Talk:List of converts to Christianity/Archive 1

Archive 1: April 1, 2006 - April 4, 2007

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This article was nominated for deletion on 26 Mar 2006. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

This article was nominated for deletion on 5 Nov 2006. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

First articles for deletion debate

This article survived an Articles for Deletion debate. The discussion can be found here. -Splash^talk 18:27, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Barak Obama

Kerokou and George Weah were both born Christian, converted to Islam, then converted back. Should this be mentioned in parenthesis? "(Converted to Islam, then back to Christianity)" This is what it says for these people on the Converts to Islam page. Fkh82 23:12, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I dont think this is a valid case of conversion. Barakh was never raised as a muslim to begin with. At 2 he had little influence whatsover to even understand Islam or muslims.

Despite the above unsigned contributor's assertion, Senator Obama's parents were Muslim and he was converted to Christianity. The list isn't "list of converts to Christianity on their own volition at a late age," but rather it is "List of converts to Christianity." Senator Obama should be on this list, and I have re-added his name. 65.66.149.215 15:54, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, his mother was Christian, and his father was an Agnostic from a Muslim background; also, his stepfather from his mother's remarriage was a non-practicing Muslim. I think it's valid to include him on the list, however.--C.Logan 22:28, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I've removed Obama from the list. I've also removed the following quote, which an anonymous user added to the introduction: Barak Obama was never a Muslim, in his book he states that his father was a Muslim who later became atheist, his mother had no religious preferences and observed different religions, and he later became christian. There is an excerpt from his book on Time magazine on the October 23, 2006 issue where Barak Obama explains this. - I've moved this quote here, as I don't think it belongs in the article itself. David Cannon 04:35, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Barack Obama IS a convert from Islam to Christianity. Although not raised specifically religiously, and his father LATER became an atheist, he was a Muslim. He was circumcised as a Muslim, and his father was a practicing Muslim until he became an atheist. After graduating from college and while living in Chicago, Obama was baptized as a Christian in the United Church of Christ. Therefore, he is a convert from Islam to Christianity and rightly should be included on this list. See [| http://virginiavirtucon.wordpress.com/2006/12/07/can-a-former-muslim-be-elected-president/]. Accordingly, I have added him again. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.28.3.218 (talk) 23:32, 1 January 2007 (UTC).

There is an excerpt from Barak's Obama's book in Time Magazine's October 23, 2006 issue, where Barak Obama himself states that his father was a Muslim who later became an athiest, his mother was never a Muslim, and she did not follow any particular religion and was wary of any organized religion. His father divorced his mother when he was two and was almost entirely absent from his childhood so he obviouly did not have not have a great influence on his life. Barak Obama was never a Muslim to begin with, he himself has said that he was never raised a Muslim, just because he has Muslim sounding name does not mean he was a Muslim, so why do people insist that he was a former Muslim who converted to Christianity? Therefore he should be deleted from the list as a convert to Christianity from Islam and maybe be added to the list of Athiesim to Christianity if it makes you happy.

Unsigned contributor, you stated "his father was a Muslim who later became an atheist." So, Barack Obama's father was a Muslim. In fact, according to the cited sources, his father did not convert away from Islam until after he was born. He was initiated into Islam (he was circumcised as a Muslim). Under Muslim law, Obama therefore was a Muslim (see Who is a Jew? for the application of a similar cultural phenomenon on Wikipedia). When he was baptized as a Christian after college, he therefore became an apostate under Muslim law and converted to Christianity. Therefore, as cited, Barack Obama is a convert from Islam to Christianity. He rightly should be included on this list. And BTW, please sign your posts. 65.28.3.218 03:32, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

