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Talk:Mahākāśyapa

Latest comment: 3 years ago by Farang Rak Tham in topic Did you know nomination
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Early texts edit

Latest comment: 14 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

This is an appalling article. There are dozens of early texts that feature Mahakassapa, as well as an extensive legendary biogrpahy, all of which are ignored in this article, which uses only very late east Asian sources, which have nothing to do with the historical figure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.44.28.32 (talk) 20:52, 10 January 2010 (UTC)Reply

External links modified edit

Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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GA Review edit

Latest comment: 4 years ago120 comments2 people in discussion
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Reviewer: Vami IV (talk · contribs) 09:00, 2 April 2020 (UTC)Reply


Opening statement edit

In reviews I conduct, I may make small copyedits. These will only be limited to spelling and punctuation (removal of double spaces and such). I will only make substantive edits that change the flow and structure of the prose if I previously suggested and it is necessary. For replying to Reviewer comment, please use   Done,   Fixed,   Added,   Not done,   Doing..., or   Removed, followed by any comment you'd like to make. I will be crossing out my comments as they are redressed, and only mine. A detailed, section-by-section review will follow. —♠Vami_IV†♠ 09:00, 2 April 2020 (UTC)Reply

Review of this absolute unit will begin once I have slept :). —♠Vami_IV†♠ 09:00, 2 April 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Farang Rak Tham: <!--110--> Is causing all your hidden notes to appear in the article prose. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 14:01, 11 April 2020 (UTC)Reply

I'm experiences errors of the edit conflict function for a while now. Not sure why. Removed errors from the article now.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 16:27, 11 April 2020 (UTC)Reply

Article size edit

At 127k+ bytes total size and 64 gB at the time of writing this, this article is frankly massive. Mahakasyapa is a big deal of course, and that will to some extent waiver size regulations, but those regulations are still in place, and I will be making suggestions that will reduce the size of the article. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 11:11, 3 April 2020 (UTC)Reply

Noted, I understand.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 10:11, 5 April 2020 (UTC)Reply

Lead edit

  • but also a "guarantor of future justice" in the time of Maitreya Could you emphasize here that Maitreya is the coming Buddha? Coming back to Buddhist topics and then reading on from here, this confused me a bit.
  • Having grown weary of the agricultural profession I thought brahmin were priest?
  • Having now read the relevant portion of article, I now think some rewording of this sentence is in order. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 11:02, 5 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
  • I meant of the sentence itself, since our protagonists were overseeing that agricultural work, but this will work. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 13:00, 5 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
  • the historical validity Shrink to "historicity".
  • This further amplified the idea of him being the primary heir and eldest son of the Buddha, which came to be symbolized by the robe Mahākāśyapa had received. This sentence is a little redundant.
  • in a next age. Redundant.
  • How much can you condense paragraph three?
  • Wouldn't it be better for the quality of the article to condense the body of the text instead?--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 10:11, 5 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
  • Gautama Buddha with the next Buddha Maitreya Remove "the next". It's redundant, as the reader by now understands that Meitreya is the next Buddha.
  • Mahākāśyapa was born as Pippali Boldface "Pippali", since it's Mahakasyapa's birth name, and we'll be seeing it a lot.

In early Buddhist texts edit

  • a dozen discourses attributed to Mahākāśyapa have been compiled in a separate section. This is the first mention of any sections of Buddhist text.
  • In the Pāli tradition Isnt' there something this can link to?
  • and in the Chinese Buddhist texts, Move this "the" to in Tibetan language.

Early life edit

  • Magadha Add "in the kingdom of".
  • Although the two agreed to marry, they decided to live celibately, according to both versions of the story. Pippali's parents continued to push them to give up their shared celibacy, but to no avail. Consider: "Both versions agree that the two agreed to marry and to live celibately, to the chagrin of Pippali's parents."
  • Pippali is depicted in the texts Which texts exactly?
  • Shortly after that,[note 2] Pippali met the Buddha, was struck with devotion when seeing him, recognized him as a teacher, and was ordained under him. Thenceforth, he was called Kāśyapa.[19] Condense.
  • Citation [19] should be an efn and contain in-line citations.
  • Shortly after that,[note 2] Move to the start of "Meeting the Buddha".

