve this problem. So they consider Kurds as guest (complaining about migrations) and have complained about their high birthrates and asked the government to remedy the situation. Whereas the Kurds of Western Azerbaijan are natives of the area as well alongside with Assyrian, Azeris and Armenians. So the letter as shown is not madeup. --alidoostzadeh 10:50, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, this letter appears to be a protest against migration of Kurds to Azerbaijan (which some Azerbaijani nationalists think is sponsored by the Iranian government to reduce the proportion of Azerbaijanis in the region). It is not written by Chohragani, he’s one of those who signed it. The facts should be put in a proper perspective. Grandmaster 10:57, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

There is no migration of Kurds, Kurds are part of Western Azerbaijan since antiquity (medes) and in the Islamic times one can mention many kurdish dynasties like Shaddadid and Rawwadids before the Seljuqids. Also migration within ones country is the norm as many people have migrated all over Iran or US or where-ever. So no one is a guest in his own country. Also it directly complains about the higher birth-rate of Kurds and asks the government to formulate measures against it. Chehregani in his map claims Mahabad to be an Azeri city. Also Bijar and Garous.. which are majority Kurdish and of course many of the Talysh, Persian speaking,.. areas. The letter also does not accuse the Iranian government, but it makes a false accusation against Kurdish groups. The only portion of my sentence that is not based on letter is the term pan-turkist where as this itself is based upon Chehregani's strong connection with MHP and visiting the tomb of Alp Arsalan Turkesh and receiving the Turkishness award from Devlet Bahecli which is the same as a pan-turkist although perhaps a Turkicist would be a better term. So after you complained about [[13]] whose author referred to Chehregani's own website [[14]], I have verified 1) 500,000 Kurdish migrants statement from Chehregani's own website. 2) the letter to Khatami from three different websites with opposing views (one Azeri nationalist). 3) The support for Turkish invasion of Iraq from his own source.

Now the CNN turk statement from the Iran-emrooz.de is also factual (like all the material so far in that article) and I have also heared it from an Azeri speaking friend who watched the CNN Turk interview. I will add more details and sources to that soon hopefully. His connection with MHP and visiting the tomb of Alp Arsalan Turkesh is mentioned in several pan-turkist Persian sites, but I believe a general turkish newspaper report can be found or else I will add those sites instead. Also I mentioned anti-Armenian, which is clear from his map [15] where Armenia does not exist as country and of course his connection to people like Elchibey and Alp Arsalan Turkesh is sufficient proof. But actual statements from him can be found with this regard. --alidoostzadeh 11:18, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Material about him and his few man party shows his political idea. That is why it is related as it is his political viewpoint. --alidoostzadeh 07:13, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I think that info belongs to the article about SANAM. I don’t think he personally approves everything that is published there. Also, why the Amnesty info is being distorted. The AI says: Amnesty International believes that he has been imprisoned to suppress the non-violent expression of his conscientiously held beliefs, and as such is a prisoner of conscience. This is being replaced to attribution of it to some report, while it is clear that it is the position of AI. --Grandmaster 07:23, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

He is the leader of a pan-turkist party and his viewpoints are represented in gamoh website. He is the spokeman, leader, idealog of the party. For example the MAP exactly coincides with his viewpoint that Kurds are guests and he has stated claims on Qazvin, Hamadan and etc.. in his own statements. So there is nothing wrong with analyzing the map since he has himself said Qazvin, Hamadan.. are part of Azerbaijan. Then I brought a BBC map to compare it too. As per the Armenian genocide, it is for sure that he denies it as well since he has connection to the MHP party as well as it is in the website. If there are ideas conflicting his own, then it would not be in the gamoh site. As per the amnesty report, that might not be their current belief (2006) so I put according to a report. --alidoostzadeh 07:43, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Also his map is exact replica of his own words: Azerbaycan bir dene Serqi Azerbaycan deyil ki, merkezi Tebriz olsun. Bizim merkezi Urmiye olan Qerbi Azerbaycanimiz, Erdebil, Zencen, Hemedan, Qezvinimiz var." --alidoostzadeh 08:01, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

