Talk:List of titular churches

New church external links

I recommend creating new church articles from the external link given. Neddyseagoon (talk) 15:05, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I've done all that have articles on Nyborg, though San Nicola in Carcere, S. Eustachio and S. Teodoro need copyediting. Neddyseagoon (talk) 17:20, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Done. Neddyseagoon (talk) 21:51, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Immacolata Concezione di Maria a Grottarossa

Could you find photos of church Immacolata Concezione di Maria a Grottarossa? I am looking forward to hearing from you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.141.200.236 (talk) 10:53, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

San Giovanni Battista Decollato

The Italian Wikipedia article, as well as several other sources, indicate that this deaconry has been suppressed in 2013. Is anyone able to find a reputable source for this, indicating its suppression? RAVENPVFF | talk ~ 14:20, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

Italian Wikipedia does not quote any source for this claim. Titles or deaconries are established or supressed by an official document (Apostolic letter sub plumbo or formerly by an Apostolic constitution), published in the Acta Apostolicae Sedis, such as this. There is no such document in the AAS for 2013 or 2014 regarding S. Giovanni Battista Decollato, or in 2004 regarding S. Teodoro. Varro (talk) 15:33, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

Even so, I suppose that it's safe to list both the above titular churches are suppressed and no more cardinals will be assigned to them (though this is similar to Santa Maria in Cosmedin, which is not suppressed). My question is whether a source can be found that attests to this fact, which we may cite. RAVENPVFF | talk ~ 16:20, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

One indication is its inclusion on the deaconry list in the Annuario Pontificio (AP) 2012 on page 116* but does not appear in AP 2013 (page 116*) or later years of that publication.--Dcheney (talk) 16:54, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

Establishment date

Please note that the date when a title or deaconry was established is not the same as date of the consistory when it was first awarded to a Cardinal. The establishment date is the date of document creating a new title/deaconry. Most of them are published in the Acta Apostolicae Sedis, but some are not, so we can only presume that it was issued within a reasonable time before the consistory. Varro (talk) 12:10, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Even if the establishing documents are not published, I believe that we can safely use the consistories as the corresponding establishment dates for such titular churches. These are the dates on which they first became titulars in their own right, when a cardinal was first assigned, which can equivalently count as an 'establishment' for the purposes of this article. Furthermore, many titular churches may indeed be established on the date of the consistory, as evidenced, for example, by the apostolic letter for San Giacomo in Augusta on 22 February 2014 (the date of Francis's first consistory) here. Referring to the consistory date is not necessarily incorrect or unfavourable, in my opinion. RAVENPVFF | talk ~ 14:30, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

may have to be reworded again later

Notice that I just reworded to this:
"When a cardinal priest or a cardinal deacon is then appointed as a cardinal bishop (of the first order) in the title of a suburbicarian diocese, in the vicinity of Rome, he ceases in his titular church."
This was done to allow for the later-mentioned co-opting of 4 cardinals (from the orders of cardinal priest and cardinal deacon) to suburbicarian rank. POSSIBLE later wording would be:
"When a cardinal is then appointed as a cardinal bishop (of the first order) in the title of a suburbicarian diocese, in the vicinity of Rome, he ceases in his titular church."
This is because I am wondering that when a suburbicarian diocese title becomes vacant, is it possible for a cardinal in a co-opted title or deaconry to be transfered to a suburbicarian-diocese title?

Perhaps, but as there is literally no provision for this in canon law at the moment, we don't know what the pope might do in this circumstance. As Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, I think the lead wording should be kept as is for now. Regarding this, I've also moved the co-option sentence up to this paragraph, in addition to improving the layout slightly. — RAVENPVFF · talk · 16:40, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

While it has not yet occurred, the Pope has the right to move Cardinals between titles as he sees fit. There is one exception, "Ostia" which belongs to the Dean of the College of Cardinals (who is elected by the other Cardinal-Bishops and confirmed by the Pope). Note that Ostia is in addition to his existing title. Hence, Crd Sodano is Crd-Bp of Albano and Crd-Bp of Ostia. I should note there is some chatter that some additional adjustments to the College of Cardinals may be introduced this summer. --Dcheney (talk) 05:46, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

Ref problem

This ref is meant to link to 2010 assignments, but actually links to 2006 info. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 01:38, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