Monastic life edit

  • The Buddha exhorted Mahākāśyapa that he should practice himself "for the welfare and happiness of the multitude" and impressed upon him that he should take upon himself ascetic practices (Sanskrit: dhūtaguṇa, Pali: dhutaṅga). This is where I would have begun "Monastic life".
  •   Fixed. I've created a new section Meeting the Buddha, and rearranged some paragraphs. I hope this helps.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 21:16, 8 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
  • He also argued he could be an example for next generations of practitioners Change "next" to "incoming".
  • The last paragraph of "Monastic life" does not feel as though it belongs under this section. Rather, at a glance, I think it'd be better under "Teacher and mentor".
  • I don't know, there is a lot about being a good monk, and it's more about being a good student than being a good teacher. Do you think "Monk's life" would be better?--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 21:16, 8 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
  • Hm. A section for his influence on Buddhist monastic rule would be warranted, if you think so. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 12:29, 9 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
  • No, that's not what I meant. Just trying to find a good heading to cover the contents.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 12:58, 9 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
  • but Mahākāśyapa preferred to sit in a respectful manner instead. Shorten; "but Mahākāśyapa politely declined."
  • This helped him to recover. Superfluous, remove.

Robe talk edit

  • All of this robe-talk should be condensed and moved into an efn. At its size, it's rather out of place, and obstructive to the narrative. "Monastic life" feels more like "Robe".
  Removed a great deal.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 21:34, 8 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
  • "The mutual recognition between master and disciple is immediate and intimate."[20] Remove.
  Removed. You don't like it?--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 21:34, 8 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
No, it's just that it's already stated in the lead. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 12:29, 9 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
  • The exchange came to be seen as a gesture of great respect the Buddha had made,[22] which was unprecedented, and a sign that Mahākāśyapa would preside over the First Council after the Buddha's demise.[23] Long and kind of unwieldy at the beginning.
  Fixed.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 21:34, 8 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
  • Early and later texts from different traditions leave the impression that only a person with the great merit as Mahākāśyapa would be able to wear the robe. Ditto.
  Fixed. Simplified the language.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 21:34, 8 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
  • The only reason the robe was highly valuable was that it had been worn by the Buddha, even though it had been obtained from what was considered the lowest source, that is, a female slave discarded in a charnel ground. Too long.
  Fixed.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 21:34, 8 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
  • Also, did the Buddha take the robe off a corpse?
Yes, explained now.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 21:34, 8 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
  • and in the early texts, the robe came from a corpse. Oh.
  • The exchange also echoed a similar exchange Change to "This also echoed an earlier exchange".
  • an association that has also been found in the fieldwork of anthropologist François Bizot, done in Cambodian temples. Condense.
  • (1902–1969) Remove.

Relation with Ānanda edit

  • Again, the first paragraph does not really belong in this section; only the last sentence has anything to do with our old friend Ānanda. Start again, introduce Ānanda, and then roll into his rivalry with Mahākāśyapa.
  • He gave the example of two of them, who were in the habit of using Buddhist teachings to determine who knew the best, and quarrel as a result. Condense.
  • Karaluvinna hypothesizes Who's Karaluvinna?
  • According to Indologist Oskar von Hinüber, Ānanda's pro-bhikṣunī attitude may well be the reason why there was frequent dispute between Ānanda and Mahākāśyapa, eventually leading Mahākāśyapa to charge Ānanda with several offenses during the First Buddhist Council, and possibly leading to two factions in the saṃgha. Loooong.
  • Scholar of religion Reginald Ray raises the question whether more can be read in the disputes between Ānanda and his bhikṣunī followers on the one hand, and Mahākāśyapa on the other hand. He hypothesizes that Ānanda and the bhikṣunīs may represent established monasticism, and Mahākāśyapa represents forest renunciant movements. This is kind of a weird take by my (limited) understanding, as Ānanda was breaking new ground in letting women join the sangha.
  • (1918–1981) Remove.
  • It shows the chronology and context in which each scholar thought and analyzed. Some scholars further down the article are 19th-century scholars.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 21:57, 8 April 2020 (UTC)Reply

Take 2 edit

  • Mahākāśyapa and Ānanda Needs a link to our old friend Ānanda.
  • Mahākassapa Links to this article and is of inconsistent spelling.
  • and possibly caused two factions in the saṃgha to emerge. Who/what were these factions?

