Wikipedia

Talk:Lydia Cornell/Archives/2017

< Talk:Lydia Cornell
Latest comment: 7 years ago by Anna Frodesiak in topic Birthdate

Birthdate

Latest comment: 7 years ago44 comments10 people in discussion

Other sources give her date of birth as 23 July 1953, not 1963. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.168.134.88 (talk) 18:15, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Communication with Lydia Cornell's office informs me that the birth date on IMBD given as 23 July 1953 is incorrect and that the date given here is correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.168.134.88 (talk • contribs) 13:37, 22 September 2008

i attended the university of colorado with her in at least 1975 and believe me she wasn't 13 yrs old! the 1953 date is a lot closer to reality! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.120.22.69 (talk • contribs) 17:21, 30 July 2009

Eh. . . Texas Birth Index says 1953. Which are ya gonna believe? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.10.116.163 (talk) 03:46, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Cornell's sister and family, including some details of a child that died, verify that IMDB is wrong. Her correct birthdate is 1962. The person who keeps changing it to 1953 is involved in something sinister according to attorneys. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AP Birth Records (talk • contribs) 18:53, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Someone want to try to find some reliable sources for her birth date or her attendance at University of Colorado? --Ronz (talk) 16:13, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
The Texas Birth Index gives a birthdate of 7-23-53 http://www.familytreelegends.com/records/txbirths?c=search&first=&last=korniloff&spelling=Exact&11_year=&11_month=0&11_day=0&4=&14=&SubmitSearch.x=46&SubmitSearch.y=13
The 1982 newspaper article said that she won the Little Miss Cotton title in 1963, and mentions her being in a yearbook in 1965-1966.Stembark (talk) 15:50, 17 November 2011 (UTC)Stembark
I'm not sure that's enough to change it, but it might be enough to remove it. --Ronz (talk) 17:31, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20131630,00.html gives age 43 in 2000, making the year 1957 or '56 depending upon the date of the interview. Given that, I've removed the year from the article. --Ronz (talk) 00:22, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Let's get this correct and properly sourced. Do we have reliable sources that she was born Lydia Korniloff in El Paso, Texas, U.S.? If that's her correct birth name and location, then the http://epcounty.com search results might be good enough for our use, but I'll want to check at WP:BLPN first given that this dispute has been going on for years now. --Ronz (talk) 17:30, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

From this previously noted 1982 article: "People here in El Paso remember her as Lydia Korniloff, the dark-haired eldest daughter of Irma Jean and Gregory Korniloff." Considering this was a home-town paper, I'd say they probably have it right about the name and location. According to available records, her sister Kathryn was born in 1959, and her brother Paul was born in 1957, so her birthdate would seem to predate them as she was described as the eldest.Stembark (talk) 20:20, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
Sources please. We're not going to make much progress if we can't get all the necessary information in one place where everyone can examine it easily. --Ronz (talk) 21:34, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Ancestry.com. Texas Birth Index, 1903-1997 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations Inc, 2005. Roll Number: 1953_0009.
    I'm assuming this is just another reference to the birth records mentioned above accessible from http://epcounty.com. --Ronz (talk) 16:42, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Ancestry.com. U.S. Public Records Index, Volume 2 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 2010.
    Anyone have the slightest idea what this might be? --Ronz (talk) 16:42, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
  • However, another source indicates she was born on July 23, 1956. See Ancestry.com. U.S. Public Records Index, Volume 1 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 2010. Original data: Voter Registration Lists, Public Record Filings, Historical Residential Records, and Other Household Database Listings.
    Anyone have the slightest idea what this might be? --Ronz (talk) 16:42, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
"Source Information: Ancestry.com. U.S. Public Records Index, Volume 1 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 2010. Original data: Voter Registration Lists, Public Record Filings, Historical Residential Records, and Other Household Database Listings" = About U.S. Public Records Index, Volume 1: The U.S. Public Records Index is a compilation of various public records spanning all 50 states in the United States from 1950 to 1993. These records are all accessible to the general public by contacting the appropriate agency. Ancestry.com has simply made the process of finding certain public records easier by making them available in an online searchable database. Entries in this index may contain information such as: A person’s first name, middle name or initial and last name; A street or mailing address; A telephone number; A birth date or birth year; An age". Hope this helps.smjwalsh (talk) 14:51, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
I'm not doubting that Ancestry.com has some information, I'm asking what the specific source of the information is in this instance. What specific record is being used and referenced by Ancestry.com? --Ronz (talk) 17:06, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

The registrar from the University of Colorado, Boulder, has officially verified in writing 01/26/12 that Lydia Korniloff was granted a Bachelor's degree in May of 1976. Is this usable here as source? Please advise. Thanks.Triton6563 (talk) 14:18, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I've no idea. I suspect not. I don't see how it matters. We're trying to find confirmation of her birthdate, which seems most likely to be in '53, but may be '56.
When we've gathered as much as we can find, I intend to present it here on this talk page then have it reviewed by others. --Ronz (talk) 17:23, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
A college graduation date goes a long way towards debunking the later birth dates alleged here, and would support a 1953 birth date. A bachelor's degree earned in 1976 would make a 1956 birth year unlikely.
IMO, you have confirmation of the birth date via the ElPaso County birth index discussed. If someone wants to dispute that date, it should be up to him to document it.Triton6563 (talk) 16:18, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
I agree. More importantly, no one is still arguing for the more recent dates. --Ronz (talk) 17:45, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Summary

