Talk:Londonderry, New Hampshire

Untitled

Good additional information. First paragraph has a couple of long, complicated sentences though. Recommend we edit those a bit. Isoxyl 20:53, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Moose Hill School

I added Moose Hill School which is Pre-K and K. Does anyone know if the three elementary schools still do Kindergarten now, or are they all at Moose Hill? Isoxyl 20:59, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Moose Hill school is not Pre-K. Only their SPED program is pre-K which is the Londonderry Early Education Program or simply LEEP. The three elementary schools NEVER had kindergarten. Londonderry started doing K schools just a few years ago and I can't remember the year funny thing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.223.171.123 (talk) 00:55, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

The evicted resident

I never heard about this Londonderry resident getting evicted. Now someone wants to be PC and cover this story up. The article with that man is in the verge of getting deleted Why is that? Why can we tell some truth? I never heard of this story and I live in Londonderry. If we delete this article about this man, and cover up this story and make it fragmented, do we need to get the "Lies my Teacher Told Me - Everything your Textbook Got Wrong" author to explain about cover ups and how it will corrupt kids (and adults) minds of history in the future?

I would like to request that, that article not get removed and the link from this article of that person gets linked back.

Politcally Correctness - covers up the truth! Let's just tell the truth and who cares of that person gets offended - its the truth!

Enough of that! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.223.171.123 (talk) 00:55, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

A response

I nominated the Robert Saulnier page for removal, because it is non-notable. Wiki has rules about such things, and normally when someone creates a page like that, which is non-neutral and biased, it is because that person wants attention. These are vanity pages, as I understand them. I don't have any desire to cover up anything. I have no vested interest in EITHER side. Just an interest in keeping the Wikipedia full of useful information and uncluttered by fluff. I don't think this Robert Saulnier thing is so big as to be of such importance on the Londonderry page at all. I mean, there are LOTS of other things I think would be worth mentioning before that. Still, I allowed it on the page, as a mention. Maybe should add a link in to a story about it. But does Robert Saulnier deserve his own page, I don't think so. (My opinion, but other Wiki folks seem to agree.) Anyway, this is nothing about Political Correctness at all. If Londonderry's in the wrong, by all means, they should fix it. I just don't think the Wiki needs to be the place to do it. Even so, if you disagree, comment on the "Articles for Deletion" page about RS.

As for Kindergarten, thanks for the info. I was just trying to get an idea from those still in the know about what the current state of schools was. I didn't remember South, North, and MT having K, but since someone said they did, I assumed they were right. I put down "Pre-K" on Moose Hill because that's what they say on their page, but apparently they only mean LEEP. So, thanks for clearing that up. I didn't see if you have changed the page itself or just this talk page, but I'll check. Thanks!

As an aside, please sign your talk if you can with four tildes. Isoxyl 13:31, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Notable inhabitants

Yeh, all the other NH towns have "Notable inhabitants". That isn't to say that's *right*, just that I've been standardizing the cities and towns pages. WikiProject Cities uses "Notable Natives", but that cuts out a lot of our "summer residents" and others associated with a particular town. I picked "inhabitants" when I started standardizing, but I'm open to finding another word. I thought "and other people associated with X" was a bit too wordy, though :) -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 15:45, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