So the map is not just from his site as he himself has expressed support for such a bogus map. As per the Armenian genocide, agains this is on the website of his party, but it is sufficient to see that Chehregani denies it by reading this Azeri report. [16]. Also I do not think SANAM qualifies as an organization since it is not registered political group anywhere nor is it mentioned by any government (for example PKK and Tamil tigers are mentioned by different government) thus the expressions on the website are from his. I will try to find direct quotes as I have so far, but the indirect quote from his spokemen Hossein Elali about support of Turkish invasion of Iraq is clear from his meeting with the turkmen front and Devlet Bahecli as well his party advocating the Turkish invasion (and he is the leader of the party). --alidoostzadeh 08:05, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Still the only non-partisan source so far is Amnesty International. I think we should rely more on established non-partisan sources, than obscure ones. Support or denial of what some call “Armenian genocide” is not a serious issue, many Western and even Russian scholars doubt that it should be classified as genocide, and Britannica refers to it as a massacre, and not genocide. Why this should be included in the article, especially when Chehregani personally expressed no opinion on that? Support of Turkish invasion is also not a big issue and does not come from Chehregani. Iraq has been invaded by almost everyone now, even Azerbaijan has its military there. I think the section on his political beliefs should focus on the ideas which he publicly expressed, and not those attributed to him by association. Right now it looks like Iranian editors are trying to demonize him, and while he is indeed a nationalist and expressed some questionable opinions, the current picture of him is far from accurate and has an obvious bias. We should work on better sources. Grandmaster 10:11, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually amnesty international has made many mistakes. Some person files a report and then they usually report it. I recall a report while back that claimed there are 8 million Arabs in Iran! Which is nonsense. I would like to know who filed the report and who accepted it. Amnesty international although a respectable organization is a political organization and can make mistakes. Just like the report about Chehregani losing sight or being paralyzed was false and was probably made up by one of his followers and sent to amnesty. But I have no problem with quoting it as long it can also be criticized with evidence. Also I am not discussing the validity/invalidity of the Armenian genocide , all I am discussing is that he denies it a, which he does. He also considers Persians, Kurds, Russians and Armenians as the enemies of Azerbaijani people. Again I am not discussing the validity of the statement (which is false and usually any ethnicist creates enemies based on race/nationality), but I am stating it from his own writing. And that is a political view and appropriate. There is nothing bias about that since although I am against him, I am quoting his own opinion from his own words. Also the material I have brought from Chehregani are both his own words and also the words of his opponents and the words of other groups. So they all are coherent and do not contradict each other. a) For example the letter to Khatami was signed by him and it is reported in three sites with three different opinions. b) The part about Kurds being guests and going back if they misbehave are his own words as well as opposing viewpoint sites. c) The parts claiming lands beyond Azerbaijan ethnic territory are from his own words as well as the map on his site and this contradicts BBC map and every other map on Iran. The only thing there might be room for debate is the d) Support of the Turkish invasion. This definitely comes form Chehregani since he is the leader of the group and the group's spokeman Hussein Ellili expressed it as the official position of the group (GAMOH) whom Chehregani is the leader of. Well if you think I am demonizing him, then it is not my fault, since his associates and similar minded fellows like Alp Arsalan Turkesh, Elchibey, MHP party.. have said some nasty stuff and I am just quoting his own words. --alidoostzadeh 10:27, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Here’s an HRW report: [17] This a very respected organization. Also in this interview to an American newspaper he says something different. "We want to change this regime in Iran and replace it with a democratic, secular and federal government," said Mr. Chehregani, a former linguistics professor at the University of Tehran who was arrested in 1995 on charges of speaking against the Iranian government and advocating separatism. Based in Washington since July 2002, Mr. Chehregani said in an interview that his group was working with other Iranian ethnic minority groups — such as the Iranian Kurds, Baluchis, Turkmen and Arabs — to form a common political front that could challenge Tehran. [18]

And here’s his position from a reliable source: [19] Grandmaster 10:56, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually note the source for the first one: Telephone interview with Dr. Muhammad Ali Chehregani, July 27, 1996.. That is not a reliable source and I will have to remove it since it is direct talk with him alleging he is a doctor where hs is not. As for his political views, it will change depending on the season. In some places he has called for separatism and his interview in Azeri with several sites he has called for complete separatism as well as in the NIAC meeting, but infront of other places he calls for federalism. Both of these viewpoints have been brought and shows internal contradiction within his thoughts. --alidoostzadeh 19:30, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

The views of SANAM website and Chehregani don’t coincide, which he accepted himself, see the following dialogue:

Q: I read on your website that re-unification with the Republic of Azerbaijan is your movement’s ultimate goal, please address the discrepancy between the website and your statement here today. Also, the plight of your people is too common in the region. Do you see any similarities between your struggle and the struggle of the Kurds in Turkey?

