Talk:List of operas by Gioachino Rossini

Il vero omaggio

This was listed as a 'role' on the Filippo Galli (bass) page and I spent a while looking for subtitles before checking under cantatas. Why exactly do we have two lists for Rossini?  %-( Sparafucil (talk) 06:11, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand. If Il vero omaggio isn't an opera then it shouldn't be listed here. --Kleinzach 06:50, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

I wanst clear enough. Most composers have a single subpage, a "List of works". The easy way to find Il vero omaggio would have been a wiki-wide search, but a lot of people would look within the article first.Sparafucil (talk) 07:11, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, Rossini has one. See List of compositions by Gioachino Rossini. --Kleinzach 07:24, 19 March 2009 (UTC) PS Incidentally it could benefit from some editorial attention. --Kleinzach 07:29, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Ach, we're still talking past each other. That list puts the stage works on a separate subpage instead of including everything in one place. Sparafucil (talk) 07:49, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes. that's perfectly normal, see Wikipedia:Splitting. Can you please indent so the discussion is properly threaded? --Kleinzach 08:18, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Renaming

This renaming (i.e. including Gioachino) doesn't follow the style of the Category:Lists of operas by composer — assuming that a second Rossini hasn't been discovered! --Kleinzach 08:31, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Robert Bruce

Louis Niedermeyer tells me that he collaborated with Rossini on a pastiche called Robert Bruce (music by Rossini, French texts by Niedermeyer). Can this be confirmed and added in? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:23, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

I wonder if this is reliable. Robert Bruce is not listed in Opera Grove. Note that we are including the pastiche Eduardo e Cristina and Rossini did of course often borrow from his own works. By the way, the source used by Louis Niedermeyer gives the date 1846. Maybe the work is really by Niedermeyer? --Kleinzach 22:27, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm about to retire for the night, but will be able to shed light on Robert Bruce tomorrow - watch this space! --GuillaumeTell 01:47, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

OK, here we go. After Rossini's arrival in Paris in 1843 (for medical treatment), he was visited by Léon Pillet, the Director of the Opéra, who invited him to compose a new opera for the house. Rossini declined, but pointed out that La donna del lago (1819) had been neglected and would go down well with the French. Rossini went back to Bologna, where he was again visited by Pillet, who was accompanied by librettist Jean-Nicolas van Nieuwenhuysen, pseudonym Gustave Vaëz, and Niedermeyer. The result (which apparently also involved Alphonse Royer as co-librettist) was Robert Bruce, an elaborate pasticcio, based on La donna del lago but including music from Zelmira, Bianca e Falliero, Torvaldo e Dorliska and Armida. Rossini was clearly involved in the collaboration but did not attend the premiere in Paris on 30 December 1846. It was a moderate success but was the subject of much criticism from Berlioz, among others. Paul Barroilhet sang the title-role. Info from Osborne, Richard (1986). Rossini. London: Dent. ISBN 0-460-03179-1. AmadeusOnline's Almanacco has more details here. Hope this helps. --GuillaumeTell 22:35, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I assume this means it shouldn't be listed. Is that right? --Kleinzach 23:26, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Oh, why do you assume that? I was just stating the facts that I derived from Reliable Sources. In what way does it differ from Eduardo e Cristina and Ivanhoé? --GuillaumeTell 01:23, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Hmm. I was posing a question, not giving an opinion. It boils down to this: who did the pastiche? If the pastiche is by Rossini then yes, indeed, it would be the same as Eduardo e Cristina etc. (Philip Gossett (in Grove) apparently thought the answer to this was in the negative, hence it was not included in his list.) --Kleinzach 02:10, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, on reflection, it clearly isn't the same as Eduardo e Cristina, which did contain some new music by Rossini. However, it is virtually the same as Ivanhoé, which appears in this list but not in Gossett's. Richard Osborne, in the List of Works at the back of his book, puts the two in a separate section entitled "Works derived from Rossini operas with the composer's participation". Therefore, to be consistent, you need to include both or neither. I think I'd vote for both.

I've half a mind to create an article for Robert Bruce (of which there is a recording with a respectable cast, I see) now that I've done all this work! BTW, Royer (not Reyer as misspelt by Osborne and probably corrected in the recent revision which I don't have) and Vaëz both have entries in Grove Opera, so I'll do them as well. (They wrote the libretto for La favorite.) It's clear that the adaptation of the music was mainly done by Niedermeyer (and Grove implies that he contributed a bit himself), but what we don't know is the extent to which Rossini was involved. Grove says that he and Rossini had "a lasting friendship" which dated back to Naples. --GuillaumeTell 11:12, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Good. I think that's now clear. I 'vote' for the Richard Osborne solution - a separate section entitled "Works derived from Rossini operas with the composer's participation" or similar. That way they can be included, but not as bona fide Rossini operas. --Kleinzach 23:57, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Fine by me. I'll get the Robert Bruce article up tomorrow. --GuillaumeTell 00:21, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Brilliant. This is how WP is supposed to work. Well done, ragazzi. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 07:44, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I should have mentioned that I came across the Niedermeyer reference in my search for more entries for List of historical opera characters. I'm assuming the "Robert Bruce" in question was Robert the Bruce. No? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 07:47, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that's him, actually Robert I of Scotland in wikipediaese. Two more historical characters, Edward II and Black Douglas also appear - see User:GuillaumeTell/Stonebox#Roles where I'm working on the article. --GuillaumeTell 12:01, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

