Talk:List of visible minority politicians in Canada
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Vic Toews
editWhy is Vic Toews on the list? Mennonite Germans are not a visible minority, regardless of what country he was born. -- Earl Andrew - talk 19:51, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
- He's since been removed, but I'm pretty sure somebody just assumed that having been born in Paraguay automatically made him Latino somehow. Bearcat (talk) 18:52, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
Information being removed
editCan anyone provide guidance on the following?
1. A user keeps trying to remove information from the page by removing statistics such as leadership positions and ministerial responsibilities given to politicians. The user which removes them claims it is 'clutter', but the only positions there are the most important ones (Cabinet positions, party leadership positions, and if they held a position at another level - MP, MPP/MLA or Mayor/Councillor). These are sourced and I think they are important to show the progress visible minority politicians have made and what positions they have held over time.
My Question: Is this information important? Should it be there or removed?
2. The same user is also removing ancestry data for politicians of Caribbean descent and is changing them simply to "Black Canadian". For example, they are changing persons of "Jamaican-Canadian" descent into "Black Canadian". According to Statistics Canada, persons can identify as "Jamaican-Canadian" or "Grenadian-Canadian" and don't all fall under a general "Black Canadian" identity. Therefore, I think it is relevant to include this ancestral data instead of just saying they are "Black Canadian," especially for those who actually immigrated or are immediate descendants of those who immigrated from states in the Caribbean. My understanding is that "Black Canadian" is generally more appropriate a label for those who are not of direct African or Caribbean descent (ex. those who are descendants of African slaves which were involuntarily brought to Canada in the 17th/18th century).
My Question: Should we retain the ancestry as that from the Caribbean, or should they be changed to "Black Canadian"?
Gforbes1962 (talk) 00:49, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
- I think we shouldn't be changing the ancestry of the politicians by just putting "Black Canadian" as that is just is sloppy work, especially if they are Jamaican, Nigerian, Grenadian etc and Statistics Canada describes them as such, so I agree with you on that. However, I have looked over the positions that many held and I think it could be described as clutter. Many of the MPs are listed in other parts of the 'List of visible minority politicians in Canada' page if they served as an MPP or MLA, so there is no need to include this in their MPs section as people can scroll down or click on their wikipedia article to find out more. So I think that part should be removed. 105.14.58.160 (talk) 17:51, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you for your feedback. I think that is a fair consensus and agree with you. I will wait in case more users would like to chip in their thoughts, but otherwise will make changes to remove offices held which are repeated in the article.Gforbes1962 (talk) 23:51, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
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Black Canadians
editIf you look at the USA and UK and indeed France and Germany, they label their politicians as either Black British or African American etc. They don't put Jamaican British or Kenyan American. It is the same with Canada as they are Black Canadians so we should put that in the article. Furthermore there is a huge in constituency within the article as some black Canadians are listed from their families country of origin, whilst others are just described as Black. So I think all should be classed as Black, since that is what they are. 86.11.92.125 (talk) 19:09, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
- According to your IP it appears you are from the UK. Canadian Census records work differently than the United Kingdom and the United States. Census self-identification provides those who are ethnically 'black' identification with a nationality, such as Jamaican Canadian or Somali Canadian. For identification purposes, Black Canadian is an umbrella term, but it makes no sense to use Black Canadian when individuals have an ethnicity. It would be like calling all Pakistani and Indian Canadians South Asian Canadians, as that is their umbrella term. Previous consensus on this page agreed that Black Canadian is inappropriate, except for those who are not direct descendants or immigrants of those from Africa or the Caribbean. Please stop your disruptive editing. Gforbes1962 (talk) 22:37, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
- Actually the census's aren't different in the slightest. In the UK and USA there are boxes where you write where you write your ethnic nationality e.g Jamaican British or Somali American, however you are still then classified as Black British and African American, hence why on all these Black Canadian's wikipedia articles, at the very bottom, it says Category:Black Canadian politicians. It's also why newspaper articles describe them as Black Canadian and not Jamaican Canadian or Zimbabwean Canadian. They may put that their family originated from Zimbabwe, but they are still Black Canadian. Whereas it is Indian American or Chinese British. I should point out that the previous IP address, who commented above, was actually me editing when I was elsewhere and only wrote what I put about putting Black Canadian being inappropriate because you kept reverting me. 86.11.92.125 (talk) 22:56, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
- The Canadian Census is significantly different from one where you just 'write-in' your ethnicity. The Canadian census specifically gives these prompts to individuals to identify. Again, Black Canadian is an umbrella term. We are not using umbrella terms here, we are using specific ethnicities. There is a significant difference. Will be filing a page protection. Gforbes1962 (talk) 23:00, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
- I see you dropped your comments about 'slavery' since you knew you were wrong. The issue is all of these politicians wikipedia articles describe them as black Canadian, as do newspapers and the Canadian Parliament so why are you trying to change that? Further more your sock puppet complaint against me is pathetic... 86.11.92.125 (talk) 23:02, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
