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Talk:List of people from Yorkshire

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Unreferenced additions to this article edit

Latest comment: 15 years ago8 comments3 people in discussion

Because of the disagreement that currently is associated with the long list of unreferenced material in this article, and the apparent edit-warring over its inclusion or not, I'm including all unreferenced material, below, in this list. The types of unreferenced additions fall into two groups:

  1. Those of people who are already dead
  2. Those of people who are still alive.

My reading of the guidelines and results of questions I have asked on various fora suggest that the two groups need to be handled slightly different, viz:

  • If the person is still alive, then WP:BLP applies, in which there is a strict policy in operation about unreferenced material which suggests it should be immediately removed from the article;
  • If the person is dead, it can be removed from the article, but it can also be tagged as in need of reference.

In terms of what the reference should be, my reading of the requirements states that:

  1. The reference should be a suitable citation of a reliable source which will verify that the person is (a) a real person, with (b) a real connection with the place whose article it is (which may need to be argued about in terms of its specification); and (c) sufficient notability to justify the inclusion isn such a list. More than one reference may sometimes be required to satisfy all this.
  2. The reference must be a real, direct reference, and the presence of a wikipedia article about the person satisfied NONE of the requirements for adequate reference (see this arcived question and responses here.

What I propose is done is to combine the two approaches that need to be adopted if the person is alive or dead into one in the following manner:

  • All unreferenced names are transferred from the main article to this section of the discussion or talk page. This then shows what names are in need of referencing.
  • Suitable references that satisfy the requirements, given above, are found for what entries editors can find given their time and other abilities.
  • If suitable references are found, their name is struck out of the lists here, and the name is reinstated in the main article, together with the referencing.
  • If names are transferred which still have insufficient verification, they are simply reverted in the main article with the striking out in this list removed.
  • If new names are added that have insufficient verification attached, then they are transferred from the main article to the relevant subsection here, and are then available for others to attempt to verify and place back in the main article, as described above.

This would seem to satisfy all sides of this dispute, and it is a solution I and others have made use of quite successfully on a number of other articles, such as Warrington, Frodsham, and Macclesfield, and it clearly gives a signposted and structured way in which an article can be gradually improved.  DDStretch  (talk) 15:27, 21 December 2008 (UTC)Reply

I'm not sure what you mean by "the presence of a wikipedia article about the person satisfied NONE of the requirements for adequate reference"? Note that the consensus AFACIT is only that Wikipedia itself can't be used as a source. If the article itself has a reference for the location, then that's fine - the question is whether the reference needs to be repeated here as well, for which I don't believe there's any consensus (although if someone thinks it should, there's nothing stopping them copying the source across). Mdwh (talk) 15:36, 21 December 2008 (UTC)Reply
Sorry if I was unclear. What I meant was that editors should not think that linking the name in a list to a wikipedia article is at all saisfactory, even if that article which is being linked to contains references that would justify the inclusion of the name in this list. Instead, the references should be used anew in 'this list. Does that make it clearer? Altrhough it is related to the idea of "Wikipedia cannot be used as source" it is a slightly different case to it, though its influence on actions may be the same: i.e., the references must be included in this article, no matter whether they also occur in the person's article on wikipedia or not. If that runs counter to what you believe, then sorry, but you may need to change your interpretation of the guidelines, and I invite you to take the matter up with the relevant expert editors on Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources, where I asked the question and got the advice (link to archived questionand answer given above.)  DDStretch  (talk) 15:43, 21 December 2008 (UTC)Reply
I checked out the link, and I can't see a consensus that they must be copied across? Blueboar stated "Consensus is actually mixed about this." and gives his opinion of "the citation does not have to be repeated, but it probably should be." I agree there's no harm in repeating the link - but it's better that than delete everything that doesn't have the link copied across. Mdwh (talk) 16:55, 21 December 2008 (UTC)Reply
And note that I haven't said anything should be deleted: it should just be transferred to the talk page pending verification. If verification cannot be found at all, then it should probably be deleted. See my response on the deletion discussion page for more about this.  DDStretch  (talk) 18:27, 21 December 2008 (UTC)Reply
I'm going to strike out the people on the list here as they are referenced and moved back to the main list. --Kaly99 (talk) 07:34, 22 December 2008 (UTC)Reply
Good. That's what I've suggested should be done.  DDStretch  (talk) 08:37, 22 December 2008 (UTC)Reply
Yeah, I should have really read through the whole discussion above before commenting, I've now read it all :). --Kaly99 (talk) 23:09, 22 December 2008 (UTC)Reply

