Talk:Lucas, Archbishop of Esztergom

GOCE copyedit request

• Lucas came from a potential wealthy family [...] Is his family not wealthy? Are the sources unclear?
  • Yes, his origin is unknown, but he studied at Paris and his brother was an influential baron (i.e. came from a wealthy aristocrat family), but their parentage or kindred is unknown.
    •  Done. Edited sentence to reflect that.
• [...] Lucas had a significant impact on the country's foreign policy and diplomatic process. Edited; was formally "diplomacy". May find a better word for it later.
  • Thank you. Unfortunately, my wording is often cumbersome.
    •  Done. Pluralised "processes" while I was at it.
• Lucas was a staunch supporter of Stephen III during the dynastic struggles [...] Which dynasty is this? The Árpád dynasty?
  • Yes. Stephen III struggled with his usurper uncles for the Hungarian throne from 1162 to 1163.
    •  Done. Mentioned the dynasty by name and linked to it.
• [...] following Géza II's death, where the king's reign was contested by his two uncles. Sentence is a little ambiguous; I've currently rephrased it to say that Stephen III was being contested by his two uncles Ladislaus II and Stephen IV. Correct?
  • Yes, thank you.
    •  Done. Replaced "king" with "Stephen III."
• Lucas had a fluctuating relationship with Stephen's brother and successor Béla III. "Fluctuating" generally isn't used in this respect. I think "ambivalent" may fit better?
  • Yes, thank you.
    •  Done. Made the switch.
• He served as ispán [...] Is ispán exclusive to an area or can more than one be in one area?
  • Ispán (Latin: comes) was an administrative head of a county or "ispánate" (smaller self-administered districts within counties), appointed by the king. In most cases, only one ispán was commissioned to govern a county, but later, since the 15th century, there were co-ispáns (two or, rarely, three), who held their offices in a county, simultaneously. But, during the time of Lucas, each county was administered by one ispán.
    •  Done. Thanks for the historical info on Apa.