What about those who were born there, but no longer live there. For instance, Poet Ethan Paquin grew up in Londonderry and attended LHS, but no longer lives in Londonderry. Is this still worthy of mention? Still, he doesn't seem to fit the definition of "inhabitant" though he would "native"... Isoxyl 21:36, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I think the year(s) that someone is/was an inhabitant doesn't really play a part. For instance, Hanover, NH lists people who are dead and people who lived in Hanover for some period of time, though may not any longer. Likewise, people born in a place but don't live there now. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 01:07, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, sounds good to me! Thanks. Isoxyl 01:29, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Err... Ethan Paquin? He has a stub page here. He looks to be a young college professor with a blog who has been published. His work is not mainstream as far as I can tell. Why would we call him notable? Thebmk 19:26, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Theoretically, if he's got a page on Wikipedia, then he's notable. If not, nominate him for deletion. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 21:49, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Notable enough at the moment for his own article. I think given his publications, his article is warranted, but that is my own opinion... Isoxyl 05:08, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, if you say so. I may nominate the article for deletion. The statement "notable enough at the moment for his own article" is the one that bothers me though for two reasons. First, The article looks a lot like a marketing tool. Second, because even if one assumes that it is legitimate (and one SHOULD do so), it is still a stub - and if this is indeed a notable person one would expect more. SatyrTN - the criteria for notability that stood out to me was permanence. Question: If Mr. P Died today, would the Smithsonian, The Museum of NH History, or in anyplace else think he was notable in 2017? Thebmk 02:56, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Feel free to nominate said article for deletion. I don't believe it is a marketing tool, as a little looking around shows a lot of similar articles for minor writers out there. Still, far be it from me to say that you think EP is notable. BTW, you shouldn't be bothered by such a throwaway statement like "notable enough at the moment for his own article" -- I was echoing the comment of SatyrTN that if he has a Wikipedia article he is (theoretically at least) considered notable by SOMEONE. I tend to fall more on the "keep" side of notability debates, for legitimate article subjects, because Wikipedia has the ability to be comprehensive and include minor, less important, articles about subjects that would never warrant articles in a real printed encyclopedia. But that is my opinion. Nor does the fact that the article is a stub bother me. There are a LOT of much shorter stubs out there. But, I ramble on. I don't much care. I would (and will) vote KEEP on the EP article, but feel free to nominate for deletion. On a side note, I do believe that the Londonderry article should include some more Notable people--because as much as I think we should keep the EP article, there MUST be many more notable people in/from town, and it would be good to have THEM listed as well. My humble opinions only... Have a nice day. Isoxyl 05:09, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't really want to focus on Mr. P himself though, but on what criteria we are using to determine that someone is notable. I can think of several people who probably are notable by any standard that would make Mr. P notable at this time. The question is does Mr. P define the bar for minimum notability? Is the bar lower? We could easily add a dozen or so still-living "notables". Why shouldn't we? Thebmk 02:56, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Londonderry-->Derry-->Londonderry-->Derry

While I can relate to the fact that the city in Ireland has a disputed name (Londonderry vs. Derry, Derry being the original name), I don't think we need to keep changing references to the city in New Hampshire. Perhaps someone can add a note about the disputed name that doesn't put politics over American usage. In New Hampshire, since the towns of Londonderry and Derry are distinct towns next to each other, with no political problems between them or arguments over the proper naming terminology, let's try to keep Irish politics out of this. At the time of the foundation of Londonderry in 1718 and its charter in 1722, I'm guessing that the prevailing, or at least official name (after 1617 or whatever) name of the city in Ireland was "Londonderry" but that other settlers carving out Nutfield recognized the old name and founded another town called Derry. Either way, can this be explained simply, without preference to one or the other, as neither is particularly relevant to any history of the town in New Hampshire? (No offense to Irish nationalists, who certainly have cause to have resented English policies in Ireland, but it's not particularly important to the article at hand.) Isoxyl 15:08, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Surly the origins of the names of these two New Hampshire towns is important in their history. Over at WP:IMOS there's an agreement that the Irish city of Derry be referred to as "Derry" and not "Londonderry". Therefore in mentioning where the town got its name, its correct to say it came from the Iris City of Derry. Derry Boi 17:46, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

But surely it is also appropriate to mention that Derry was called Londonderry at the time? Or something like that? I think to deny it is to be a bit too PC, IMHO. The naming differences are not a part of the Derry/Londonderry situation in New Hampshire. The WP:IMOS is very important when referring to the actual Irish city in question. Not so much for the one in N.H. But anyway, Ken has gone ahead and made some changes. I'll look to see whether he's come up with a good compromise. Let's see...

"it was chartered and given the name "Londonderry," after the Protestant name for the city of Derry in Ireland."

I think this is a good compromise, as it actually explains how we got Londonderry from Derry, rather than just assuming that some hick N.H. apple farmers decided to add London- to the beginning for no reason. =) I might even add "which was known as Londonderry at the time" but I will refrain. Not trying to be argumentative, but I want the article to actually explain how Londonderry _New Hampshire_ came about, and where its name came from in a coherent and not necessarily political way. Isoxyl 18:46, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I slighlty reworded it again. To describe it as "the Protestant name for Derry" is to misunderstand the complexities of Irish politics. I feel "unionist" is a better term. Also not all unionists would refer to it as "Londonderry", especially unionists from Derry itself, therefore I included the word "many" and not "all". Derry Boi 19:00, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi Derry Boi. I think this moves things perhaps in the direction of further compromise:

"Many unionists refer to Derry as Londonderry, and thus it became known as Londonderry."