Oklahoma Daily Leader - born Lydia Korniloff in El Paso, Texas

The Texas Birth Index for Lydia Korniloff - born Thursday, July 23, 1953:

Voter registration record - 1956

  • From Ancestry.com (mentioned above and currently used as a reference - details lacking)

Popular media - born in 1957 or '58:

I threw in a couple additional popular media sources that assume a 1957/58 birth year. I didn't bother with the unreliable sources giving 1962. --Ronz (talk) 16:04, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

All of those ancestry and family tree cites are original research and not what we are here to do - to use them and to publish details from them here imo is a violation of privacy. Use the reports in reliable sources for her dob - or year of birth - I would go with those two popular media cites and add born 1957/58Youreallycan 16:52, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
The multiple references to the Texas Birth Index are primary sources, as is the other Ancestry.com reference. If there is any original research, it is in linking her name and place of birth to the birth record. Given WP:BLPPRIMARY says, "Do not use public records that include personal details, such as date of birth," I'm going to remove it and ask for more help. --Ronz (talk) 19:32, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
As always, I'm willing to abide by WP guidelines. Primary sources can be used in certain circumstances. OR is more problematic. While we cannot use the Texas Birth Record sources in the aricle (unless it is quoted in a RS), it should still determine what can and cannot be put in the article. Given all of the above, popular media should be subject to a hermeneutic of suspicion esp articles written once her PR folk are involved. Articles from her childhood or before she was famous are more likely to be accurate.smjwalsh (talk) 22:59, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
Agreed. We've at least one reliable primary source that gives her birthdate. While BLPPRIMARY tells us not to use this source, that doesn't mean we instead use sources with information that is highly suspect. --Ronz (talk) 23:46, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Bashamandcornell.com provides date of 1962:

It looks like Bashamandcornell.com is the source for all mention of 1962. In cases like this, there's wide consensus to leave the year out. --Ronz (talk) 00:00, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
Both sites are closely connected to the subject. She has been evasive about her actual age for almost 30 years now.smjwalsh (talk) 04:04, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
In the Weekly World News of July 28, 1981 (page 22), Cornell is descibed as a "24-year old actress", and her siblings are described as "a 26-year old brother" and "an older sister, Cathy, 28". This not only represents her birth date as 1957, but shifts the birth order of her parents' children.smjwalsh (talk) 15:03, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Lydia Korniloff appears in an article "Herndon Piano Studios to Present Students in Three Musical Programs", in the El Paso Herald Post (November 2, 1960):16, [1]. smjwalsh (talk) 05:03, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

This should put the matter to rest: Page 4 of El Paso Herald Post (April 1, 1963): "El Paso Areas Miss Cotton Is Happy Nine Year Old Girl" A pretty brown haired miss named Lydia Korniloff is El Paso's happiest little girl today. Lydia was named Little Miss Cotton of El Paso at the contest and style show at Bassett Popular Dry Goods Co auditorium. I WAS sure and happy said Lydia this morning already in a big rush to get ready for school like every other fourth grade youngster on a Monday morning. The new Little Miss Cotton is the daughter of Mr and Mrs Gregory Korni loff of 1217 Baltimore Drive". QED.smjwalsh (talk) 05:13, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Summarizing the 1953 evidence

  • We have a secondary source stating she was born Lydia Korniloff, and no one is disputing this in any way.
  • We have primary sources indicating Lydia Korniloff was born in 1953, which should not be used alone per WP:BLPPRIMARY.
  • We have multiple secondary sources stating she was nine in early 1963 which gives 1953 as her birth year per WP:CALC.
  • We have a secondary source verifying she was born before 1960.

--Ronz (talk) 06:15, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Lydia without a doubt was born in 1953. Why do I know this? Because she was a classmate at Mesita Elementary. Her family moved after 6th grade?? She was Little Miss Cotton around that year. And yea she was the prettiest girl in class. 206.255.73.139 (talk) 15:35, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

2015 BLPN discussion

I've gone ahead and made the sources for her birth year a bit more prominent in light of the latest concerns. --Ronz (talk) 19:02, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
I've tried once again to make them even more prominent. --Ronz (talk) 19:15, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
I've removed the year while we try to understand what's being disputed and why. --Ronz (talk) 23:16, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
I've removed the birth record, as it's use is disputed. As I've repeatedly pointed out, it isn't necessary but fits BLPPRIMARY, tying together information already verified in multiple, reliable, secondary sources that are not in dispute. --Ronz (talk) 00:29, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

2017 discussion

Hi Ronz and others. Where are we on this? I see COI IPs working to get rid of the birthdate because it makes it hard for her to get work. But, is this birthdate reliable? We don't want to have to protect an article with an incorrect dob. I mean, the last sentence above ends with "I suspect". Could everyone be citing each other in these sources? Could the original source be Wikipedia and it's gone round in circles? The current sources look dubious, like someone just grabbed various birthdates from anywhere for an "On This Day" bit. Thoughts? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 00:02, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

We have her birth record, multiple sources confirming her age of 9 in 1963, another source that confirms she was born before 1960, and the additional sources above. It's well sourced. --Ronz (talk) 00:30, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
Fair enough, my friend. If the IPs keep doing this, then I will protect the page. Thank you kindly. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 00:33, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
Ping Ronz: FYI [2]. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 00:48, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Lydia_Cornell/Archives/2017&oldid=1049844464"