<ref name="Cons. 2010-11-20">"Assegnazione dei Titoli e delle Diaconie ai nuovi Cardinali" [Assignment of Titles and Deaconries to the new Cardinals]. The Holy See (in Italian). Ufficio delle Celebrazioni Liturgiche del Sommo Pontefice. 20 November 2010. Archived from the original on 28 July 2016. Retrieved 16 February 2018.</ref>

Try this instead: https://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/it/bollettino/pubblico/2010/11/20/0719/01648.html Dcheney (talk) 08:08, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

2022 Consistory info slip

Abp Fortunato Frezza has let it be known that he will be created with the Cardinal-Deacon of Santa Maria in Via Lata. Dcheney (talk) 23:38, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Coding and display details

In the course of updating following the recent consistory, I noticed some details I'd like to change to reduce the size of the file and simplify the updating process. I'd like opinions before making changes.

Do the word "Vacant" and its associated date need to be italicized?

Does the text "on the death of John Jones" need to be in a smaller typesize?

Do we need a dagger alongside the name of a vacant title?

Do we need citations to all 241 biographies when the citations to the consistories suffice?

Rutsq (talk) 01:35, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

I found this page overly complex when editing it and too much stuff is superfluous. I'd get rid of all these things you suggested and I'd argue these coordinates are too much as well, makes the page look like a tourist brochure. Killuminator (talk) 23:35, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

I never understood the point of the coordinates. I can't imagine someone wanting the coordinates of more than 1 of the churches - and the articles on the churches themselves already have the coordinates. (If someone wants to do a map of Rome with all of them plotted on it - that might be interesting - but doesn't seem to belong here.) Dcheney (talk) 06:52, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree re coordinates. I would eliminate the Location column, including neighborhoods. It belongs in an article on "Geographic distribution of titular churches", which no one will ever produce. But I'd like to hear from @Sheila1988: who works on the entries for the individual churches and updated the location data in this article following the latest consistory. Rutsq (talk) 16:41, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

I've changed the coding scheme and removed the mapping material. I've done my best to proofread my work, but I hope others will review it. I've simplified some of the names of the cardinals as well, which in a few cases alters the alphabetical order. I've tried to use the names by which these prelates are known rather than following the Vatican style of full and proper names which too often dictates what you see on WP. Some are easy and some I must admit are debatable. Rutsq (talk) 16:06, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

You can always look at the current Annuario Pontificio (1st section) that lists all living cardinals alphabetically by last name with short bio - helps clarify when the sort key is odd. Dcheney (talk) 21:50, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't have access to that publication (as far as I know), and I have not found the Holy See infallible when dealing with names, esp non-European names. Worst example: Malcolm Ranjith, alphabetized under P here because the HS presents his last name as "Patabendige Don". Rutsq (talk) 14:49, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

You might try a local secular library, a large number carry the Annuario Pontificio, although not always the latest edition (it is published annually). I am unaware of any online availability of recent editions, sadly. Dcheney (talk) 03:46, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Suburbicarian rank pro hac vice

Five churches (1 deaconry and 4 titles) now carry this notation "suburbicarian rank pro hac vice", but these statements are undocumented. The Holy See and certain other sites like GCatholic and Miranda record similar pro hac vice modifications on occasion, but do not report these.

For example, when Versaldi was made a cardinal priest the change was documented by the Holy See as "Deaconry elevated pro hac vice to presbyteral title (4 March 2022)" here and picked up by the two other sites I mentioned here and here.

I believe an editor has made an assumption that comparable changes occur in the cases of new cardinal bishops, but there's no evidence of any comparable title modification. Note especially the case of Filoni, who went from cardinal deacon to cardinal bishop in June 2018. His Holy See bio here mentions no pro hac vice adjustment. Any ideas? Rutsq (talk) 00:23, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Because this is such a new situation in the Church (a bit over 5 years), the language to describe them is not yet fully developed (imo). The language in the AAS (v110, 2018, p1006-7) and in the AP 2023 (p114*) speak of the _person_ being "co-opted" but says nothing of the title. As compared to, for example, the next entry in the AP where the title is said to be "pro hac vice Titolo Presbiterale" for Cardinal Kasper. I think the notation "suburbicarian rank pro hac vice" is simply wrong in multiple ways, as even the "co-opted" references say "order of bishops" and not "suburbicarian". Dcheney (talk) 03:43, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes. I've deleted these assertions. Rutsq (talk) 17:33, 1 November 2023 (UTC)