However, the sentence in question refers completely to the city in Ireland and not the town in New Hampshire. I think it needs to be reworded again to reflect that. I will give it a shot and you can see what you think. Isoxyl 19:20, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I think its now fine. Derry Boi 22:02, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

More edits were made today, presumably by Derry/Londonderry partisans. This article is about the US town of that name. Please discuss changes to the wording here first, because otherwise we tend to get edit wars, as shown above. We are not interested in irish politics, only the historical roots of the name. Isoxyl 14:35, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Moved down here from its placement above by Isoxyl 15:43, 27 August 2007 (UTC):

The British town is in the United Kingdom and it's correct mame is Londonderry not "Derry". It is not in Ireland. YourPTR! 21:05, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, it certainly is on the ISLAND of Ireland, regardless of its political jurisdiction. And it is called different things by different people and was called different things at different points in its past. Just please don't change it here. Look, this article about the town in NEW HAMPSHIRE, USA, would really like to not be the target of any more partisan bickering between people in UK/Ireland. Our town is named what it is, and it is not changing. But you don't have to look to far for your opinion either way, because our neighboring town in N.H. is called Derry! Isoxyl 15:43, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

As it currently stands Derry/Londonderry is misleading, confusing and illogical. 1) An uninformed reader could be under the impression that the place in Ireland is called Derry/Londonderry, so 'or' is preferable. Also, since the town was named after the usage Londonderry, as opposed to Derry, it is logical to have it come first. Likewise in the article on Derry NH, were this issue to arise, it would be logical to have Derry first. I am reinstating my changes as they are uncontroversial, do not change the substance of the text and make it clearer. Cripipper (talk) 15:49, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Fine, if you say so, they must be uncontroversial. But I can tell you that this issue (as evidenced above) has been endlessly rehashed here. If your change sticks, fine. But if somehow the people who want to fight over priority of Derry and Londonderry show up, I'll revert it again just to make them go away. The point I have made all along is that THIS town is in New Hampshire, not Ireland, but it always seems to attract partisans. I'm just interested in having the best article on THIS town and calming down the people who want to come in and make their political points. Certainly the NH town was named after the Irish town when it was called Londonderry, though! I hope your change is acceptable to all the others, because I don't want any more discussion of this here. The town in NH is related basically in name only to its Irish counterpart so it is particularly annoying to have the debate spill over here. Thanks!Isoxyl (talk) 19:38, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

CHANGES TO THE NAME DERRY / LONDONDERRY in N Ireland.

I am the person who made the changes and I would like to explain why. Is this the forum where I provide the explanation? The official name of Derry in Northern Ireland is Londonderry. This is recognized in international law and endorsed by both the British and Irish government in law. Yes people use the name Derry / Londonderry depending on their political / cultural perspective but the fact is it is officially Londonderry. It was given this name in 1613 and it is the official name today. There are discussions to change this but it has not happened officially. Next problem is the term “Irish” unionists. Again the unionists in Northern Ireland are not Irish citizens in law just like Canadians are not Americans and vice versa. They are British and if they want to be Irish citizens they are allowed to do this just as citizens of the republic of Ireland may become British citizens (6 million live in the UK). The British people in N Ireland have Northern Irish accents but they are British in nationality - again recognized in international law. Londonderry is not a city in the political jurisdiction called Ireland. Yes it is a city on the Island of Ireland from a geographical perspective just like Toronto is in North America like New York. But Toronto is in the political jurisdiction called Canada not the USA. Similarly Londonderry is a city in the United Kingdom - again international law. I suspect the people who write this stuff are Americans who do not understand the governance of the UK and Republic of Ireland. You may not like this situation but again in law it is a fact and I thought that is what WIKIPEDIA is about. If you need this verified talk to a government rep from the Republic of Ireland or the UK. You must maintain facts that are verifiable or it brings into question the integrity of your article. I await your response. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amgiamgi (talk • contribs) 19:12, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Amgiami! Yes, this is the place to talk about changing the wording in this article about the New Hampshire town of Londonderry. I recognize the history and law you point out above is significant regarding the city in Ireland, but I must point out that it's only marginally important in regards to the town in New Hampshire. Would the following phrase be worded in a way people could agree on?

In 1722, it was chartered and given the name "Londonderry". The name was in reference to the Irish city of Derry, which was sometimes called Londonderry.

