Talk:Lughnasadh/Archive 1

Archive 1

Sun

Let's try to work it out with good reason. Since Imbolc on the northern hemisphere coincides with Lughnasadh on the southern, and since Imbolc marks the middle between winter solstice and the first day of Spring Lughnasadh on the southern hemisphere is "the opposite" of Imbolc, which means Lughnasadh marks the middle between summer solstice and the first day of fall. These are the days when the sun gradually loses power and the days become shorter. Is this right and does it help? Still we need someone who knows. Limbonic 20:31, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Holiday in Switzerland

I find the sentence about the holiday in Switzerland to be confusing and in need of clarification:

"1 August as the national holiday of Switzerland, ancient homeland of the Iron Age Helvetii, with its traditional bonfires might trace to this ancient Celtic tradition."

• Should it say "1 August is the national holiday of Switzerland..."?

• Maybe add some additional information, such as:

"On 1 August, the national holiday of Switzerland, it is traditional to celebrate with bonfires. This practice may trace back to the Lughnasadh celebrations of the Helvetii, Celtic people of the Iron Age who lived in what is now Switzerland."

This is how I read the sentence, but I am not familiar with Swiss culture and not sure if my interpretation of the above sentence is correct.

-Massjit 21:01, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

"Sabbats" Template

I have removed the "Sabbats" box that was recently placed at the top of this article. I feel it is misleading in that it re-instates the POV that Lunasa is primarily a Wiccan or Neopagan thing. We have worked hard to make this and the other Gaelic fire festivals more historically accurate, and more reflective of the spectrum of people who observe the festival. We have a Gaelic festivals nav box at the bottom, and links in the body to the Wiccan "wheel of the year"; we do not need an additional nav box for the Wiccan sabbats. --Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 20:47, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Merge with Lammas?

Shouldn't this article be merged with the Lammas article? They are closely related and everywhere else I have ever read about them they are mentioned together. Pschroeter 18:29, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Lammas is Anglo-Saxon in origin and Lughnasadh is Celtic in origin. Just because modern pagans have merged the two into one celebration does not mean they are equivalent for all time. Jacqui^★ 14:03, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Keep them separate. -- nae'blis 17:51, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Thought it might be interesting that a letter from my Irish great-etc. grandfather, written in 1849, mentions having left Belfast to sail to Philadelphia "just after Lammas." He was Church of England. Depjohnson 16:51, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Opening statement re the date-thereof

In the opening, I pulled "celebrated... or at the time of the ripening of the local berry crop, or on the full moon nearest the midpoint between the summer solstice and autumnal equinox." in that this material does not really belong in the opening and the full-moon statement is not supported in the lore. It may be the custom of some modern Neopagan (Wiccan, Druid or CR) tradition, but is not supported in demonstably ancient traditions. earrach July 19, 2007

The berry thing is sourced from Danaher. Don't recall right off hand the source on the full moon thing, but it's not a recent invention. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 16:01, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

The berry association (bilberies) is a folk custom from the Christian period covered by Maire O'Neill as well I believe. My concern is using the "full-moon" as a mode of fixing fire festival dates. I am not aware of anything but modern speculation on such a factor (and it seems ill-advised at that, if there's nothing in the ancient record about full-moons but we do have have -two- 2000 year old citations -Pliny and Tacitus- for the folks north and west of the Alps, now being classed "celtic", as having fixed their sacred cycles by the First Quarter Moon, not the Full...). earrach July 20, 2007

"Celtic Reconstructionists" are not the only non-Wiccans...

The Recon section of the article looks a little heavy-handed, almost like an advertisement for their way of doing things. A section on Wiccan ways here is understandable but such a large footprint here by the Recons is a bit much. Sorta like an article about Christianity featuring only Roman Catholic (Wicca) and Jehova's Witnesses (C.Recon) perspective sections. earrach July 19, 2007

Who or what were you thinking of adding? - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 16:01, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

-Not really to add anything - I was hoping we'd trim it down -the article's about Lughnassadh, not an advert for CR... Perhaps what would suffice would be a hyperlink to an explanation of Celtic Reconstructionism on another page. earrach July 20, 2007

Well, the Neopagan section is about modern practice. I don't think it's an "advert" for any of the traditions covered. I'd be more inclined to add more historical content and modern secular material than to cut the sections on modern practices. When bloodofox started overhauling this, the entire article was almost thoroughly about Wicca. What we have now is well sourced. If we cut things, I suspect they'll just get added back in a less accurate manner, as tends to happen as the festival day approaches. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 16:47, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Lugunassatis?