• Historian Ubul Kállay rejected the aforementioned proposals and argued Apa and Lucas were the sons of Alexius, a Ban of Slavonia during the reign of Stephen II of Hungary. Therefore, Kállay referred to Lucas with "Bánfi" as his surname in an anachronistic way, who was a member of the Gutkeled clan and brother of Martin Gutkeled, who erected the Benedictine abbey of Csatár. Slightly edited by me already. Are you saying that Alexius was the brother of Martin Gutkeled?
  • Yes, thank you. This was a proposal of Kállay, not universally accepted by scholars.
    •  Done. Re-organised a little but should be clarified.
• He was one of the first Hungarians who attended a foreign universitas [...] Emphasis added. Is this different from a normal university?
  • No, we can translate it, of course.
    •  Done. Switched to its English counterpart.
• He acquired a high degree in church law [...] Does it mention specifically which degree he earned?
  • Unfortunately, no.
    •  Done. Moved a word around but left the sentence as is otherwise.
• As a student, Lucas established productive relationships with English scholars and clerics like John of Salisbury and Map. Slightly edited. Didn't the previous paragraph mention that Lucas and Map may not have crossed paths at all at the university?
  • Yes, my mistake.
    •  Done. Removed the mention of Walter Map in that sentence.
• He was still referred to as bishop-elect throughout in 1156 until March 1157 when he was presented as bishop during his act as witness in that document [...] Which document are we talking about?
  • A royal charter issued in March 1157 (see below, in the next sentence). This is the first time, when Lucas was styled as simply "bishop" (and not bishop-elect), i.e. his election was confirmed by the pope by that time.
    •  Done. Switched the clauses around.
• when Gervasius, Bishop of Győr interceded with Géza II to grant the collection right of salt duties to the archdiocese at Nána and Kakat (present-day Štúrovo, Slovakia) [...] What is the "collection right of salt duties"?
  • In this document, the Archidocese of Esztergom was granted the right to collect the salt duties [for themselves] in these villages, instead of a royal official, who had transferred this revenue to the central treasury before that.
    •  Done. Basically the Church could collect salt instead of royal envoys?
• After their failed rebellion, Géza II's two brothers, Ladislaus and Stephen sought refuge in the Byzantine Empire by 1160, where they found shelter in the court of Emperor Manuel I Komnenos at Constantinople. This is mentioned later on in the article, but how is this directly to Lucas' life?
  • I think this sentence explains how Byzantium became involved in the conflict for the upcoming years.
    •  Done. Left as is.
• Barbarossa forced the Italian towns to surrender in September 1158. However, Milan and Crema rose up in open rebellion against the emperor's rule after the Diet of Roncaglia ordered the restoration of imperial rights. Géza II sent his envoys to Barbarossa's camp and promised to dispatch further reinforcements against the rebellious towns. Does this contextualise the schism mentioned right afterwards?
  • Yes. It explains that Géza was initially a supporter of Emperor Frederick against the Pope.
    •  Done. On second read provides enough evidence. Edited wording a little.
• Several historians – including Gyula Pauler and József Gerics – accept the letter's contents and considered Lucas' significant role, referring to the pro-Barbarossa envoy, Bishop Daniel of Prague who first negotiated with Lucas in 1161 at Easter before his official meeting with Géza II. Ambiguous pronoun. Who met with Géza II? Lucas?
  • Bishop Daniel, the envoy of Frederick.
    •  Done. Clarified.
• 18th-century historian Miklós Schmitth notes that Lucas successfully recovered the stolen gems of the late Martyrius from the thief Jordanus with his vigorous action immediately after being elected as archbishop. What does "vigorous action" refer to?
  • This term may be omitted.
    •  Done. Omitted.
• In these efforts, Lucas even theoretically confronted with Pope Alexander What does this mean? Did he challenge Pope Alexander?
  • No, but their political interests collided with each other in this period. Because of his struggle with Emperor Frederick over the supreme power, Pope Alexander maintained a good relationship with the Byzantine Empire.
    •  Done. Changed wording a little.
• Stephen III could not take advantage of his uncle's death because Ladislaus II was succeeded by his younger brother, Stephen IV. Edited. To confirm, Stephen IV is Ladislaus II's younger brother.
  • Thank you.
    •  Done. Reordered wording for clarity.
• Stephen IV was captured, but his nephew released him, at Lucas's advice, on the condition that he never return. Where was he never to return? Hungary?
  • Yes.
    •  Done. Clarified.
• After a peace treaty with Emperor Manuel, the king agreed to send his younger brother, Béla, to Constantinople and to allow the Byzantines to seize Béla's duchy, which included Croatia, Dalmatia and Sirmium. Bolded for emphasis. Is "king" referring to Stephen IV?
  • Stephen III.
    •  Done. Thank you for the clarification.
• Fluctuate relationship with Béla III. See above.
  • Thanks.
    •  Done. Word switched.
• Several educated and skilled members of its staff left the royal court to follow Lucas, which can be traced by the drastic reduction in the number of royal degrees until 1181. Emphasis added. Is it supposed to be "decree"?
  • Yes, my typo.
    •  Done. Word switched.
• When he returned to Hungary, his ecclesiastical career ascended quickly into the highest dignities. I believe "dignities" is being used in the sense of "position". Would I assume correctly?
  • Yes. Those positions (secular and prelates) were called "dignitas" in medieval Latin used in the Kingdom of Hungary.