Teacher and mentor edit

  • The images in this section should switch sides.
  • No, the first image should be on the right and the second on the left.
  • capacity to instill faith to lay people in lay people.
  • Religion scholar Shayne Full name?
  • Since they have done much good karma, and since Buddhists believe in an afterlife in which this karma gives fruit, he argued, why not go there straight away? Little much. I'd remove this outright, but maybe it'd be better to just condense this.
  • he was not popular, especially not among bhikṣunīs. The second "not" makes this a double-negative, and is redundant.
  • This caused him to gradually withdraw from teaching, Anālayo argues. A similar monk called Bakkula completely withdrew from teaching for similar reasons, which led him to emphasize ascetic values even more than Mahākāśyapa, to compensate and still be worthy of support from lay people. As this is from the same source, I think this can be condensed without too much hassle.
  • selfish arahants Italicize "arahant".
  • She was regularly targeted for rape her fellow ascetics by her fellow ascetics.
  • coming from monks (the Group of Six) Consider "from a group of monks called the Group of Six".
  • and the bhikṣunī Sthūlanandā Already introduced.
  • poems though Comma needed between these two.
  Done.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 22:19, 9 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
  • At another occasion, Śāriputra consulted him about developing effort in the practice of Buddhist teachings. Reads oddly; feels like "effort" should be plural.

Final respects to the Buddha edit

  • Move the link and explanation of parinirvāṇa to Mahākāśyapa learnt about the Buddha's parinirvāṇa
  • light the funeral pyre I assume the Buddha's funeral pyre.
  • to the Buddha's feet at the Buddha's feet.
  • inserted by authors of monastic discipline in three layers (in the fifth, fourth and third centuries BCE) to Consider "inserted by authors of monastic discipline over the fifth, fourth, and third centuries BCE to [...]"
  • Mahākāśyapa did not need to travel for seven days. He could have travelled from Pāva to Kuśinagara in a few hours, and the delay in lighting the pyre was unnecessary. Condense.
  • Not quite what I had in mind, though I realize much more here could be abbreviated and clarified since the source is the same Bareau. Consider: Bareau reasoned that Mahākāśyapa did not attend the Buddha's cremation in the original text, and that Mahākāśyapa could have taken a route of just a few hours via Pāva to Kuśinagara.
  • the story of the delay and Mahākāśyapa and of Mahākāśyapa

First Buddhist Council and death edit

  • Move the image in "Narratives" to the right, so the text is directly beneath the header.
  • Mahākāśyapa was reportedly hundred twenty years old 120 years old. Numbers larger than nine must be numerals.
  • the number of disciples that had once witnessed the Buddha teaching or that had attained enlightenment were becoming less. Condense.
  • Some monks, among which a monk called Subhadra Consider "among them a monk [...]"
  • and he attempted successfully to stop his fellow disciples from leaving the world. "attempted" and "successfully" should switch places.
  • He then set up the First Buddhist Council,[5][92] to record the Buddhist discourses and details of the monastic discipline and thereby prevent them from becoming corrupted.[95][96] Re-arrange.
  • Consider: To record the Buddha's discourses and preserve monastic discipline,[94][95] Mahākāśyapa set up the First Buddhist Council.[5][91] –♠Vami_IV†♠ 19:08, 11 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
  •   Done.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 07:00, 14 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
  • Mahākāśyapa called upon Ānanda Excellent time to mention that our old friend was famed for his memory, especially considering that Mahākāśyapa was not fond of him.
  • in contrast with the rest of the council, Redundant. Just to note it, I am aware that the removal of this text will necessitate the rewriting of a good chunk of the paragraph.
  • Mahākāśyapa asked of each discourse that Ānanda listed where, when, and to whom it was given,[44][107] and at the end of this, the assembly agreed that Ānanda's memories and recitations were correct,[108] after which the discourse collection (Sanskrit: Sūtra Piṭaka, Pali: Sutta Piṭaka) was considered finalized and closed.[106] Too long. I recommend splitting this into two sentences at and to whom it was given, and axing the following "and".
  • Footnote 8 is entirely redundant.
  • reported about a Axe "about".
  • close disciples Śāriputra and Maudgalyāyana Link Maudgalyāyana
  • In the Early Buddhist Texts, Mahākāśyapa's death is not discussed. This is discussed in post-canonical texts, however. The section title should not have "and death" in it, then.