"In Gaulish, the festival was called Lugunassatis." Where? I've never seen any inscription that mentions any such festival. It looks like a reconstructed form borrowing from Irish, but it's not attested to in any Gaulish inscription or classical reference.MaryJones 01:04, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm a bit uncomfortable with that phrasing, as well. I'm pretty sure that's a reconstructed form. Do we know for certain that the Gauls celebrated a festival at that time? If so, we could say there was a festival, but we don't know what name they used. If we aren't certain they had a festival at that time, we should just cut the Gaulish reference, imho. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 01:21, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

OK, I looked around. Apparently it is a reconstructed form, so at the very least we need to asterisk it. I don't know if there's been scholarly publication of that form. In popular publications, Tadgh MacCrossan used it in The Sacred Cauldron, and Gaulish Reconstructionists seemed to have picked it up from there. Alexei Kondratiev may have also used it in The Apple Branch. I'll see what else I can dig up... - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 01:35, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup

OK, this needs a lot of work. I'm going to start the process that some of us have been doing with the other Gaelic festivals, using the changes on Samhain as a model. --Kathryn NicDhàna 05:58, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

In Castile (Spain), was a prerroman God, in many villages is a festival summer like Cabezon de Pisuerga (Valladolid —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.57.207.148 (talk) 23:32, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Meaning

What does Lughnasadh mean? Remigiu (talk) 15:39, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

"Festival of Lugh" - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 03:51, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Future Date

Just a quickie, when is it in 2009? Where do you find this out? Thanks, Rafe 76.171.210.88 (talk) 09:10, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Out of everything else ...

I've listened to the song Rosemary Faire by Áine Minogue and it sounds amazingly like Simon & Garfunkel's hit Scarborough Fair. It has both the same tone (they sound exactly the same) and many lyrics match up. The major differences are in the beginning verses of both, where in the Simon & Garfunkel hit, it would say:

Are you going to Scarborough Fair · Parsley, sage, rosemary, and thyme · Remember me to one who lives there (?) · She once was a true love of mine

... while in the version sung by Áine Minogue and Alasdair Halliday, it says:

We may go down to Rosemary Faire · Every rose grows merry and fine · And pick me out then the finest girl there · And I will make her a true lover of mine

It would be nice if, on the Scarborough Fair article, a reference to its similarity with this song, Rosemary Faire, would've been mentioned. Or, unless I'm just blind, please tell me. If you have any replies, just reply, and it would also be helpful if you tell me on my talk page. Thanks. IlStudioso 02:07, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

NPOV concerns and CR dominance of article

This article is about a holiday celebrated over a large span of time by a variety of different people in a variety of different ways. No one perspective (even if it is "historically accurate" reconstructionist) has the right to assert that their perspectives are the most valid or take primacy over others. Nor does any one perspective have the right to use this article as a place to promote their own beliefs while deriding those of others. Nor should material from valid and reliable sources be eliminated simply because of their association with a particular perspective. However, all of these things seem to be happening on this page. Autumnalmonk (talk) 01:24, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

The article is about the Gaelic cultural festival, both historically and currently. It has sections on the modern usage/celebrations of modern Neopagans, Celtic Reconstructionists, and Wiccans; I believe this is adequate. Attempting to refocus it to give essentially equal prominence to Wiccan beliefs is both misleading and inaccurate. Wiccan and CR views of the Gaelic festival should more appropriately be explicated more fully in their respective articles and offshoots (the Wiccan Wheel of the Year article for example.) Pigman☿/talk 04:35, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

This is not a strictly Gaelic festival and you have no authority to limit it so. Lughnasadh is simply the Gaelic name for a widely observed Celtic festival, which is shown in the article itself by the fact that it was celebrated historically by Gauls and the Helvetii of west-central Europe (who were certainly not Gaelic!). In terms of the number of people currently celebrating Lughnasadh, the Wiccans would far outnumber CRs and ethnic/secular celebrants combined so I don't think providing equal representation for Wiccans in the article is misleading and inaccurate at all. Your suggestion that all of the festivals comprising the Wheel of the Year should be fully explicated in that single article is ridiculous and suggests that you are attempting to remove Wiccan viewpoint representation on Wikipedia to the absolute minimum. Autumnalmonk (talk) 21:07, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

