Talk:Lynching of Ephraim Grizzard/Archive 1

Timeline

The article seems to say that the assault on the Bruce daughters occurred on April 28. However, a memorial plaque pictured in the cited Tennessean article shows Henry's date of death as April 4. If he was indeed hanged on that date for this offense, then it seems that the alleged assault must have occurred before April 4. Eleuther (talk) 08:53, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Well, this article was published on Sunday and it says the alleged assault happened on Thursday, which is April 28. So the plaque may be wrong?Zigzig20s (talk) 11:15, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

User:Eleuther: FYI, there is a mistake on the plaque. The alleged crime took place on April 27 (at night) and Henry Grizzard was hanged on April 28 at 10AM. See this.Zigzig20s (talk) 23:12, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Hi, Zigzig20s, good work, thanks for keeping after this. I actually joined newspapers.com myself, but I only got around to doing it a few days ago, and I've only poked around briefly so far. Eleuther (talk) 23:50, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Nashville Banner

User:Parkwells: I don't think we should cite the Nashville Banner unless we are able to double-check the specific articles cited on the church website. The main takeaway from the church article is that the issues of the Nashville Banner with articles about the lynching have gone missing from the public library.Zigzig20s (talk) 21:42, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

The Nashville Banner may not be a reliable source at all. It was published by Edward Bushrod Stahlman, whose brother-in-law was a Klansman. I have removed it.Zigzig20s (talk) 21:51, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

According to Deane's article, which she says draws from several Nashville papers, the Nashville Banner reported the assault on the Bruce girls on April 24 and said that Henry Grizzard was apprehended, confessed and hanged. That would suggest his date of death was April 24. The events related to Ephraim Grizzard happened later. Zigzig, can you get access to this and other Nashville papers for the period of April 24-May 4, 1892, which covered the lynchings of the Grizzards? I'm uneasy that so many references are from sources outside the area. Has anyone checked scholarly accounts of these events? Sometimes they reconcile differing accounts. I'm going to try to check the thesis and other sources that Deane mentions.Parkwells (talk) 22:42, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

I appreciate Zigzig's concerns about a newspaper with potential Klan influence, but Stahlman has not been identified as a Klan member. I don't think you can remove the Nashville Banner as a source for this reason. Many newspapers in the South likely had Klan influence in this period. It seemed to have reported the facts about the date of the alleged assault of the Bruce girls, which is key to the events. What Deane said was that issues of the Banner after the lynching of Ephraim Grizzard (after May 2) were missing from the archives, not that all relevant issues were. Parkwells (talk) 22:42, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

OK, this article clearly states the alleged crime happened on the 27th and Henry Grizzard was hanged on the 28th at 10AM.Zigzig20s (talk) 23:08, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

By the way, there isn't a single match for "Ephraim Grizzard" in Tennessee newspapers until 2017 on Newspapers.com (only in other states).Zigzig20s (talk) 23:22, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Hi, all. Note however that many Tennessee papers from this period are present on newspapers.com only as scans, without backing text, so their text is not searchable. In fact, the (Nashville) Tennessean (known as the Daily American at the time, but still indexed by newspapers.com as the Tennessean) has a very long front page lead article (about four and a half full columns) on May 1 about the lynching of Ephraim. Eleuther (talk) 03:42, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

How did you find it? Did you just go through the Tennessean issues around that date? By the way, there is a long article about Henry Grizzard that we could cite, but this Wikipedia article is about Ephraim--we may have to move it to Lynching of Henry and Ephraim Grizzard if we add more about Henry's hanging. Still, the fact that Ephraim's lynching was watched by a mob of 10,000 in Downtown Nashville makes it more notable IMO.Zigzig20s (talk) 04:01, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I just poked around by date, on the assumption that the leading local paper must have mentioned the event. What I found was more than I expected. Thanks for continuing to poke around, to find the previous article about Henry. I'll leave further editing decisions to you and the other interested parties. I just wanted to point out the existence of the Tennessean article(s). There seems to be a lot of useful material there. Thanks, Eleuther (talk) 04:25, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Woodland Street Bridge

Described as a "Lost Whipple through truss bridge" on Bridgehunter.com. Not a suspension bridge.Parkwells (talk) 01:44, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Triune killings

If there is not anything else reported about this, I think it is extremely unlikely it took place, and would question putting it in the article "as is". Given the atmosphere, the blacks would have been hunted down and lynched in turn. It sounds like the kind of rumor that was frequently printed and had little basis in fact, often adding to the hysteria that precipitated lynchings or riots by whites. Parkwells (talk) 19:38, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

We say "reported" and the article says "Report of a Negro uprising." I think we should keep it in.Zigzig20s (talk) 21:00, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

I understand. The EJI lynching report was based on at least two documented sources for events. WP is a different enterprise.Parkwells (talk) 23:07, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Lynchings in KY

Here's a compilation of lynchings by name and county, http://genealogytrails.com/ken/ky_southernlynchings.html during the period of the most frequent lynchings in KY. The counties in Middle TN can be checked against it and go from there. Sometimes there are other sources online, too, such as journal articles about certain areas or periods. not just the newspapers.Parkwells (talk) 23:07, 6 June 2018 (UTC)