Talk:List of railroad truck parts
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Similar but not synonymous
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To say that axlebox and journal box are synonyms is a bit inaccurate even if the function may originally been the same. The appearance is not the same, and unlike the journal box, which was rarely adapted to rolling-element bearings the axle box was readily adapted. See illustrations in The Evolution of Railway Axlebox Technology. Peter Horn User talk 16:46, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
Also see Car and locomotive cyclopedia 1970. Peter Horn User talk 16:50, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
Images added. Peter Horn User talk 16:54, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
- No, it's not inaccurate. There's less significance in the natural variation of wording than that. When you look up "axle box" in Oxford Dictionaries online, you get simply "(On a railway vehicle) a metal enclosure within which the end of an axle revolves." When you look up "journal box" in the same Oxford resource, you get "A box that houses a journal and its bearing." Connecting the axle to the rest of the bogie is a housing in which a bearing resides. That was as true in 1840 as in 1940 or 2014. What has changed is that the bearing once was a plain bearing and now is a rolling-element bearing. You can call the housing an axle box or a journal box; they're synonymous. Keep in mind that a journal is, in the broad sense, simply "the part of a rotating shaft, axle, roll, or spindle that turns in a bearing" (as Merriam-Webster Collegiate online describes it). Not only railroad car axles have journals. Crankshafts have journals too. Some people call them crankpins. A journal box is literally a housing in which a journal (the end of the axle) resides. Now, granted, it's an artifact of idiom that when you say "journal bearing", the meaning is usually implicitly limited to plain bearings. But there's no idiomatic constraint on the term "axle box" that it refers only to those with roller bearings—and Oxford Dictionaries backs that up. Similarly, a pillow block can contain any kind of bearing (plain or roller)—either way, it's still a pillow block. — ¾-10 02:30, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
- The axlebox design appeared to quite adaptable to roller bearings. The American journal box was not quite as adaptable. The Car and locomotive cyclopedia 1970 shows on page 815 the method to adapt the journal box for the use of roller bearings (older editions show two pages) and on page 814 the tools to do this. The end results are not quite the same. Other than that, the North American journal box is an integral part of the truck side frame. The exception is the archbar truck. Peter Horn User talk 01:24, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
- Added a file (image) Peter Horn User talk 01:36, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
- The axlebox design appeared to quite adaptable to roller bearings. The American journal box was not quite as adaptable. The Car and locomotive cyclopedia 1970 shows on page 815 the method to adapt the journal box for the use of roller bearings (older editions show two pages) and on page 814 the tools to do this. The end results are not quite the same. Other than that, the North American journal box is an integral part of the truck side frame. The exception is the archbar truck. Peter Horn User talk 01:24, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
- The North American journal box was at times adapted to hold a standard N A wheelset cum standard bearings. Look at all sections to see the N A wheelsets with bearings. Peter Horn User talk 03:25, 21 November 2014 (UTC) Peter Horn User talk 15:27, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
- See als Talk:List of railroad truck parts#Axlebox below. Peter Horn User talk 15:43, 21 November 2014 (UTC) Peter Horn User talk 15:44, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
- Summary: Journalboxes are integral parts of the side frames of the Bettendorf truck, but axleboxes are not part of the sideframes of bogies. Peter Horn User talk 00:36, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
- See als Talk:List of railroad truck parts#Axlebox below. Peter Horn User talk 15:43, 21 November 2014 (UTC) Peter Horn User talk 15:44, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
Axlebox
editThe article says "... originally contained a set of long cylindrical rollers ..." and is sourced to The evolution of railway axlebox technology and A RAILWAY TECHNICAL WEB PAGES. I don't see anything in those sources that supports the claim. --Redrose64 (talk) 18:39, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
- Redrose
Please look at the first illustration (image) in The evolution of railway axlebox technology. What I see, I call long cylindrical rollers around the axle. If you want to call them something else, be my guest. What I'm saying is that if there are no words we have to fall back on an available image in a technical text. The second reference only justifies the term axlebox. Peter Horn User talk 20:25, 19 November 2014 (UTC)- Those are indeed long cylindrical rollers: but there is absolutely nothing there to say that this was the original design for an axlebox. Indeed, the various visible parts of the vehicle into which that axlebox is fitted - such as the cast frame, the triple suspension, the coil springs, the unspoked wheel and the cast iron brake blocks - suggest something twentieth century, several decades after axleboxes were first used. --Redrose64 (talk) 21:41, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
- The original interior of the axlebox most likely was a journal bearing like a that inside of the journal box which was an integral part the truck side frame. The journal box went into history with the universal introduction of roller bearings. The axlebox, readily detachable from the truck (forming part of the wheelset) proved to be adaptable. See the images of the journal box and the German axlebox above. Peter Horn User talk 22:08, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