No, Autumnal. This is about the Gaelic festival. Modern celebrations are noted further down. I suggest you back up and look at what you're saying. You're trying to turn this, and other articles, into a piece on Wicca. As for "CR bias"... Perhaps it's only via CR types that you've encountered Gaelic cultural information. That's unfortunate, but don't take it out on the articles. You can write about Wicca all you want in Wiccan articles. This is not one of those places. Slàn, - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 00:23, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

PS - Also, I think in cases of conflict the clear choice is with alphabetical order. I don't see how that's even remotely controversial. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 00:27, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Etymology section

I'm thinking of re-adding this right before the Neopagan section, or at least as much of is as can be sourced. The bits in the Gaelics are easy enough to source to dictionaries I have at hand. But I don't recall where the reconstructed form of the Gaulish came from. Thoughts? - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 00:48, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Trial marriages?

The article currently contains this sentence: "Among the Irish it was a favored time for handfastings - trial marriages that would generally last a year and a day, with the option of ending the contract before the new year, or later formalizing it as a more permanent marriage."

However, the handfasting article states that this is a myth:

In the 18th century, well after the term handfasting had passed out of usage, there arose a popular myth that it referred to a sort of "trial marriage". A.E. Anton, in Handfasting' in Scotland (1958) finds that the first reference to such a "trial marriage" is by Thomas Pennant in his 1790 Tour in Scotland. This report had been taken at face value throughout the 19th century, and was perpetuated e.g. in Walter Scott's 1820 novel The Monastery.

One of these articles is incorrect, but I don't know which. Can someone more knowledgeable than me please resolve this inconsistency? Wikipedia shouldn't be perpetuating myths.--Pat Berry (talk) 10:11, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

This is the source given on the Taillten Fair article: <ref>O'Donovan, J., O'Curry, E., Hancock, W. N., O'Mahony, T., Richey, A. G., Hennessy, W. M., & Atkinson, R. (eds.) (2000). ''Ancient laws of Ireland, published under direction of the Commissioners for Publishing the Ancient Laws and Institutes of Ireland.'' Buffalo, New York: W.S. Hein. ISBN 1-57588-572-7. (Originally published: Dublin: A. Thom, 1865-1901. Alternatively known as ''Hiberniae leges et institutiones antiquae''.)</ref> So, I think we're looking at a regional variation? - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 02:29, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

There are more general problems with Lugnasad. Handfasting begain at Beltaine not Lughnasad as quoted in Dr Binchy's paper "Fair of Tailtiu and Feast of Tara" Eriu 18 p.124. Also there is no fair at Lughnasad, "the 'fair' of Oristown was held on May 1st (Belltaine) in 1678, but on May 13th and Oct. 11th, once as late as Oct. 14th, in the eighteenth century" from the Folklore journalVolume 31: "The Marriages of the Gods at the Sanctuary of Tailltiu" @ http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Folklore_(journal)/Volume_31/The_Marriages_of_the_Gods_at_the_Sanctuary_of_Tailltiu) 38.109.155.100 (talk) 19:24, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Although I'd be glad to find any further citations in support of marriages at Lughnasad, as soon as I get a chance I can provide a reference from Maire Mac Neill re Lunasa being considered unlucky for weddings in Ireland -and- another reference from JG Campbell on Beltaine and the May being considered unlucky for marriages in Scotland (hence the popularity of June?). Campbell gives the reasoning for this being that to do so would put the marriage "astride the seasons", having been "declared in one season and married in another". This implies or reinforces the folk-notion of Beltaine being a significant divisor of the seasons as still being strong well into the 19th century. I'm not sure but Lughnasad may also figure as the divisor of summer into autumn and invoke the same logic. Then again, communities were just too busy (and exhausted) for weddings during high-harvest. Seems there are plenty of contrary references to be found in Celtic Studies, if not the folk record itself. Earrach (talk) 20:31, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