In post-canonical texts edit

  • As it is a text, the Five Masters of the Dharma should be italicized.
  • Mahākassapa Mahākāśyapa
  • The commentary to the Dīgha Nikāya (fifth century) Consider "to the fifth century Dīgha Nikāya"; is that century AD (CE) or BC(E)?
  •   Fixed. It can never be fifth-century BCE, because that would be during the Buddha's life.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 12:06, 20 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
  • now divide in eight portions. divided
  • by asking the families who had preserved them "asking" meaning "requested"?
  • the whole operation was done in secrecy If this be so, why mention it so late?
  • It is an interpretation of what happened. I relate the story first, then the interpretations of it.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 12:06, 20 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
  • numerous Chinese translations in the Chinese Buddhist Canon Abbreviate.
  • Later, emperor Aśoka would also visit the mountain. This happened when the monk Upagupta led Aśoka to visit the stūpa of the Buddha's disciples. The Emperor visited the mountain with Upagupta?
  • The final paragraph of "Accounts" needs some adjusting. People in Maitreya Buddha's time are much taller than during the time of Gautama Buddha. comes out of nowhere.
  • Try combining People in Maitreya Buddha's time are much taller than during the time of Gautama Buddha. and the next sentence, which directly deals with this size. Like: In one text, Maitreya Buddha's disciples are contemptuous of Mahākāśyapa, as he is much smaller than people of Maitreya Buddha's time.
  • The past-tense language is also odd, as Maitreya lies in the future.
  • "Accounts" in "Awaiting Maitreya", but I can't think of anything that would be better, so I've retracted this bullet-point. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 17:55, 21 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
  • with depictions of Mahākāśyapa Replace "with" with "featuring".
  • influenced by Indo-Greeks and Persians the Indo-Greeks and Persians
  • which Saddhatissa dates to the twelfth century Assuming 12th century AD(CE)
  • in Siamese, Northern Thai and Laotian language. the Siamese, Northern Thai and Laotian languages.
  • There is a bit of WP:SANDWICH going on in "In Chan Buddhism".
  • Move one or two of the images through this section to the left.

Legacy edit

  • However, some Pāli sources indicate that Mahākāśyapa was part of the lineage of the Aṅguttara Nikāya reciters, which is another collection than the Saṃyutta. Reword.

Referencing edit

  • At the moment of writing this, Citations [28], [80], [123], [139], [157], [160], [179], [203], [205], [210] don't point to a reference; theirs are missing. The references "Franke 1908", "Kumamoto 2002", "Swearer 2010", and "Sujato & Brahmali 2015" have no references pointing to them. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 17:32, 15 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
  •   Fixed [28], [80], [123], [139], [157], [160], [179], [203], [205], [210]. Orphanized references are therefore fixed.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 13:11, 20 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
References themselves

GA progress edit

Sorry for being a bit slow in response here, not used to being in semi-quarantaine. Oddly, it makes me less active on Wiki, for some reason.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 23:30, 7 April 2020 (UTC)Reply

Okay, I think I've addressed all the questions.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 07:01, 14 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
Back to you, Vami IV. --Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 13:13, 20 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
@Vami IV: --Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 08:54, 22 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Content that was too much edit

This content was removed from the article because there was not enough space left in the article for it:

  • On a similar note, the robe, which in the early accounts was a rag-robe, is a symbol of rebirth and In this context, the rag-robe was also associated in several Asian cultures with gestation, birth, rebirth, impermanence: rag-robes have historically been associated much with death, and in the early texts, the robe came from a corpse. In a late Pāli account, the same robe is also associated with birth, an association that has also been found in the fieldwork of anthropologist François Bizot, done in Cambodian temples.[1] On a similar note, from the fourteenth century onward, Japanese esoteric kirigami texts describe the robe transmitted from Gautama Buddha to Mahākāśyapa as a symbol of birth and gestation.p=220–221}}South-east Asian scholar Paul Mus (1902–1969) compared the transmittance of the robe of Gautama Buddha to Maitreya Buddha with Indian consecration rituals for kings, in which a king's robe is equated with the placenta, through which rebirth takes place.[2]
  • In one early discourse, he was asked by Pāyāsi, a philosopher with materialist teachings, why virtuous Buddhist monks do not commit suicide. Since they have done much good karma, and since Buddhists believe in an afterlife in which this karma gives fruit, he argued, why not go there straight away? Mahākāśyapa responded that virtuous monks would not do that, because they live with compassion for other people, and do much good by teaching them: their purpose "is gained by life".[3]
  • In some early texts, accounts of Mahākāśyapa and Bhadra's previous lives are told, which illustrate how they vowed to lead celibate lives. In one life, they were making love in a forest and disturbed a pratyekabuddha (Pali: paccekabuddha) who was living and meditating there. When they discovered they had broken his meditative concentration, they felt so ashamed they took a vow together that from then onward, they would be reborn without sexual desire.[4] In another life, in the time of the previous Buddha Padumuttara, he was born in a wealthy family and was called Videha. He saw a disciple of Patumuttara Buddha who was declared to be eminent in ascetic practices, and wanted to be like him in a future life. In subsequent lives, he strove to achieve this aim by doing meritorious deeds, which involved offering robes and cloaks to Buddhas and pratyekabuddhas.[5]