The logic above is ridiculous and wrong, In his book excerpt in Times Magazine, October 23, 2006 issue Barak Obama himself states that his mother was a former Christian who took him to church, a Buddhist temple, Chinese New years celebration and Shinto Shrines on Easter's and Christmas. His mother had the Bible, Koran, and the Bhagavad Gita, next to books of Greek, Norse, and African mythology. He wrote in his book that his mother taught him that religion was an expression of human culture, just a way to control the unknowable and understand the deeper truths about our lives. Barack Obama's father left him at the age of two, he himself has said his father did not have much influence on his life. He also states in his book that by the time his father met his mother he was a confirmed atheist, thinking religion to be so much superstition. This means that Barak's Obama's father was an atheist even before Barak Obama was born. So what you stated above about him being initiated into Islam by his father is completely false. According to Islamic law, one must accept Allah as the one and only god and accept Muhammad has His messenger (known as the shahada), Barak Obama never did that. Unless you can provide a respected and reliable source where he himself claims that he was a Muslim, because that website (virginiavirtuecon.wordpress.com) you posted does not seem reliable to me, I do not think that most people has even heard of that website, and that article in that website just has nonsense right wing neo-conservative opinions and viewpoints, it has no statements or analysis from Barak Obama himself, unlike the article I am using from Times Magazine, there is no point in adding him to a list as a former Muslim. I do not know why you insist that he is a former Muslim, maybe to use him as false Anti-Muslim propaganda (which is a tactic of many Christian missionaries) to convert Muslims to your religion, because he seems to be the only well known person on this list, but it is inaccurate and false to add him on this list and therefore his name and picture should be removed. I also do not know why you want me to see the Who is a Jew? article, Islam and Judaism are 2 different religions, although I have not read the article I heard that someone is technically Jewish if he/she is born from a Jewish mother, Barak Obama's mother was a former Christian, so I guess judging from your logic, Barak Obama was always a Christian to begin with. Also being a Muslim is not an ethnicity like being a Jew is. So stop pretending that you know about Islamic Law, because you clearly do not, and accept the fact that you are wrong. Its obvious to me that you only want Obama's name in the list as a propaganda tool to convert Muslims to your religion, because clearly no one else on the list is as famous as him. It shows that there is an hidden Anti-Muslim bias by Christian editors of this page. Wraith12 18:19, 3 January 2007 (UTC)Wraith12

Wow, I'm not quite sure where to begin with your comment, Wraith12. First of all, this article is not "a propaganda tool to convert Muslims to your religion," any more than List of converts to Islam, List of converts to Judaism, or List of converts to Hinduism are tools for conversion to those religions. Heck, I began the Hinduism list and reformatted the Judaism list so all the lists are standardized. They were never about converting anyone to anything. Instead, as has been said time and time again (see the bottom of this discussion page), these are excellent research tools for anyone trying to research people who had converted from one religion to another. The lists help the researcher find examples of other people similarly situated. People have diverse reasons for converting between religions; these pages provided nexuses for anyone resarching those reasons. All the lists have some fairly unsavory people. Also, I think that Carlos Menem, the former president of Argentina, is a more famous person than a US Senator from Illinois - perhaps not to Americans, but definitely on a worldwide scale.

All that being said, you really should review Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, Wikipedia:Civility, and Wikipedia:No personal attacks. Obviously, you have one definition of the "Who is a Muslim?" question. That's why I linked to Who is a Jew?. I know very well the differences between Jewish identity and Muslim identity. The allegory was not to suggest that traditional Sharia states that the two are the same, that the two are measured by matrilineal descent, or any other similarity; it was simply that there are controversies about both. Under Sharia, he who is born of a Muslim father, regardless of whether he is an apostate, is a Muslim. In Saudi Arabia, Iran, and many other Muslim countries, a person who converts to another religion whose father was a Muslim is considered an apostate (see Apostasy in Islam), and if found guilty of apostasy is liable to be put to death. Those countries consider any person whose father was a Muslim to be a Muslim, per traditional Sharia. According to their definition, Barack Obama was a Muslim when he was born. So, as in the Who is a Jew? question, there are a variety of answers. Under several theories, Barack Obama was a convert from Islam to Christianity. Apparently many people share this outlook about Senator Obama's birth and eventual baptism after he finished college. [www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1755649/posts], [1], [2], [3], [4].

So, in proper Wikipedian fashion, I propose a compromise. Barack Obama should be included on this list, but with a disclaimer saying that some people disagree with that characterization. Therefore, all viewpoints will be covered, and this truly will be NPOV. I have changed the article accordingly. 65.28.3.218 01:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