The 8th century law tracts has marriages being at Beltaine per Dr Binchy comment on Westropp work on early Irish law. (see “Fair of Tailtiu and Feast of Tara” by Dr Binchy, Eriu XVIII) The law tract I found is "One-ninth of his (the man's) increase, and of his corn, and of his bacon is due to the woman if she be a great worker; she has a sack every month she is with him to the end of a year, i.e. to the next May-days, for this is mostly the time in which they make their separation." found in "Cáin Lánamna 'The Law of Couples' is an Old Irish law tract dated to the beginning of the eighth century CE which is part of the Senchas Már tradition of legal texts. The only continuous copy of the tract is found in the Trinity College, Dublin MS H.2.15A in a section dated to the beginning of the fourteenth century." http://books.google.com/books?id=aaREAAAAcAAJ&dq=inauthor%3A%22Ireland.+Commissioners+for+Publishing+the+Ancient+Laws+and+Institutes+of+Ireland%22&q=hand#v=onepage&q=beltaine&f=false Muireagain (talk) 12:46, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

in February?

I think we need more than just a bald statement in the definition paragraph that an August festival from the British Isles is celebrated "in February in the southern hemisphere"? Is this in fact an established tradition by emigrants from Britain and Ireland, or is it simply something some modern people have chosen to do - while others might choose to keep the August date. Either way it seems too out-of-the-way a detail to belong in the first paragraph, and it also seems to imply a sort of global uniformity of practice that does not exist.

Distingué Traces (talk) 19:48, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Agree, it should be removed altogether. Hohenloh ⁺ 10:20, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Removed. Mannanan51 (talk) 04:50, 4 August 2012 (UTC)mannanan51

Modern Lughnasadh customs

I reverted a recent edit made to the Modern Lughnasadh customs section, partly because the addition was unsourced but also because it seemed misleading and inaccurate to me ("In modern paganism and wicca, Lughnasadh (or Lammas) is the first of the three Pagan autumn harvest festivals, the other two being the autumnal equinox (or Mabon) and Samhain. "). I just thought I should give a more detailed explanation of why I reverted it, seeing as it's that time of year again and this is probably not the last time edits are going to be made in the next few weeks. The main problem is that the sentence lumped together Lammas and Lughnasadh as a generic Pagan and/or Wiccan festival. Aside from the fact that there are at least a few Pagan religions who don't observe either festival at all, Lammas and Lughnasadh come from two different cultural backgrounds and this article is about the Gaelic festival specifically so that should be reflected in any mention of Modern Pagan celebrations. If there is to be a section on modern Pagan observances in the article it should be focused on the kind of Pagans who observe Lughnasadh, as reflected in the other articles dealing with the other Gaelic festivals, Imbolc, Beltane and Samhain. That would be more consistent. Ririgidi (talk) 13:53, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Lughnasadh or Lughnasa?

Should the title be Lughnasadh or Lughnasa? Why? —  AjaxSmack  14:01, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

I've always known it as, and seen it spelled as, Lúnasa. That's also what's on my calendar in the kitchen, and indeed on every other Irish calendar I've seen. 89.101.41.216 (talk) 20:13, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

The article should be re-named Lughnasa. To explain why, I quote James MacKillop's Myths and Legends of the Celts: "We prefer the unreformed Modern Irish spelling Lughnasa for the day because it was used in Máire MacNeill's landmark 700-page study The Feast of Lughnasa (1962) ... MacNeill's spelling also appears in the title of Brian Friel's admired drama Dancing at Lughnasa (1990), which draws thematically on festival traditions. The reformed Modern Irish spelling is Lúnasa, which is now more likely to denote the month of August".

Lughnasa also seems to be the more common spelling. For example, the article notes that some towns in Ireland hav recently begun holding yearly Lughnasa fairs or festivals, and most of them use that spelling.

If there are no objections, I'll request that the article be re-named. ~Asarlaí 17:47, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

When was Lughnasadh?

Looking at the chronology of texts related to Lughansad, I find:

9th century or earlier: Tochmarc Emire, from Rawlinson B.512, has no mention of Lughnasad, only Brón Trogin. Miniugud version of LGE says that Oengus (who I assume lived in 9th century, if the author of Felire Oengusso) associated Lughnasad with nasad Beóain Mellláin. In Felire Oengusso, nasad Beóain Mellláin is on October 26th. (Rendition 3 would change the day of Lughanasad to Samain.)