Saints edit

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Writers edit

*Ted Hughes, former poet laureate

Artists and sculptors edit

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Miscellaneous edit

Removal of referenced material edit

Latest comment: 15 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Please can people referenced as from Yorkshire not be removed from the article at least while the deletion debate is continuing. --Kaly99 (talk) 07:40, 23 December 2008 (UTC)Reply

Inclusion criteria edit

Latest comment: 15 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

I've added some inclusion criteria that reflect which people this list currently covers. Any comments are welcome. --Kaly99 (talk) 08:09, 23 December 2008 (UTC)Reply

I've changed it per our naming conventions. Please also note:

We should use the current, administrative, county. We do not take the minority position that the historic counties still exist with the former boundaries. We should mention historic (or ancient) counties in articles about places and in references to places in a historic context, but only as an afternote. This approach is consistent with most local and national government literature, some private sector literature, will be familiar to most readers and writers, and indeed the approach will apply even if boundaries change again. It is also consistent with other encyclopedias such as the 1911 Encyclopedia, which specifically calls Cromarty a 'former county'.

— WP:PLACE
Lists of people at lower, modern units (say, boroughs like other parts of England), would not only be more managable, more useful to readers, more suitable to add to settlement class articles, but actually inline with policy. That there is a list of people from Yorkshire beyond 1974 (or even 1889) does not reflect the realities of civil registration (a system that uses modern units).
Simillarly, that there is a List of people from Leeds means we don't need wholesale duplication here, at a West Yorks list, northern England list, England list or a United Kingdom list. The Kaiser Cheifs are from Leeds, West Yorkshire. That a source uses "Yorkshire" doesn't make it real, or helpful to repeat the mistake here. See also WP:SYNTH.
Even that all said, a List of people from Yorkshire is going to have thousands of entries - if we're having a fresh approach here it's time it was split from the outset to ensure it is properly organised. --Jza84 |  Talk  16:00, 23 December 2008 (UTC)Reply


One of the reasons you gave when you nominated the article for deletion was lack of references it is not helpful in addressing this concern if you remove content I have spend time finding references for from the page.
The naming convention also states

generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense and the occasional exception

— WP:PLACE
The active deletion discussion is currently considering, among other things, how WP:PLACE should be applied to this particular article. If the article is not deleted at the end of the discussion and no consensus for who should be included in the list appears then the discussion can be continued here but please do not remove sourced material at this point as it is not helpful to the process.


I've reverted the lead to the original version, please don't remove the reference content from the lead. --Kaly99 (talk) 20:20, 23 December 2008 (UTC)Reply

Reference edit

Latest comment: 13 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

There are a number of entries that have been added using the same reference[1] but I guess that most of them are not in that reference but people are just copying from an existing entry. I tagged one entry last June as failing verification. Has anyone got access to this source, the snippets on Google Books is not much use for this purpose, to verify if these are actually listed in the reference and to give a page number for each entry. May be if we cannot do this then all entries using this reference should be removed.

References

  1. ^ A Yorkshire Miscellany By Tom Holman, p. 168 quoted at Google Books

Keith D (talk) 21:45, 31 January 2011 (UTC)Reply

Eric Portman edit

Latest comment: 10 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I currently lack the ability to add this Halifax actor to the article. Here's a reference:

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/yorkshire-living/arts/cinema/eric-portman-forgotten-movie-idol-1-6379801

--TS 08:28, 20 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

External links modified edit

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion edit

Latest comment: 4 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion edit

Latest comment: 4 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

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