Talk:List of women warriors in literature and popular culture/Archive 2

Inclusivity?

I just wanted to highlight this issue:

Many of the women listed here are not warriors!

warrior: a person habitually engaged in warfare [Wikipedia]; a brave or experienced soldier or fighter [NOAD]

This list certainly should not include women who are simply "strong female icons" like Rosie the Riveter or femme fatales.

The status of adventurers like Lara Croft or women spies or police is marginal at best.

The acid test should be, would a corresponding male character be included? Is Indiana Jones a warrior? Is James Bond a warrior? Is Jim Brass a warrior?

--Ant (talk) 11:10, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Oddly enough, without war, Rosie the Riveter would not have arisen as an icon. Thus, you could say she was a leader of a female contingent of "warriors:" in that day, the role of women during war was to be at home working while their men went out to defend the country.

Well, by that definition my cat is a warrior. "The role of cats during war is to be at home purring, eating, and shitting."

I'm also not sure about femme fatales universally; Mata Hari was engaged in spying, for example, which is certainly a primary activity of war, and she was, therefore, engaged in warfare; there's more to that game than four legs in the brush. I would actually include Indiana Jones under "a brave fighter." Jim Brass was certainly an experienced soldier, since the first sentence in the link you yourself included explained that he spent two tours of duty in the Vietnam War. rainmound —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.203.105.20 (talk) 21:26, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Ant. Rosie the Riveter may have only arisen because of the war, and was certainly depicted as the leading strong woman of the era in which there were many, but she was in no way, shape, or form depicted as a warrior.

As for the other examples, people like Indiana Jones to me would be a big maybe. Femme fatales under espionage may count, I suppose. I would say female officers in military organizations may count as well, even if not engaging in fighting directly, as long as they command troops who do it. Jaimeastorga2000 (talk) 06:56, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

agreed. Rosie the Riveter is a no-brainer, nothing to do with "warrior". dab (𒁳) 19:49, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

The term "warrior" has two meanings, one literal, one figurative as demonstrated via the dictionary definition below. The dual nature of this term is also apparent in the bibliography for the article, in which the term "warrior" is used by a number of texts in both its literal as well as its figurative sense. This definition should be kept in mind when reducing the list. While I do agree that some of the names listed here are questionable and the list should be reduced, I would argue that Rosie the Riveter does belong here as this image clearly fits the figurative definition which developed during WWII when women were encouraged to do work which had previously been deemed only appropriate for men. [1] This article from The Nation also uses Rosie in a warrior context. [2]

Here is what was added to the warrior article:

According to the Random House Dictionary, the term warrior has two meanings. The first literal use refers to "a person engaged or experienced in warfare." The second figurative use refers to "a person who shows or has shown great vigor, courage, or aggressiveness, as in politics or athletics." "

-Classicfilms (talk) 11:43, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I think that it is important to restrict the use of "warrior" here to its literal definition as someone active in combat or warfare. I don't mind including female officers who may or may not have actually fought in combat, but if we're going to start including characters like Rosie The Riveter, I think that anyone could argue for any female character to be included under the "figurative" definition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PoBoy321 (talk • contribs) 20:59, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree, a solider who never engaged in combat could be a warrior. I think this list should focus on women that being a warrior is an important part of. Most real spies don't use guns or actually fight. Members of the Armed Forces who would not qualify as combatants such as Chaplains, or nurses aren't warriors. Also, Lara Croft is not a warrior, she is an armed archaeologist, who fights mainly animals, and fights mainly out of self defense. Isn't Grendal's mom a monster? should monsters count?Rds865 (talk) 05:48, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

The nature of Grendel's mother is a topic of debate among scholars and some argue that she was a warrior. See here In addition, as I wrote above, Rosie the Riveter is frequently used in the context of the term warrior - I would like to restore Rosie. Here is one source that I had added above. It directly links her to the Amazon myth, which is enough to adhere to Wikipedia policies.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20000515/steiner/3

-Classicfilms (talk) 23:44, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I've restored her and added the reference. -Classicfilms (talk) 15:03, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Notability and Organization

some of these characters lack notability, and this list is disorganized. Some list source and then character, others visa versa. there are several parody listings. Rds865 (talk) 06:18, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Cops, Horror Victims, and Spies

Are Cops warriors? I don't think so. Are Victims of a slasher movie warriors? defiantly not, unless they are a solider, not a high schooler. Spies fall into two categories. One is the armed warrior/assassin type. This is the kind is more of a covert commando then an intelligence gatherer agent. The other is someone who spies on people and rarely, if at all uses a weapon, these are not warriors. Also, do warrior like persons, who use strictly nonlethal means count as warriors? Rds865 (talk) 15:21, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Sports

I restored the sports section. In defining what a warrior is, we should always turn to a standard definition which I will paste again here:

According to the Random House Dictionary, the term warrior has two meanings. The first literal use refers to "a person engaged or experienced in warfare." The second figurative use refers to "a person who shows or has shown great vigor, courage, or aggressiveness, as in politics or athletics." "

As indicated above, athletes are referred to as figurative warriors. Anthropologists have written on the fact that sports is often a substitute for war. Here is one link which discusses this fact. The sports section belongs here.