10th century Sanas Cormaic and Dúil Dromma Cetta, say that Lughansad was oenach held at the start of fogmar. However Sanas Cormaic glosses that fogmar is the last month of the season of fogmar, i.e. October. Which month do the glossaries mean, August or October? The poem: Lugnassad luaid // a hada cecha bliadna // ceinmara fromad cech toraid // co m-blaid biad lusraid // la Lugnasaid. (Harl. 5280 fo. 35 b,2) and gloss “lá aipchi na n-uili thorad immarach .i. la Lughnasad”, says that all fruit has ripen by Lughnasad. Hence ruling out August as the time for Lugnasad. For all fruit to be ripe it must be October.

11th century The Lebor na h-Uidre version of Tochmarc Emire, includes the clarification of Lughnasad, "prón trogein .i. lugnusad", to the line previous found in the Rawlinson B.512 version. While in an additional passage add after Rawlinson B.512 version there is continued use of brón trogain, as opposed to using Lughansad.

12th century Acallam na Senórach twice tells that the month of trogain “is now called Lugnasadh”. I.e., “mis trogain, risa raiter [or ráidhter] in lugnassadh”.

The chronology suggest to me that Lughnasad has been moved from October to August by the 11th century.

Further, the Lebor na h-Uidre version of Tochmarc Emire also tells that the great feast of Taillne happen after the second battle of Moytura, i.e. Samain. The feast was a banrigi and hence knoll mention in Tochmarc Emire is probably the same mentioned in San Cormaic Y 386: "Coibchi .i. cendach, ut dicitur Tulach na coibche a .i. n-Aonach Tailten". Alternatively O'Donovan "heard that the Telltown marriages were celebrated in the Luganeany hollow in Pagan times;... ." However neither banrigi in Tochmarc Emire at Samain, nor do the opinions of Dr Binchy and Westropp: (who identified marriages with Beltaine and the local fairs held in May and November), support this association. It seems that Lughanasad association with August, which first appears in the dinnshenchas of Tailtu (14th century?), is a mistake?

Again this would support the idea that Lughnasad has moved.

(I also do not understand the association of Lughnasad with Luglas-nad.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.1.234.165 (talk) 13:20, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

The climate is not the same throughout all of Ireland, and even less so throughout all the Gaelic areas. When we have festivals dated by phenomena such as ripenening of fruit, or flowering of plants, or first frost, the date can vary widely, depending on where you live. What is more likely is that a fixed calendar date is much more recent, as opposed to gauging it by natural and astronomical phenomena (such as the megalith alignments). - CorbieV^☊☼ 17:45, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

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When is Lughnasadh?

The infobox says August 1, but the introduction says "over time the celebrations shifted to the Sundays nearest this date" (this is unfortunately not cited and is not mentioned in the article body). Thanks. —howcheng {chat} 18:05, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Howcheng, I've added some information which hopefully will clear things up. Lughnasa has always been deemed to be the 1st of August, but in recent centuries many of the celebrations shifted to the nearest Sundays for handiness sake. It's much like how Halloween is always deemed to be the 31st of October, but many of the celebrations might be held during the nearest weekends. ~Asarlaí 19:23, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Modern construct of Lughnasadh

Lughnasadh seems like a modern construct put forth by Máire MacNeill. I don't see any early Irish sources mentioning the existence of the festival even if it makes sense for it to exist because of the dating of the 3 other festivals of Bealtaine, Samhain and Imbolc. There is evidence of the Tailteann games but there's no evidence of Reek Sunday having pre-Christian origins. Christian pilgrames are not evidence of Lughnasadh being celebrated in modern times and the Tailteann games are not evidence of it being celebrated in ancient times. The closest thing to the festival of Lughnasadh is the Tailteann games but there is no reason for this article to exist aswell. There's no proof it was named after the god Lugh but instead the month of August was named after him. Saying the festival of Lughnasadh corresponds to the English Lammas is like saying one's birthday corresponds to another birthday because they're on the same day. There's no evidence of a link between Lughnasadh and Lammas. There's also zero evidence of the puck fair having it's origins in the festival of Lughnasadh as it's origins are extremely unknown.92.51.249.119 (talk) 22:15, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Deletion of this article

The festival of Lughnasadh never existed historically. The celebrations listed with it are not documented. 92.51.249.119 (talk) 22:37, 7 February 2024 (UTC)