Thoughts? As a side note, when you write something on a talk page like this one, you should follow your comments with four tildes like this: ~~~~ — that automatically puts a signature on your comments that looks something like this: SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 19:56, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I take some offense to the idea that we are all ignorant Americans without knowledge of Ireland and the United Kingdom. I think we, or at least many of us, know quite a bit, and aim to make this article and every other article fit a neutral point of view on such things. I object to the use of THIS article as a battleground for Irish Nationalists and "British" Irish Unionists, etc., etc. I used the term "Irish" to mean "the Irish people" or "the Irish soil". We may disagree as to whether the people who happen to live in northern ireland are "Irish" or not, but the city, being located on the island of Ireland, is, I would venture to say, "Irish" whether it is part of the British Sovereign lands or not. I suppose you could say that the people of Northern Ireland are "British" if they want to be, and that some of them are probably of "Irish" stock and even call themselves "Irish", but this isn't important for this article. here are the salient points I would like to make with the Londonderry, New Hampshire article, and let's see if we can find a way to make them all:

• Londonderry is the name of the town in N.H.
• Londonderry was the name of the city in Ireland at the time it was named after said city
• That city is now known by both names, Londonderry in its "city charter", among some people, and whatnot, and is also known as Derry in some official capacities and also colloquially.

That's all I want known--the facts. Whether each name is good or bad is up to the person reading to decide. I don't care about what it is called on the island of Ireland--just in NH! I hope we can agree that we ALL want neutral POV! Isoxyl 20:15, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

AMGI Response

OK I got you. I will get back to you and tell you why these things matter and why you must be factual. I mean no offence to anyone but I have lived and travelled much in the US and I understand why concepts like this can get mixed. I will be in touch and you will find I am easy to work with. I realize that you are trying to build a story about New Hampshire and do not need the baggage from the British Isles (Amgiamgi 20:24, 21 December 2006 (UTC))

Here's the thing--I have never disagreed about being "factual". I have seen that there is the incorrect fact that the N Irish city has a royal charter which says Derry--it says Londonderry. But that is easily fixed. Still, looking at the Derry page, it appears they have come to the conclusion that despite this, the town is commonly known as Derry. I understand that they matter on the island of Ireland, but I don't want to clutter up the article here with it. Still, it seems we need to do this, or ever few months someone with one POV or other will come along and change it, sparking debates again. Here's a suggestion, a starting point. The reason I have not gone into greater discussion before on the Londonderry, New Hampshire, page, is because this information is irrelevant to the town there. It really is--there are NO debates about names for the town there. Derry is next door, why would we disagree?

In 1722, it was chartered and given the name "Londonderry," after the Irish city of Derry which was in the eighteenth century called Londonderry. Today, that city is located in the region of the island of Ireland which is a part of the United Kingdom, called Northern Ireland. The name of that town is under dispute, with its royal charter using the name Londonderry, while common usage on the part of its residents is Derry. However, the town in New Hampshire has no disagreement regarding its name, being bordered on the east by the town of Derry.

I just don't want to have this debate anew everytime someone discovers it! Let's come to some "arrangement" and hope that it stays that way for awhile! =) Isoxyl 20:31, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Here is the solution. Just say "Londonderry New hampshire was named after the city in Northen Ireland called Derry / Londonderry". Leave it at this and create a link to the Northern Irish city. Say no more. That is for the other site, and it works well. You may innocently be very offensive to people by calling it an Irish city etc. Just deal with facts and let disputes be discussed elsewhere. Make the focus the New hampshire town and forget N Ireland or you will have a lot of problems in the future. I can guarantee you will never hear about this again. By the way because the town on New hampshire is called Londonderry it was probably founded by Scots Irish presbyterians - maybe I dont know. Also Londonderry NI got it's name in the 17th century 1613.

Regards — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amgiamgi (talk • contribs) 21:40, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Isn't that what I said above?

“ In 1722, it was chartered and given the name "Londonderry". The name was in reference to the Irish city of Derry, which was sometimes called Londonderry. ”

(PS, Amgiamgi, please don't forget to sign your comments :) -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 21:50, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

This is still not correct. It is not sometimes called Londonderry. It is officially called Londondery but Irish nationalists and republicans dont like this and this must be respected. However it is not an Irish city other than existing on the geographic entity called the Island of Ireland. It is an Northern Irish or more correctly a British city but the way around this is to say "named after the city in Northern Ireland called Derry / Londonderry". Believe me the / (stroke) is very important - it denotes a dispute and it is a compromise accepted by both sides in Northern Ireland. They even call it Stroke city because of the dispute and this is a light herated attempt to work through the hundreds of years of pain. You can't call it an Irish city because it is NOT part of the political entity called the Republic of Ireland (ROI) and this is acepted by the government of the ROI. This is incorrect it is part of the political entity called Northern Ireland which is an integral part of the UK. To change this situation will require political dialogue and it wont be any time in the next 40 years. If you do not accept these facts you will always have problems. To many people have died over this stuff. It may sound silly but believe me for those who live there this is serious stuff. The only solution are the following words "Londonderry New hampshire was named after the city in Northen Ireland called Derry / Londonderry". Dont say anything else. Leave that for the Derry / Londonderry site. Amgiamgi 22:19, 21 December 2006 (UTC)).