I've added a new list - with Robert Bruce included. Did GT do an article after all? I can't find it. --Kleinzach 00:55, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

It's still in the state it was on the 19th (I'm just back from London). I'll add the stuff I quoted above and move it out of my subpage later today. --GuillaumeTell 17:29, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Well done for creating Robert Bruce (opera), GT. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 09:07, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. That isn't quite the end - I'm planning to include a synopsis based on the Italian translation! --GuillaumeTell 14:41, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Aureliano in Palmira

R Osborne in Grove gives the librettist as Romani. I removed the painter Giovanni Francesco Romanelli as spurious, by now I see we have another Romanelli, (Gian Francesco) given as librettist with a ref. to Romani as erroneous. Can we get to the bottom of this? Is there proof it wasn't Romani? --Kleinzach 05:18, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

The Grove Opera article on Romani (by John Black) includes A in P. At the time, he was La Scala's house librettist. The lengthy footnote 3 in the article here seems to me to confirm that Romani wrote the libretto, possibly in collaboration with previous house librettist Luigi Romanelli. --GuillaumeTell 17:32, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Lindner's 1999 article makes it clear that there is not enough information to settle this question. Perhaps we should refer the reader to Aureliano in Palmira in the footnote here. --Robert.Allen (talk) 20:27, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Thank for helping with this. However the intro of the Aureliano in Palmira seems to be suggesting that two Romanellis worked on the libretto. I've asked about this on the talk page. --Kleinzach 03:47, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Like GuillaumeTell above, I have found one Italian libretto website that credits Luigi Romanelli as the librettist. --AlanPalgut (talk) 22:03, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Wiki's insistence on original language titles

I came here to compare the list of works with those I've already seen. On English wiki, I believe such lists should be in English, as the operas are popularly known anyway. Any chance of a policy change? (Unlikely!)

--Darkhawk —Preceding undated comment added 22:48, 15 November 2011 (UTC).

See Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera/Article guidelines#Operas: original vs English translation. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 06:16, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

These days the advertised titles are typically in the language of the performance (I suppose to indicate which language will be used.) PS-New Grove Opera, on which this list was probably [originally] based (although it is not referenced), uses Guillaume Tell, not William Tell. The latter is what we use for the article, i.e., William Tell (opera). That's inconsistent. (Consistency is for small minds?) --Robert.Allen (talk) 08:56, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Is there some reason English translations of the titles could not be appended in square brackets after the original titles, other than the inevitable obligatory objections from tightass wikinazis? "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." (Emerson) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.20.97.124 (talk) 13:39, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

If you want to know what the English translation of any of the titles is, all you have to do is to click the title in question. This will take you to the top of its article, where the English translation follows the Italian title. --GuillaumeTell 22:44, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

location of autographs

Hi all, in the individual listings of Rossini's operas on the Italian wikipedia pages, there is a separate category for the autograph, which tells you its location See for example Demetrio e Polibio where it is listed as "perduto," and il Signor Bruschino which lists the Bibliothèque du Conservatoire. I tried to figure out a way to add an "autograph manuscript" column to each page, but either it's something that's controlled by a higher-up, or I can't figure it out. This kind of information is highly valuable to Rossini scholars. Any suggestions? Anthonybarrese (talk) 17:50, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Without a link to an online copy of the autograph, such information is not very helpful and would need references for verification. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 01:30, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

All of the current critical commentary of the critical editions of the works of Rossini contain such references, and I'd be happy to go through them to verify. Most of the autographs are housed in Pesaro, but none that I can think of have digital copies available online. The Fondazione tends to jealously guard them. Like I said I'm happy to go through the critical notes of each edition, but if it is deemed not helpful then that's cool. Anthonybarrese (talk) 11:23, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Frankly, the information at it:Il signor Bruschino under "Autografo" is not useful in any sense. I can't think how that information would be useful for any reader of this list, and it seems a lot of work for very little gain. Maybe the Fonazione has a web page summarizing that information; if so, that could be mentioned overleaf. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:05, 26 February 2021 (UTC)