Talk:List of current state leaders by date of assumption of office/Archive 7

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Archive 7

For upcoming leaders, change taking office date to 'TBD' if unknown?

Under the upcoming leaders list, when the date a given leader is going to take over is unknown, the default is to put the current month there. However it's clear for example that despite the fact that it says September next to their names, Aziz Akhannouch and Najla Bouden Romdhane are very likely not going to take office in September at this point. It also doesn't make sense to keep putting the current month in cases where it seems likely that government negotiations will continue for several more months. I would propose using a more general convention here instead - using 'TBD' is my suggestion, but other options include 'Unknown', 'Pending', 'Upcoming'. (Or perhaps the month can still be used in cases where the exact date is unknown but it's clear that the leader will definitely be taking office within a matter of days.) Lbynch (talk) 20:55, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Formal name vs Common name

@Therequiembellishere: does have a great point. Why do we go with the formal titles, rather then the common name titles? in this article. GoodDay (talk) 21:30, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

It was something done totally unilaterally back in 2013 on the basis of the UN protocol list with no regard for the fact that a stuffy governmental protocol has nothing to do with common use for a public encyclopedia. It happened at the same time at the list of heads of state and gov, where I called it a bad decision then and it remains one now. Therequiembellishere (talk) 22:51, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm in agreement. We should follow WP:COMMONNAME on this one. When was the last time in english print, did we see the Spanish prime minister described as the "president of the government", for example. GoodDay (talk) 22:55, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Indeed, or the Polish and Italian PMs as "President of the Council of Ministers"? It's totally ridiculous pedantry. Therequiembellishere (talk) 22:57, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Also, if/when other people feed in, this should also apply to the other page too. I forget how to crosspost discussion, do you remember? It's been a while lol Therequiembellishere (talk) 23:01, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

No argument from me. If you choose to make the changes from formal to common version on this & related articles? I won't object. PS - I don't know how to crosspost. GoodDay (talk) 23:03, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Saint Lucia

Is the acting governor-general of Saint Lucia, named Errol Charles or Cyril Charles? Related articles have him named Cyril. I don't know which is the correct one, but we do need consistency. GoodDay (talk) 19:40, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Prime Minister of Sweden

Apparently she hasn't been chosen as the next prime minister yet. See her bio page. GoodDay (talk) 21:09, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Who's the prime minister of the Czech Republic?

Somebody please enlighten me. There's inconsistency here & on related articles. GoodDay (talk) 20:42, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Queen Elizabeth Issue: it was previously decided upon

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_current_state_leaders_by_date_of_assumption_of_office/Archive_4#Elizabeth_II

This is the previous discussion in Archive 4 of this talk page on the Elizabeth II issue; The issue is settled then more than 5 years ago. Let's not suddenly change this format without at least a discussion on this simply because of the change regarding Barbados. Thus I'm reverting it to the previous format, less we have a proper discussion again. Before that, I urge anyone who want to change the consensus to review the link above over the previous discussion and how it was settled. --WeifengYang (talk) 01:38, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Are you speaking about the edit made by @Peter Ormond:, on 30 November? GoodDay (talk) 01:50, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Yep it seems like it. --WeifengYang (talk) 02:37, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Huh @GoodDay: Just found out you participated in this previous discussion, offering my gratitude here to a veteran editor. --WeifengYang (talk) 03:05, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, nearly six years ago. Wow. GoodDay (talk) 03:06, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Sandra Mason

Her assumption date should be changed to November 30, 2021 when she becomes president of Barbados. Why? because the presidency is not a continuation of the governor-generalship. This isn't a regent/monarch situation. GoodDay (talk) 22:16, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

She is exchanging one office for another without a separation in time between the two, as explained in the introduction to this article.– Jwkozak91 (talk) 07:24, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

That's still not the same as a regent becoming a monarch. The Barbadian presidency is replacing the Barbadian monarchy, not the Barbadian governor-generalship. GoodDay (talk) 07:28, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

She is still the same person. The monarchy/head of state is being patriated/brought back to Bridgetown from London.– Jwkozak91 (talk) 07:50, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