Anthropology student hopes to recreate ancient ball court

http://news-service.stanford.edu/pr/93/930524Arc3258.html

While I agree that the list needs to be trimmed, we should use the standard definition when deciding what should be removed. -Classicfilms (talk) 23:32, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Here's the ref tag for the definition.-Classicfilms (talk) 00:02, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I think that makes the definition too broad if we include every politician and female athlete. A definition that is not so subjective is needed. Rds865 (talk) 23:36, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Athletics is supported not only by the definition but also by research conducted by anthropologists - the small article from Stanford is just one but if need be I can dig up other references from anthropologists to support a connection between sports and the term "warrior" - as indicated by the athletics team, Golden State Warriors. Sports should stay. Otherwise, there are no politicians on the list so I don't think it's an issue. And if one is added, then a reference for it should be requested. Other parts of the page are really long and could be tweaked or references could be requested. -Classicfilms (talk) 02:02, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Here is another reference just for our purposes - notes from a class called "The Anthropology of Sport" - the connection is pretty clear. -Classicfilms (talk) 02:11, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I know sports are considered to be a replacement for warfare, but does that make them true warriors? the Merriam Webster dictionary does not even give the figurative definition. is this the list of figurative warriors? There is a sports team called the Pistons, are pistons, warriors? I am not arguing that athletes may be compared to warriors, I a m saying is they are not warriors. Rds865 (talk) 15:33, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I've provided numerous references to support keeping sports on this page, all of which meet WP requirements. It's fine to disagree, but unless disagreement is supported by references then we are moving away from WP guidelines. So there really isn't a good reason to remove the sports section. On the other hand, some of the other sections seem to be candidates for trimming. For example, perhaps the superheroines list could be limited to a redirect to the main article since the ones which are chosen are subjective. The computer games and sci fi lists could also be trimmed. -Classicfilms (talk) 16:00, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Here is another reference from the 2006 book, "Modern Amazons: Warrior Women On Screen" by Dominique Mainon and James Ursini. They write on page 265 (Chapter 10): "An important subset of the warrior women genre is women's sports films." -Classicfilms (talk) 01:36, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

if movie genre names is enough to define things then I guess you could go with the broadest definition possible. However, if the literal definition of warrior is not used, then the list should be renamed, strong, aggressive, and courageous women in literature and pop culture. Since I am not likely to find a source saying specifically that athletes are not warriors. I will try to find an example of how warriors are not the same as athletes. Rds865 (talk) 03:11, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

The only other list of warriors I found was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_warriors It makes no mention of athletes. Rds865 (talk) 03:16, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

There is an entire body of scholarship which uses the term "Women Warriors" to discuss images in popular culture whether discussing sports films, action films, sci fi etc... Professor Sherrie Inness, for example has written numerous articles and texts on the topic such as Tough Girls: Women Warriors and Wonder Women in Popular. Another noted text is Athena’s Daughters: Television’s New Women Warriors. The references section of this article contains numerous articles and books to back this up. This, in addition to all of the references I cite above, outweighs the wiki page which you mention, since I am referring to notable sources, in print and online, by scholars in a variety of fields, as well as the Random House Dictionary, who are all defining warriors this way. I think I've provided enough references to justify keeping sports on the page. -Classicfilms (talk) 03:57, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

they are not really defining warriors, but defining women by saying they are like warriors. The meaning as in the random house definition is figurative, not literal. If you think that this list should include all athletes, as well as any tough girl, then by all means do so. I see there being more value in having a list of female who engage in warfare, then every strong courageous women, and athlete. If you see women warrior as an archetype, then this article should be written accordingly. Women warrior as an archetype in literature, is different than a literal female warrior. Rds865 (talk) 05:37, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok, this is a fair request. I re-organized the page accordingly and tweaked it along the way. -Classicfilms (talk) 07:18, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Tag removal

Unless there are further objections, I would like to remove the tags at the top of the article since it appears that the issues surrounding the article have been resolved. I will wait a few days and if there is no response to this post, I will remove the tags. -Classicfilms (talk) 22:04, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I have removed the tags. -Classicfilms (talk) 14:28, 4 May 2008 (UTC)