That works for me. I'd like to point out that I used the words was sometimes called deliberately, though - not is sometimes called. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 23:02, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

That looks fine--but I will delete the spaces around Derry / Londonderry, and just use Derry/Londonderry, for grammatical/typographical reasons--it doesn't look right in print that way. I will link to the name dispute page as well. Any problems, comment here first before reverting? Isoxyl 23:06, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Second Largest Town

From the article:

• "Londonderry was the second largest town"

Second largest in what? The colony? Isoxyl 23:11, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually many towns broke off from Londonderry at a certain point in time. Manchester is one of those!!!!!! Yes.. that claim is very likely to be true.VentusIgnis 00:52, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

History

I hope to add to the History section sometime in the next few weeks. At present, nothing seems to have happened in Londonderry between 1790 and 2000. This is mostly true of course.  :-) Does anyone know of anything that ought not be left out? Thebmk 03:03, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Other notable residents and the apple orchards

Another resident or two you might want to mention: Brad Delp, the lead singer of Boston lived in Londonderry for most of the 80s and the 70s; also Matt Czurchy from Gilmore Girls grew up in Londonderry.

There have been (or at least were) for the past 50+ years four family owned orchards in Londonderry ~ Mack's, Sunnycrest, Woodmont, and Elwood. (Mack's was owned by the Mack Family, Sunnycrest by the Connors, Woodmont by the Lievens and I'm not sure who owned Elwood.)

Also, we were always taught at Matthew Thornton that Londonderry was the largest (land mass) town or city in NH. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.42.172.31 (talk) 19:06, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Good points. I think fleshing out the Orchards and their heritage would be useful. The land mass thing I think should be checkable. Anyone have the facts? Feel free to add the Notable Residents if you can find a source for the data... Isoxyl 20:34, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Merge discussion

Please see the WikiProject New Hampshire talk page for background on the proposed merge of the Londonderry CDP article with this article. --Ken Gallager (talk) 17:00, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Continued Derry/Londonderry Name Dispute Spill-Over to This Page

This place in New Hampshire is NOT the site for any Wikipedia readers/editors to take out their frustrations regarding the name dispute on the island of Ireland. That is irrelevant to this article. The town in NH was named after this city in Ireland, which at the time was called Londonderry. What it is now called is irrelevant, and edits seem to always push one side or the other of this agenda. The agreed-upon language, now consistent with the Londonderry (NH) Historical Society language, should not be altered without serious justification. To gain that justification from those of us who watch this page, please discuss here FIRST, before making changes. Otherwise, they will be reverted immediately. Isoxyl (talk) 19:45, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

I would just like to add that the city you refer to in the Kingdom of Ireland as it was then, was called Londonderry and is still officially called Londonderry irrespective of Irish Republican attempts to change it and wikipedia consensus. I certainly agree that what the city is called now is not of relevance here. However,I find it quite trivial and intriguing that you saw fit to remove the sentence which I inserted in the article such that: "... the town was chartered and given the name "Londonderry" in commemoration of the city where most of them had resided in their native land". --81.187.71.75 (talk) 12:32, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Another way to look at this is from the New Hampshire/New England point of view. Many people in the region are aware that Londonderry and Derry are towns in New Hampshire, but I suspect far fewer realize that they both are named after the same place in Ireland. That's a good enough reason to show both names in this article.--Ken Gallager (talk) 13:45, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Derry not Londonderry

This page should be deleted altogether.Derry is its name. http://www.derry.nh.us/Pages/index. Sheodred (Sheodred) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.78.20.121 (talk) 12:58, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Uh, no. Read the article again. Derry and Londonderry are neighbors. Come over to New Hampshire sometime to see for yourself. --Ken Gallager (talk) 13:01, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

tom radloff?

tom radloff living in Londonderry, new Hampshire i know him from youtube my question if someone know him — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.121.245.67 (talk) 09:52, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

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