In disagreement with you on this one. If it were Elizabeth II who was becoming 'president of Barbados'? I'd go along with it. But what we have here is a 'representative of one head of state', become an entirely different head of state. We may have to open an RFC on this, as this is a 'new' type of change over, for this article. Unlike a regent-monarch or acting president-president situation. GoodDay (talk) 15:38, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Sandra Mason will still be in a national-level office for Barbados, and will not be out of a national-level office by more than 1 day.– Jwkozak91 (talk) 23:34, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

But she's changing from a representative of one head of state, to becoming a head of state. Anyways, I'm not going to 'edit-war' over it, when Barbados becomes a republic. Just noting, we're setting precedent for this article, as this is (AFAIK) the first time (since the article's creation) that a country is changing from a commonwealth realm to a commonwealth republic. GoodDay (talk) 23:42, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

I concur with GoodDay, not least because this almost reduces the momentous change of Barbados' constitution. Sandra Mason is head of state (i.e. State Leader) only from 30th November 2021. A note should be added that this was preceeded by a period as Governor-General, but in that role she was clearly not State Leader, else why change the role? What is says in the introduction is "For leaders who held the same office prior to their state's independence, the start of their tenure is used, not independence." She changed role, ergo this does not apply.Hoffie01 (talk) 08:30, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

I think a potential RFC is good on this; just so the folks here know, I'm currently slightly on keeping it as it is now, given the standard in regards to other scenarios; three most prominent examples of this issue is Ali Khamenei, Shavkat Mirziyoyev, & Paul Biya. Both were in an inferior position directly before assuming the top position (For Khamenei, President from 1981 to 1989 then-Supreme Leader from 1989; for Mirziyoyev, PM from 2003 to 2016, and President from 2016, and for Paul Biya, PM from 1975 to 1982, then president since. ); and this list still but the assumption date for both from 1981, 2003, & 1975 respectively. If meaningful political change is what we seek for consistency, we will have problems running in with these figures as well. I personally see great benefit for introducing some new rules that can reflect actual assumption of power dates though, as it will reflect the dates in a much more accurate sense; but I so far cannot see any good alternative in the sense of consistency as we have at the moment. WeifengYang (talk) 10:01, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

I should point out in Mason's situation, her previous office no longer exists. GoodDay (talk) 14:45, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

@GoodDay:noted. I do think if there’s interest in this there should be a discussion on how to set a new standard given the rise of this new scenario, and the potential for similar scenario arising in the future given the potential of more Republican change in the Caribbean (Jamaica being the most likely next one).WeifengYang (talk) 00:14, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Indeed, an RFC would seem required here. In future, more monarchies may become republics & indeed republics might become monarchies. The latter hasn't occurred yet, concerning members of the Commonwealth. GoodDay (talk) 00:18, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Consider merging "prior to 1990" with 1990s?

I feel like it might be a good time to merge "prior to 1990s" and 1990s together as "prior to 2000"? Right now, the 1990s has 12 entries, whereas Prior to 1990 has 26; if they are merged, that'll be 37 entries. Which comparatively, is about the number with other entries header: 2021 entry has 81 titles (which granted is not separable and probably should not be considered in this discussion), 2020 with 51, 2019 with 53, 2018 with 36, 2016-2017 with 51 (30 for 2017, 2016 for 21); 2010-2015 with 61 (16 for 2015, 11 for 2014, 17 for 2013, 9 for 2012, 4 for 2011, 4 for 2010), and 2000s with 26.

Just for the record, previous significant mergers happen here: (14 December 2020, creating the "prior to 1990" super header:) https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_current_state_leaders_by_date_of_assumption_of_office&oldid=997603276

and here (20 March 2021, the on results in the current header format): https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_current_state_leaders_by_date_of_assumption_of_office&oldid=1013321783#2016%E2%80%932017 WeifengYang (talk) 03:48, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

any updates, folks? --WeifengYang (talk) 09:52, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

@Jwkozak91: Since you have made the last attempt at merging, I would like to consult your opinion on this. Thank you. WeifengYang (talk) 08:17, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Given a month has elapsed, I will make the change now. WeifengYang (talk) 23:46, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Unnecessary hidden tab

I understand these are not shown but in the "upcoming leaders" tab some of the ones I just cleared are pretty unnecessary, such as Prime Minister of UK; I understand anticipation when government collapse or incoming election, but there got to be a limit to it, and when "Kherson People's Republic" head is even popping out that's gone a bit too far. --WeifengYang (talk) 05:38, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