A: I have never said unification is our goal. But I cannot predict what will happen. Russia divided Azerbaijan in 1813. If and when Azerbaijani Turks decide to reunite no one can stop it. The Germans and Vietnamese reunited and it is not unreasonable to believe that the Azerbaijani Turks will unite. Reunification, however, is not our goal. We are seeking cultural and linguistic rights for the Azerbaijani Turks within Iran’s territorial integrity.

So I don’t think it is correct to ascribe the website’s views personally to Chehregani. Grandmaster 10:59, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

The words about Kurds are directly from Chehregani's website.. He has flipped flopped on federalism and separatism many times as I brought statements with regards too both. Sanam is not a party, it is just chehregani and couple of other people. And I am not talking about an issue from the website, I am quoting Chehregani or the spokeman of his party whom he is a leader of. --alidoostzadeh 20:18, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

(moved from article)

He is one of the important and honestly people I know him. all of above views are wrong. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.225.144.50 (talk • contribs) 20:23, 14 October 2006.

OR removal

Removed the OR material in the article. I don't see our having a link called "Azeri genocide" is supposed to be anti-Armenian. If someone can provide a justification for this POV, would be interesting to hear it. Atabek 22:30, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

This article is a character assassination attempt, it contains mostly the negative info taken from obscure blogs, etc. The reference to anti-Armenian sentiment for supporting Azeri genocide is OR. --Grandmaster 07:12, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

• Ditto. See WP:BLP: "This article must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons. Controversial material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous." Regards. E104421 (talk) 17:03, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Everything is sourced from his own website. Chehregani has called Persians as dog in CNN Turk. He has petitioned Iranian government to stop the birthrate of Kurds in Westeran Azerbaijan. And he has made anti-Armenian statements. I don't mind ethnic rights for any group under the concept of territorial of integrity, weather it is Talysh, Lezgins in the republic of Azerbaijan, Kurds/Zazas in Turkey and Azeris in Iran (although I do not think this one is like Kurds in Turkey). But Chehregani is the typical pan-Turkist as he states he follows elchibey's guideline. Also mind wiki-retaliation, just because there is a disagreement on another article, there is no reason to jump into other articles. For example google books has a good amount of links for "ethnic cleansing" and Ataturk, who is a dead person. Or the article on PKK is heavily biased against the Kurdish side and just cites many newspapers that are Turkish. Both of those articles are probably more read than something on an obscure person. Or there are a good deal of eyewitness accounts from Iranian travellers on the Armenian Genocide that is not included right now into the article. You do not see Iranian users interfering in those contested articles, so it is better to keep calm and not bring a simple historic dispute in another article into a more controversial article. I am assuming good faith overall and I am just mentioning the direction we could be possibly heading in if both sides do not calm down (which will lead to arbcomm and etc.). --alidoostzadeh (talk) 20:27, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

A JOKE!

This article is a bad joke. Is this about a person, a biography, or somebody tried to prove this person wrong? Somebody clean up please! 89.36.61.55 (talk) 21:42, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, everything in the article is substantiated very well and are realities about the person and his lack of integrity.

The reason that all his contradictory words is because he needed to focus and position himself differently inside and outside Iran. He needed to avoid talk of separatistism for such talks are very unpopular among Iranian Azaris inside Iran. However, outside Iran, he could only find support and funds from Pan Turanist and Western sources. So he adopted to that tone.