- @Gforbes1962: What are the reliable sources you're using for these more specific ethnicities? —C.Fred (talk) 23:08, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
- @C.Fred: Hi C.Fred, per the Canadian Census, individuals who are 'black' identify further with one of their ethnicities which could from where they have immigrated or identify (per ethnic origin). See here, Toronto for example. It makes no sense to place everyone in an umbrella term as Black Canadian as it is not generally done, for example, if one is an immigrant from Somalia or Morocco. It creates too large an umbrella term which doesn't look at ethnic origins, lumping in Caribbean Canadians, Canadians of direct African descent, and Black Canadians who are descendants of slavery into one big group. Gforbes1962 (talk) 23:13, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
- @Gforbes1962: That page has aggregate data. Where are you getting the information on specific individuals that you're using in the article? —C.Fred (talk) 23:16, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
- But show us why certain Canadian politicians are described in the article as Black Canadians and others aren't, as it can't possibly be because they are all descended from slaves, as you have no proof for that assumption and to say that people in the article are described as Black Canadian due to slavery is quite offensive. It's more than likely you just don't know what country their ancestors came from, otherwise you would have added it. That is why we should use the term 'Black Canadian' which is how they are described in their own wikipedia articles, in their own categories, in newspaper articles from canada and also in Parliament. 86.11.92.125 (talk) 23:20, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
- If an individual does not have a citable ethnicity we can find, then the ethnicity metric should be left blank. I can agree with you on that. But if they do have an ethnicity which is citable, then it should be used, such as Jamaican Canadian or Somali Canadian, instead of keeping the umbrella term of Black Canadian. Gforbes1962 (talk) 23:28, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
- @C.Fred: The Library of Parliament archives is one such place which has a politician's birthplace. Furthermore, many newspapers have sources showing a politician's ethnic origin, such as Ahmed Hussen (Somali), Sadia Groguhe, Tarik Brahmi and Djouaida Sellah (Algerian), Laura Mae Lindo (Jamaican), and so on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gforbes1962 (talk • contribs) 23:24, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
- Did you even read the article you just sent for Laura Mae Lindo? The opening line says 'Laura Mae Lindo is Kitchener's first black MPP'. Emphasis on the word Black, not Jamaican, but Black. As in Black Canadian... 86.11.92.125 (talk) 23:27, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
- My point isn't that all of these individuals aren't Black Canadian, but we are using ethnic origin here for the classifications, and most Black Canadians in Canada identify with an origin other than the umbrella term 'black'. We should be looking at that as our primary way of classification.Gforbes1962 (talk) 23:30, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
- @Gforbes1962: And my concern is, are we going to a verifiable published source for the ethnicity, or are we synthesizing it from the place of birth? —C.Fred (talk) 23:32, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
- @C.Fred:I think that wherever we able to find one, it should be used. Unfortunately the issue is that ethnicity is not as discussed or able to be found outside of the 'born in' or 'immigrated from' statements in news articles. You're right in that it results from a lot of synthesizing, but a good chunk of this article, in that case, would come about as a result of synthesizing information based on a politician's place of birth or statement of origin.Gforbes1962 (talk) 23:38, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
- You sent a link to an article that showed you were wrong. No ifs or buts about it. Ok once again your claim about 'most Black Canadians in Canada identify with an origin other than the umbrella term black is unsourced and without any proof. All of these politicians articles describe them as Black Canadians and atm you haven't shown any proof that they are not Black Canadians... 86.11.92.125 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:35, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
- Like I stated before, I am not disagreeing that these politicians are black, but if we are able to find a good source showing their ethic origin, it should be used instead. For example, if we were to use Black Canadian as the overarching term, Indian, Pakistani, Afghani or Sri Lankan Canadian politicians should have the South Asian Canadian umbrella term used instead. If we are able to find a more specific national origin, it should be used. Gforbes1962 (talk) 23:40, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
- That unfortunately is not how it works when it comes to black canadians, however Pakistani, Indian and Sri Lankan politicians is the correct terminology, I don't make the rules. List of ethnic minority politicians in the United Kingdom is a good example, as those who are Indian and Pakistani are listed as such, whilst it is Black British, regardless of where their family originated from. Same in America with: African Americans in the United States Congress and many people in this article are descended from slaves, were slaves or are descended from immigrants, whereas Chinese American politicians or Indian american politicians are described as just that = Chinese and Indian. 86.11.92.125 (talk) 23:49, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
- The issue here is that you're equating British and American terminology with Canadian terminology. How about we reach a compromise, and we use Black Canadian (Ethnic origin), similar to how in some cases it says Chinese Canadian (Mainland) or Chinese Canadian (Cantonese). That way, someone can tell of what descent a Black Canadian is of? Gforbes1962 (talk) 03:18, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
- But the terminology is the same in Western Countries, I could show you similar things in France and Germany, you have been unable to offer any proof or sources backing up your claims. However, I think putting Black-Canadian (Kenyan) or Black Canadian (Jamaican), similar to what is put for Chinese and Indian politicians within the article, would be acceptable. 86.11.92.125 (talk) 09:34, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