Abdullah II of Jordan

Though I'd rather we didn't include the regencies. Since we are doing so, I'd like to point out that Abdullah was 'regent' from Jan 25 to Feb 7, 1999. GoodDay (talk) 22:47, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

UAE's Mohamed bin Zayed Al Nahyan

Mohamed bin Zayed Al Nahyan go elected president of the UAE and I added him to this article but it was removed because he is listed above as de facto president in 2014 after the then president's stroke. I think that he should be listed in 2022 and not in 2014 because while he did essentially control UAE policy, that would be like listing Mohammed bin Salman as de facto king of Saudi Arabia. --176.58.192.143 (talk) 15:17, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

When Mohammed bin Salman becomes king, he will still be listed at 21 June 2017. That's how this list article works.– Jwkozak91 (talk) 05:55, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Two small changes to Elizabeth II

I'd like to propose two small changes to the entry for Elizabeth II; ordinarily I would go ahead and make them, but the page is protected. If a registered user could implement them, I would be very grateful. Firstly, the list of former realms in footnote 1 seems to start off in alphabetical order, then switch to chronological order part-way through. It should be one or the other for consistency. Given the article is chronologically based, I think that should be the order i.e. Pakistan first (ceased in 1956), Barbados last (ceased in 2021). Secondly, footnote 3 about each current realm is at the moment placed next to the word 'present', but it relates to the specific date given in each case, so should be next to the dates. 217.155.59.206 (talk) 09:21, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

It's currently chronological by date of independence. The page is organized by start dates. This note conforms to the rest of the article. Mtminchi08 (talk) 12:19, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Cook Islands and Niue

Shouldn’t this article include the leaders of Niue and the Cook Islands? N Panama 84534 05:05, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

No, because they're a part of New Zealand. GoodDay (talk) 05:08, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

They’re associated states of New Zealand. Palau is an associated state of the United States and that country is still included. N Panama 84534 05:17, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

It shouldn't be. GoodDay (talk) 05:36, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

It probably should, an associated state is definitively not a "part" of another state, they are sovereign and delegate powers. Totally silly to imply UN members under COFAs with the States "shouldn't be" here. There's an article at associated state that can be read to start learning more. Therequiembellishere (talk) 16:55, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Giorgia Meloni as upcoming Italian Prime Minister

I see that you indicate Giorgia Meloni as upcoming Prime Minister of Italy; I would like to observe that, even though it is highly expectable that she will be appointed to that position, there is still nothing official about that. The appointment of the Italian President of the Council of Ministers (Prime Minister) is up to the President of the Republic, following the talks with the presidents of the two houses of the Parliament and the leaders of the parliamentary groups. The first session of the new Parliament will be held on 13th October and probably the talks of the President of the Republic will start around the 16th; only then he will probably call Giorgia Meloni to form a new government and then we could indicate her as upcoming Prime Minister. Sorry if I am maybe too meticulous about that, but according to the Constitution of Italy there is not direct election of the Prime Minister and nothing is automatic about his/her appointment. Thank you! Congolandia.g (talk) 16:38, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo

This article says "President: 12 October 1982 – present".

However, Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo says "has served as the 2nd president of Equatorial Guinea since August 1979".

Also, List of presidents of Equatorial Guinea tells about 1979. Grillofrances (talk) 13:57, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Obiang was styled as chairman of certain military juntas prior to his "election" in 1982 as indicated in the list article you linked and in this article 13:35, 17 October 2022 (UTC) Shacharrz (talk) 13:35, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Venezuela

Why is the president of the Venezuelan National Assembly included in this article? GoodDay (talk) 04:51, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Because the 2015 National Assembly is recognized as Venezuela's only legitimate government body by most of the Western world (see Responses to the Venezuelan presidential crisis). 25stargeneral (talk) 04:55, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Bob Dadae

Why not keep Bob Dadae's inauguration date as Governor General of Papua New Guinea on February 28, 2017? Basically he was re-elected and was only 15 de jure days out of office due to its expiration. Governors who are licensed or who spend little time outside the exercise of their mandate may mischaracterize this list. Renan Rabbit (talk) 00:46, 17 March 2023 (UTC)