65.28.3.218, The sources that you provided were not neutral, nor were they reliable, you only provided nonsense right-wing, neo-conservative, bigoted, intolerant Anti-Muslim blog websites, Just like the website you posted earlier, none of them had statements from Barak Obama himself. It's seems to me that you have an Anti-Muslim bias considering you get your information from these sites. No Muslim considers Barak Obama to be an apostate because he was never born or raised as a Muslim to begin with. The definition of a Muslim, is a person who follow the religion of Islam, meaning one must believe in Allah as the only god and follow the teachings of Prophet Muhammad. Barak Obama never mentioned anywhere that he followed Islam, meaning that he used to believe in Allah and follow the teachings of Prophet Muhammad. Since Barak Obama's father was a Muslim who became an athiest, before Barak Obama was even born (as mentioned by Barak Obama), that means only he is an apostate and not his son. Perhaps Saudi Arabia or Iran, under their version of Sharia law, would put Barak Obama's father to death, which I believe is absolutely wrong and a horrible thing to do, but Barak Obama wouldn't be put to death in those countries just because he is the son of an apostate who happened to choose to adopt his mother's former religion. Under Islamic law there is no compulsion to convert to Islam, so Barak Obama would be free to choose any religion he wants. Barak Obama never said that he was a Muslim or followed the religion of Islam in his memoirs or any public or written statements so there is no reason to add his name and picture to this list. As I mentioned above his mother made him observe and be respectful of different religions, but never made him convert to any of them, because she was against any organized religion. I am not the only person who agrees that his name should be deleted from this, DavidCannon also removed his name from the list. I also see no point to have a disclaimer when its obvious that he was never a Muslim to begin with. Putting his name on this list would be false information and potentially libelous. Therefore its a closed case and his name should be removed. Wraith12 05:19, 5 January 2007 (UTC)Wraith12

Wraith12, please stop your personal attacks and uncivil language (see WP:Civility, and WP:No personal attacks). They are against Wikipedia policy. The Chicago Sun Times and Yahoo Answers are NOT unreliable, non-neutral, "right-wing," "neoconservative," bigoted, or intolerant. I used those websites to show that people have differences of opinion. I have nothing against Muslims and certainly have no bias against anyone. From your list of contributions, you haven't been on Wikipedia all that long, so let me explain to you that on Wikipedia, information needs a source to be included; if the source or information is disputed, that dispute need only be noted (see WP:Bio). That Senator Obama may maintain otherwise does not preclude the information from being included; if Senator Obama wrote in a book "I am Caucasian," but another source shows him being African-American, it can be included on Wikipedia that he is African-American, but should note that the information is disputed. In point of fact, your explanation of Sharia is only one of many opinions on the subject. This is not a "closed case" and certianly is not "libelous." In the United States and the United Kingdom, any information that may be reasonable (and despite your disagreement, this is reasonable) is not libelous (see libel for more information). I added a disclaimer. This is enough for Wikipedia. His inclusion clearly meets WP:Bio, and WP:NPOV. Please familiarize yourself with Wikipedia guidelines. And if you continue to make personal attacks and reversions against Wikipedia policy, a moderator will be called in. Thank you for your understanding. 65.28.3.218 06:26, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

65.28.3.218, I'm sorry if I offended you, but the information from the websites that you posted are not "reasonable" or credible because they are all blogs and opinions of random people, many of whom if you read what they posted, have no idea what they are talking about and many of them have Anti-Muslim bias. I could not open the Chicago Sun Times blog website, however blog and opinion sites like the one you posted such as Yahoo Answers, are not reliable sources of information. Although I do not know much about Wikipedia policies, I'm sure it wants accurate information in this site, not opinions. As I have said before, it is clear that Barak Obama was not a Muslim or a Convert from Islam to Christianity, and I am sure that any neutral person would agree with me, you have not given any reliable or credible source of information that proves your point, so I suggest you remove his name and picture from that list. Instead his name should be on another list such as from Athiesm to Christianity, because that would be a more accurate description of his former belief system. The same has been done for Tamsin Greig, who also has a similar situation, she is of Jewish ancestry, meaning either one of her parents or grandparents was Jewish, yet she was raised an athiest, she has been moved to that list, also Senator John Kerry's grandparents were Jewish who converted to Catholicism, does that mean John Kerry should be on the list of convert from Judaism to Christianity? I still do not understand your logic therefore I am removing Barak Obama from this list. Wraith12 07:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC)Wraith12