    •  Tentatively done. Replaced "dignities" with "ranks" for the time being, but may revert it or use another word in my next revision.
      • "Rank" is OK, but I think dignity (or also office or position) is also appropriate here. But, we can keep "rank" too.
        •  Done. Switched back to "dignities" because "rank" didn't have the right feel to it.
• Nándor Knauz called him "Lucas Bánffy de Alsó Lindva de genere Guthkeled" in his work, the Monumenta ecclesiae Strigoniensis (1874), which proposal, besides anachronism, is bleeding from several wounds, as, instead of the Bánffys de Alsólendva, the Felsőlendvais were the ones, who originated from the gens Gutkeled (and there is no such "Bánffy de Felsőlendva" kinship), while both families adopted their surname only in the 14th century, after their illustrious members, Nicholas Hahót and Nicholas Gutkeled, respectively, who bore the title of ban. This is a really long run-on sentence and I would appreciate some clarification. Why is there talk about anachronisms and "bleeding from several wounds"?
  • Until the mid-14th century, there were no surnames in Hungary, the noblemen came from extended kindreds of clans (gens or "genus"). These kindreds began to decay by the 14th centuries, which resulted the formation of various noble families, who named themselves (mostly) after the centre of their landholdings (for instance, Thomas Szécsényi means "Thomas of Szécsény"). Consequently, the name "Lucas Bánffy" (or Bánfi) is anachronism, in addition, it is faulty, because there was no such "Bánffy de Alsólendva de genere Guthkeled" (lit. Bánffy of Alsólendva from the clan Gutkeled) family: the Bánffy de Alsólendva (or, archaically Alsó Lindva) family came from the Hahót kindred. Knauz mixed two families (there was no extensive geneaological research at that time).
    •  Tentatively done. I turned that sentence into smaller sentences and rearranged some of the ordering. How does this look?
    • Nándor Knauz called him "Lucas Bánffy de Alsó Lindva de genere Guthkeled" in his work, the Monumenta ecclesiae Strigoniensis (1874), whose proposal is faulty. Aside from surnames being anachronisms for the time, the Felsőlendvais were the ones who originated from the gens Gutkeled (and there is no such "Bánffy de Felsőlendva" kinship) instead of the Bánffys de Alsólendva. Both families adopted their surname in the 14th century after their distinguished members, Nicholas Gutkeled and Nicholas Hahót respectively, bore the title of ban.
      • It's OK to me.
        •  Done. Will keep it as such.
• In the following decades, both of them became acquainted with Thomas Becket. Who's the both of them? Before I edited the sentence before it could have been two out of these three: Lucas, Walter Map, and/or John of Salisbury.
  • John of Salisbury and Walter Map.
    •  Done. Explicitly mentioned them.
• As Map narrated in his anecdote with the Hungarian archbishop, Hugh of le Mans, Bishop of Acre informed him about Lucas' later encounters with the warring Árpád dynasty of Hungary, which Becket learned via his colleague. Is the "Hungarian archbishop" referring to Lucas? Why is Becket knowing important?
  • Yes, he is Lucas. Later, the article covers that there were similarities in the methods of Lucas and Becket in their struggle against the royal power. Lucas helped to spread Becket's cult in Europe, later.
    •  Partly done. Disambiguated "Hungarian archbishop" to Lucas. Who's Becket's colleague again? Map?
      • Yes, Walter Map.
        •  Done. Clarified.
• His notary Becen remained loyal to him, and only three royal charters were preserved between 1166 and 1169, representing the temporary decline of literacy. Was literacy (that is, reading ability) in Hungary tied to charters and other documents issued by the Church?
  • Yes. Beside the church employees (whose loyalty was thus called into question at a time of possible conflict between the archbishop of Esztergom and the Hungarian monarch), the royal court had no separate professional, educated and literate staff during that time.
    •  Tentatively done. When you say "church employees," is there a rank that they hold? Clergy? The revised sentence reads as such now:
    • His notary Becen remained loyal to him, and only three royal charters were preserved between 1166 and 1169; as only church employees were the only ones able to read and write, the lower number of charters drafted represented the temporary decline of literacy.
      • Simply clergymen (canons, vicars etc.) who where confidants of the archbishop and also active in the chancellery. The above sentence is OK to me.
        •  Done. Kept as such.

I'll be looking forward to your answers! --Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝) 06:12, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

• • Thank you very much for your diligent and precise work. To the best of my ability, I tried to answer your above questions. --Norden1990 (talk) 12:51, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

@Norden1990: Thanks for your answers. Many of my questions have been answered and have been incorporated into the second revision. I still have a few more that would like to be reviewed or have more clarification (plus one that I forgot to mention last time). I'll hold off on my next revision until those are answered. --Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝) 20:06, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

@Tenryuu:, Thank you for your efforts, see my answers above. --Norden1990 (talk) 21:46, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

@Norden1990: I just finished my third revision and consider the copyedit request complete. I'll add a template to this talk page and amend the one on your talk page. Let me know if you need anything else! --Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝) 05:08, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

It was an excellent and fast work, I really thank you. --Norden1990 (talk) 09:29, 12 April 2020 (UTC)