Anyhow, if it looks like tragic but well substantiated and real. I am sure authors welcome any substantiated knowledge on the contrary and also are willing to clear any part that needs clarification and citations. Persian Magi (talk) 07:14, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Some of the big errors, or bad editing

If this is a wiki article it does not need to judge, but to present sources. Let e copy-paste some writings that contradict this principle. And by the way, I am not a regular wiki participant so maybe others would attend to take appropriate measures. Some of the judgemental texts in the article are as follows:

one ) "Chehregani has so far not been able to bring evidence that he has a PhD from Tehran University. On his website he claims that he received a degree from Tehran University, yet another biography claims that he received his doctorate from Baku university.[10] In an interview with HRW organizations he alleges that he is a doctor, but so far Mr. Chehregani has not shown that he indeed obtained a PhD from Tehran University." In case this person is lying, why has the editor tried to prove him a liar? Where was he supposed to bring that evidence, and for what purpose?

two ) "Yet regional languages are used in the Iranian Media and Chehregani claims to have specialized in teaching the Turkish language at Tehran University, which contradicts his claims." I suppose the editor meant "Azer Turkish". So if Mr Chehregani studied that language in Tehran University that DOEN NOT contradict his claim because univerity is not exactly the same as school, so why is the editor even trying to prove Chehregani wrong by actually making false claims?

The article simply goes too far in demonising and defaming a person, too much for a biography, and I think Iranians doing these editings (I am Iranian too but not active here) are not doing anyone any good by these types of articles. There is simply TOO MUCH in this article and I do not have the necessary time to write about all of them, but the article deinitely needs some serious overhaul to become an informative article and not a Iranian-style propaganda trying to defame and ridicule a person. Nobody is perfect afterall. 89.136.167.247 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 17:27, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Completely biased

 Currently in Iran there are courses of Chinese or Swahili Language in universities. Is this a sign 
that chinses is a the language of some schools in Iran. 
 Turks are more than 35% of the Irans population not 15%.
 This article is written completely by Pan Iranists.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.106.63.124 (talk) 05:38, 11 October 2008 (UTC) 

Exaggerating your numbers in Iran will not win you any arguments. Go read the sources on the "Azerbaijani" wiki page and you will find the number of turks to be even lower than 15% in Iran. Just because the facts in this article don't fit your warped worldview does not make it "written completely by pan-Iranists". --Qahramani44 (talk) 27 November 2018 —Preceding undated comment added 17:57, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Rename of Category

Some of you may wish to participate in the discussion on renaming the category Armenian Genocide deniers to Armenian Genocide skeptics. The discussion is here. --Anthon.Eff (talk) 18:17, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Scrap this article

This article is an embarrassment to WP. Evidently biased, written wholly in POV with unreliable sources. Fixing this article to meet WP standards would just leave a mess so i propose it should just be scrapped instead. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.237.12.132 (talk) 00:25, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

UNPO is not a reliable source

Due to previous disscusion : [20] ,

The UNPO is probably not a reliable source. It seems to represent extreme minority positions and also appears to be a questionable source. It does not appear to be received as credible or widely acknowledged as a credible organization. I strongly recommend sticking to what's been reported about the organization's statements and views by traditional reliable publications

--Alborz Fallah (talk) 08:04, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Citation needed therefore I will delete this sentence

"However, contrary to Chehregani's claims, regional languages, including Azeri are routinely used in Iranian Media. Moreover, Chehregani claims to have specialized in teaching the Turkish language at Tehran University, which contradicts his claims that the Turkish language is forbidden in Iranian schools."

There is no references AT ALL given in this and i believe this is just editors own claim. Therefore I will delete this untill references are put in.Tugrulirmak (talk) 15:09, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Remove links to MHP

"Connections to the MHP his connection with far-right Turkish Nationalist Movement Party (MHP) is also noticeable and recently he and the leader of the Turkmen front were awarded the medal of Turkishness by MHP leader Devlet Bahçeli. On his trip, Chehregani paid his respects to Alparslan Türkeş, the founder of the MHP party.[24][25]"

This should be removed as the information does not fill the criteria of being sourced by a reliable source. The source of this information is called mergewer.blogsky.com/?PostID=12. This is a blog writen by a source that is banned from the website he/she has written in. We do not know who wrote it and most importantly it is a blog conveying opinion rather than fact. The evidence therefore can not be accessed. Tugrulirmak (talk) 17:45, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Section

The section on the Armenian genocide had nothing to do with political views rather historic views. Also its POV to say that because he writes about the Azeri Genocide it is anti-Armenian. With the same logical than it is anti-Turkish to write about the Armenian genocide. This section was really ackward and lacked any real sources, therefore I removed it. Neftchi (talk) 21:05, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Sources

Most of the sources are just blogs. This article needs a serious reevaluation of its sources. Neftchi (talk) 21:10, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

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