- The issue here is that you're equating British and American terminology with Canadian terminology. How about we reach a compromise, and we use Black Canadian (Ethnic origin), similar to how in some cases it says Chinese Canadian (Mainland) or Chinese Canadian (Cantonese). That way, someone can tell of what descent a Black Canadian is of? Gforbes1962 (talk) 03:18, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
- That unfortunately is not how it works when it comes to black canadians, however Pakistani, Indian and Sri Lankan politicians is the correct terminology, I don't make the rules. List of ethnic minority politicians in the United Kingdom is a good example, as those who are Indian and Pakistani are listed as such, whilst it is Black British, regardless of where their family originated from. Same in America with: African Americans in the United States Congress and many people in this article are descended from slaves, were slaves or are descended from immigrants, whereas Chinese American politicians or Indian american politicians are described as just that = Chinese and Indian. 86.11.92.125 (talk) 23:49, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
- Like I stated before, I am not disagreeing that these politicians are black, but if we are able to find a good source showing their ethic origin, it should be used instead. For example, if we were to use Black Canadian as the overarching term, Indian, Pakistani, Afghani or Sri Lankan Canadian politicians should have the South Asian Canadian umbrella term used instead. If we are able to find a more specific national origin, it should be used. Gforbes1962 (talk) 23:40, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
- @Gforbes1962: And my concern is, are we going to a verifiable published source for the ethnicity, or are we synthesizing it from the place of birth? —C.Fred (talk) 23:32, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
- My point isn't that all of these individuals aren't Black Canadian, but we are using ethnic origin here for the classifications, and most Black Canadians in Canada identify with an origin other than the umbrella term 'black'. We should be looking at that as our primary way of classification.Gforbes1962 (talk) 23:30, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
- Did you even read the article you just sent for Laura Mae Lindo? The opening line says 'Laura Mae Lindo is Kitchener's first black MPP'. Emphasis on the word Black, not Jamaican, but Black. As in Black Canadian... 86.11.92.125 (talk) 23:27, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
- But show us why certain Canadian politicians are described in the article as Black Canadians and others aren't, as it can't possibly be because they are all descended from slaves, as you have no proof for that assumption and to say that people in the article are described as Black Canadian due to slavery is quite offensive. It's more than likely you just don't know what country their ancestors came from, otherwise you would have added it. That is why we should use the term 'Black Canadian' which is how they are described in their own wikipedia articles, in their own categories, in newspaper articles from canada and also in Parliament. 86.11.92.125 (talk) 23:20, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
- @Gforbes1962: That page has aggregate data. Where are you getting the information on specific individuals that you're using in the article? —C.Fred (talk) 23:16, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
- @C.Fred: Hi C.Fred, per the Canadian Census, individuals who are 'black' identify further with one of their ethnicities which could from where they have immigrated or identify (per ethnic origin). See here, Toronto for example. It makes no sense to place everyone in an umbrella term as Black Canadian as it is not generally done, for example, if one is an immigrant from Somalia or Morocco. It creates too large an umbrella term which doesn't look at ethnic origins, lumping in Caribbean Canadians, Canadians of direct African descent, and Black Canadians who are descendants of slavery into one big group. Gforbes1962 (talk) 23:13, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
- The Canadian Census is significantly different from one where you just 'write-in' your ethnicity. The Canadian census specifically gives these prompts to individuals to identify. Again, Black Canadian is an umbrella term. We are not using umbrella terms here, we are using specific ethnicities. There is a significant difference. Will be filing a page protection. Gforbes1962 (talk) 23:00, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
- Actually the census's aren't different in the slightest. In the UK and USA there are boxes where you write where you write your ethnic nationality e.g Jamaican British or Somali American, however you are still then classified as Black British and African American, hence why on all these Black Canadian's wikipedia articles, at the very bottom, it says Category:Black Canadian politicians. It's also why newspaper articles describe them as Black Canadian and not Jamaican Canadian or Zimbabwean Canadian. They may put that their family originated from Zimbabwe, but they are still Black Canadian. Whereas it is Indian American or Chinese British. I should point out that the previous IP address, who commented above, was actually me editing when I was elsewhere and only wrote what I put about putting Black Canadian being inappropriate because you kept reverting me. 86.11.92.125 (talk) 22:56, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
- I would say restore it back to the original by ethnicity. Black Canadian is too vague. Canadianpoliticalwatcher (talk) 18:40, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks. Gforbes1962 (talk) 02:34, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
Andrea Khanjin
editDoes anyone have a source confirming Andrea Khanjin is of Iranian ethnicity? I can find that the last name is predominantly used in Iran but articles I've seen only cite her Russian heritage. If we can't find any proof of Iranian ethnicity she should be removed. Canadianpoliticalwatcher (talk) 00:19, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
Leah Gazan
editLeah Gazan is of both Lakota and Chinese descent, and she is listed on the List of indigenous Canadian politicians but not here. I noticed that this page describes "visible minority" as "Canadians who identify as neither white nor indigenous". Gazan does identify as indigenous, but also has ancestry that is neither white or indigenous. Should she be included here? ChristyMcMorrow (talk) 01:34, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
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