References

  1. ^ Strong 2007, pp. 220–221, 352, 361–362.
  2. ^ Faure 1994, pp. 361–362.
  3. ^ See Harvey (1998, pp. 408–409) and Wiltshire (1983, pp. 130–131). Citation is from the primary source (Pāyāsi Sutta), cited by Harvey.
  4. ^ Clarke 2014, p. 114.
  5. ^ Karaluvinna 2002, pp. 436–437.

Sources edit

  • Clarke, S. (2014), Family Matters in Indian Buddhist Monasticisms, University of Hawai'i Press, ISBN 978-0-8248-3647-4
  • Faure, Bernard (1995), "Quand l'habit fait le moine: The Symbolism of the Kāsāya in Sōtō zen", Cahiers d'Extrême-Asie, 8 (1): 335–369, doi:10.3406/asie.1995.1101

Did you know nomination edit

Latest comment: 3 years ago10 comments3 people in discussion
The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 11:27, 14 May 2020 (UTC)Reply

(
)
 
Wooden sculpture of Mahākāśyapa
  • ... that Mahākāśyapa (pictured), a prominent disciple of the Buddha, was known for his compassion for the poor? Source: "I showcase the socially conscious begging practices of the saint Mahakassapa as seen through the eyes of redactors working in Pali and Sanskrit. This Buddhist saint shows a pattern of taking food from impoverished, unfortunate donors so as to vanquish their bad karma and help them to achieve a better rebirth." (Wilson 2003, p.57)
    • ALT1:... that Mahākāśyapa (pictured), a prominent disciple of the Buddha, has been described as representing the "rough ascetic spirit" of early Buddhism? Source: "L'esprit monastique exigeait d'autres vertus du chef de la Congrégation: une dureté qui punit les transgressions, une rude énergie d'ascète" (Analayo 2016, p. 172, note 75;Przyluski 1926, p. 297)
    • ALT2:... that according to numerous Sanskrit, Chinese and Southeast Asian texts, Mahākāśyapa (pictured) left his body in suspended animation, to see the future Buddha? Source: numerous, see article
    • ALT3:... that the account of Mahākāśyapa (pictured) receiving a flower from the Buddha and simply smiling at it, became important to the identity of Chan Buddhism?

Improved to Good Article status by Farang Rak Tham (talk) and Samahita (talk). Nominated by Farang Rak Tham (talk) at 20:51, 28 April 2020 (UTC).Reply

  •   Substantial article, meeting of GA criteria implicates DYK pass. AGF on foreign language source. I think ALT2 is the most interesting of the bunch. Ping me when you've completed the QPQ and I'll pass this nom. Morgan695 (talk) 23:44, 30 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
  • Thanks, Morgan. Great that you have taken the time to take a look at this huge article. I'll get to QPQ ASAP.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 14:07, 1 May 2020 (UTC)Reply
  •   Hi, I came by to promote this, but the QPQ is not a full review, just a discussion about hook wording. Can you supply another QPQ please? Yoninah (talk) 21:48, 13 May 2020 (UTC)Reply
Yoninah, my review was complete, but the nominator and me were not able to come to an agreement, why is why I asked other editors to get involved.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 11:16, 14 May 2020 (UTC)Reply
  •   Oh, now I see it. Sorry about my confusion. Yoninah (talk) 11:19, 14 May 2020 (UTC)Reply
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