Okay, Wraith12, you just admitted, "I do not know much about Wikipedia policies." Well, then let me inform you that weblogs, especially those of reliable informational sources such as the Chicago Sun Times are used as citable sources on Wikipedia all the time. The fact that you, others, or even the subject himself might disagree with the information does not preclude its inclusion. ON Wikipedia. It only merits a disclaimer that people disagree. (See WP:Reliable sources, Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons, and WP:NPOV for more information). The information about Senator Obama was found in a major newspaper's blog and several often-cited other websites (Yahoo and Freerepublic). That is enough for its inclusion. You challenged the information, and I provided sources and included a disclaimer that some disagree. That is enough. I also have reverted the information about Tamsin Greig, thank you for alerting me to that. Her entry should not have been moved, and citations have now been included there, as well. Lastly, there are two differences between Senator Kerry's situation and Senator Obama's situation as to why Senator Kerry ought not to be included here (though if he did fit, I definitely would support his inclusion): (1) the ancestor of Senator Kerry's who converted was paternal, not maternal (see Richard Kerry for more information), so under Halakha (Jewish Law) Senator Kerry would not be considered Jewish; and (2) Senator Kerry was baptised as an infant by his parents (i.e. didn't convert), whereas Senator Obama was baptised by choice after he finished college and was working in Chicago (i.e. did convert). The disputed information has been cited to ensure compliance with Wikipedia information policies; a disclaimer has been inserted in order to ensure compliance with Wikipedia neutral point of view policies. That is enough. Please stop reverting the information. Otherwise, a moderator will be called in. Thank you. 65.28.3.218 15:37, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

65.28.3.218, I'm happy that you put up the (See WP:Reliable sources), because if you read it carefully, none of your sources meet the requirement of Wikipedia's reliable source policy, considering that most of them have extreme partisan and religious viewpoints and none of the blogs actually references any reliable sources of where they get their information. The reliable source article says that messages left on blogs should not be used as sources, and partisan and religious sources should be treated with caution, and extremist sources that are political, racist, and religious in character such as islamanazi.com, theinfidelsage.blogspot.com should not be used as primary sources they should only be used as sources about themselves and their activities, and even then should be used with caution. I also could not open your link to the Chicago Sun Times, but the website says blog.suntimes.com, meaning its a blog site containing just opinions of random people which means it is not a reliable source. Barak Obama was never a Muslim period, if you read his biography he went to Christian school when he was a child, his mother has been described by most people as a secular humanist, and he has been raised as one. Your definition of Sharia law is wrong, because no where in the Quran or in other Islamic teachings, does it mention that if your father was a former Muslim, that means you are automatically a Muslim. In order to truly be a Muslim one must proclaim the shahada, which Barak Obama never claimed he did. Also according to many Islamic scholars everyone is born as Muslim, but then get influenced by parents or society to be a member of another religion. So technically using your logic and their's everyone is an apostate. The laws of Apostacy in Islam is not clearly defined, but Apostasy in general means when a person leaves one religion to be a member of another, Barak Obama never left Islam, since he wasn't raised as a Muslim, or been indoctrinated in Islam by any of his parents. Most of the viewpoints you have cited come from conservative Christian fundamentalists with Anti-Muslim bias who are no experts on Islamic law, some of whom claims that he is still a Muslim who is pretending to be a Christian, and therefore would not vote for him in a Presidential election. Why don't you put down the viewpoint of those who believes that Barak Obama is still a Muslim who is pretending to be a Christian? Obviously because those people are Anti-Muslim xenophobes who has no valid reasoning, just like the people who suggest that Barak Obama is a former Muslim. There is nowhere in the mainstream media where Barak Obama has been mentioned as a former Muslim, you only express opinions of bloggers, many of whom has an Anti-Muslim bias. I'm sure Barak Obama would not agree to have his name on this list either. His name and picture should be removed, call in a moderator if you want.Wraith12 19:21, 5 January 2007 (UTC)Wraith12

Obama went to a madrassa in Indonesia and he was raised as a Muslim for a while. Anyway we will have tow ait until we get another administrator becasue clearly the current administrator of this site views Obama converting to Chrisitanity as a victory of the neo cons which I have to say is pretty laughable. I am of the right and really wish that Obama wins. It is great to see a Christian convert from Islam become the most powerful person in the world. Obama for President!

65.28.3.218, Tasmin Greig should also have not been moved back either, her case is similar to that of Obama's her article says she was raised as an athiest, not Judaism, although she is ethnically Jewish and has Scottish ancestry, she probably never followed the Jewish Religion of Judaism, which are two different things. Therefore Tasmin Greig is not a convert from Judaism to Christianity, just like Barak Obama is not a convert from Islam to Christianity, both were raised in a secular or atheistic household, your interpretation of who is Jewish and who is Muslim is inaccurate. Although one may be considered Jewish if they have Jewish ancestry, doesn't mean they are apostates of the religion of Judaism if they were never raised in that religion. I suggest that you also move her back as well.71.62.121.16 03:52, 6 January 2007 (UTC)Wraith12