- I've found that the picture that you mention is from 1908, and the type that you are discussing dates from no earlier than 1905. Axleboxes with plain bearings existed a long time before that. --Redrose64 (talk) 23:19, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
- The original interior of the axlebox most likely was a journal bearing like a that inside of the journal box which was an integral part the truck side frame. The journal box went into history with the universal introduction of roller bearings. The axlebox, readily detachable from the truck (forming part of the wheelset) proved to be adaptable. See the images of the journal box and the German axlebox above. Peter Horn User talk 22:08, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
- Those are indeed long cylindrical rollers: but there is absolutely nothing there to say that this was the original design for an axlebox. Indeed, the various visible parts of the vehicle into which that axlebox is fitted - such as the cast frame, the triple suspension, the coil springs, the unspoked wheel and the cast iron brake blocks - suggest something twentieth century, several decades after axleboxes were first used. --Redrose64 (talk) 21:41, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
- Your comments did not appear, but now they do. Peter Horn User talk 23:48, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
- By the way Car and locomotive cyclopedia 1970 shows on page 815 the method to adapt the journal box for the use of roller bearings (older editions show two pages) and on page 814 the tools to do this. Page 816 shows two classes of AAR style roller bearings which are pressed onto the wheelset. The side frames slip over the bearings. The Barber trucks pages show how everything comes together. Peter Horn User talk 00:12, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
- that picture may well be in public domain and well worth uploading. Peter Horn User talk 00:28, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
- By the way Car and locomotive cyclopedia 1970 shows on page 815 the method to adapt the journal box for the use of roller bearings (older editions show two pages) and on page 814 the tools to do this. Page 816 shows two classes of AAR style roller bearings which are pressed onto the wheelset. The side frames slip over the bearings. The Barber trucks pages show how everything comes together. Peter Horn User talk 00:12, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
- See also Talk:List of railroad truck parts#Similar but not synonymous above. Peter Horn User talk 15:40, 21 November 2014 (UTC) Peter Horn User talk 15:47, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
My next problem concerns the whole of the sentence "It was also used on steam locomotives such as the Victorian Railways A2 class, the LMS Garratt, the LSWR 415 class, and the GCR Class 1." First, the source given for this does not mention any of these classes - and only uses the term "steam locomotive" once - in a sentence "Speed has been the essence of railways since the first steam locomotive made its appearance in 1804." which does not mention axleboxes at all. Second, why pick out these three classes - did their axleboxes incorporate some innovative feature? If so, what was that feature? If not, why mention that specific class and not one of the thousands of others? Every steam locomotive of the twentieth century, without exception, had axleboxes, as did most nineteenth-century locos - apart from a very small number of experimental locos early on. The axlebox was in general use by the 1830s - they feature in such early designs as Stephenson's Planet type of the Liverpool & Manchester Railway - see this drawing. Even Rocket (1829) had axleboxes on the tender - see this drawing. Without axleboxes, the axle would not have been able to move vertically in the frame whilst still being constrained in the other two axes. --Redrose64 (talk) 11:19, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
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A mixup
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Hello Redrose64
We are talking about two (2) different images or files. The file shown on the left is a close-up, or detail of the file to the right in order to highlight a particular feature, namely the axlebox. Peter Horn User talk 14:06, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
- Correction @Redrose64: Peter Horn User talk 17:47, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
- I realise they are different images: and yes, I also realise one is a close-up of the other: that is precisely why I carefully selected File:Nordbahn-Wagen.jpg for my edit summary here, that is, to show that the axlebox depicted is not part of a truck (or bogie). The gallery has the somewhat generic title "Image gallery", so the implication is that it shows the subject of the article: bogies, or their component parts; this image shows part of a four-wheel rigid-frame non-bogie vehicle. Now, axleboxes in bogies are little different from axleboxes in rigid-frame stock; but surely it should be possible to find an image that shows an axlebox in a bogie? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 18:43, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
- There is already one in the gallery. I'm showing it here. Peter Horn User talk 23:07, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
- It doesn't just show axleboxes though; it also shows the wheels, bogie frame, suspension and bolster. Unless somebody is familiar with the term "axlebox", they won't know which component the caption refers to. I meant that it should be possible to find an image that shows a closeup of an axlebox in a bogie. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 08:40, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
- There is already one in the gallery. I'm showing it here. Peter Horn User talk 23:07, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
- I've tried to address that by revising the caption if that file. Peter Horn User talk 14:18, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
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