Felix Mendelssohn

Less arguable are Gustav Mahler and Arnold Schoenberg. The latter converted back but both were self-conversions. To the extent that conversion is an active verb (not sure of conflicting theologies, after all,) it should be noted that it was Felix's father who converted the family. I suppose one could take the fact that Felix did not attempt to renounce the imposed conversion as reason enough for inclusion (have wondered what to make of Die erste Walpurgisnacht opus 60 though!) but it's a debatable choice. Schissel | Sound the Note! 02:49, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Jewish people born Christian

There's just a couple articles that sound like this. For example Jakob Jocz says he "was a third generation Hebrew Christian." Is your grandfather converting mean you count as a convert? Also Alexander Men wasn't born Christian, but he was baptized at seven-months old. This isn't much different than if he'd been born Christian. Do you really convert at seven-months? His article puts him in the convert category, but categories aren't as well-maintained as lists.--T. Anthony 03:37, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Quite right. I have remedied the problem. 65.28.2.218 01:00, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Almost completely uncited

Wow. Given that for presumably a less controversial articles like List of British Jews there is a citation to show that each individual on the list is Jewish, it is remarkable to see no citations at all here for the supposed converts from Judaism, either that the person was ever a Jew in the religious rather than ethnic sense (since if they were raised Christian they are not converts) or became a Christian.

In particular, is there a citation to say that Osip Mikhailovich Lerner converted to Christianity? A category was just (anonymously) added to that article effectively asserting so, which is what brought me here hoping to find a citation. There is no mention of it in the article on Lerner, and he is known (among other things) as a Yiddish-language writer. - Jmabel | Talk 18:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Jmabel, for each person on any one of these lists, there is something in the article about them (or another article on Wikipedia) that states something about their conversion. I made sure of that when I revamped it. Hope that answers your question. 65.28.2.218 18:38, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

OK on Lerner. (& I'd written the darn thing a while back. Total spaceout on my part.) But the general principle of needing citation still stands. Policy (WP:V, WP:RS) is pretty clear that Wikipedia articles are not acceptable sources for other Wikipedia articles. - Jmabel | Talk 18:40, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Then cite away. =) 65.28.2.218 18:41, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I just did for the one I was concerned with. But it's really not my article (first time I've looked at it, as far as I remember). It's mostly a heads-up to anyone who cares to preserve the article. Anyone who wanted to would be entitled to remove most of the names as uncited, something that has happened to quite a few lists when someone decides to. In the case of this particular list, it's not my issue either way except insofar as I was trying to look something up. - Jmabel | Talk 18:51, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Deathbed Conversions

John Wilmot embraced Christianity on his deathbed, but he never converted, because he was already a baptised, even if nonpractising, Christian. Nor am I aware he ever "became" an atheist as such - he just had a very good time sexually with anyone he fancied and in utter disregard for the morality of the time, and didn't go to church.

Nuttyskin 00:27, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

St. Paul's "Conversion"

I don't think Saul 'converted', in fact, he designed his own religion which later became Christianity. --Vladko 01:49, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Jesus Christ

I would have thought that Christ may have got a mention since he was a Jew. And early "Christianity" could have been seen as mainly Jews who converted, or rather followed Christ's teachings of Judiasm. Christ introduced the notion that the Jewish Religion was not limited to Jews.

Error discovered and fixed

Aquila of Sinope was listed as a convert to christianity from judaism the fact is he is an apostate of christianity who became a jew.

Why is this worthy of an article?

What next? Can I, as a Wiccan, start a page listing all those who have converted to Wicca? The list would be 10's of thousands of lines long, at the VERY least! In addition, I have to say I find the purpose of this article repugnant. Namely, this is a "my religion is better than yours and to PROVE it I am gonna list all the SMART people who thought so, too!" page. Bill W. Smith, Jr. 22:36, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, a "List of converts to Wicca" would be a great article to have; I, for one, would encourage you to start it. I would, however, pose a caveat to your suggestion that it would be "tens of thousands of lines long." Neither List of converts to Judaism, nor List of converts to Christianity, nor List of converts to Islam contains an actual list of every single convert to the respective religion; as you suggest, it would be far, far, too long, and additionally I doubt that such an article would fit Wikipedia's purposes. Instead, all of these articles only include notable people who (for the vast majority) already have articles on Wikipedia. They function as a research tool - something that fits Wikipedia's purposes very well. For example, let's say someone is trying to research people who had converted from Judaism to Christanity, or vice-versa. This page, or its "converts to Judaism" counterpart, would provide a great resource. The prospective researcher easily could find subjects to examine further. I would also dispute the suggestion that the lists are an example of religious boasting; people who some find to be very unsavory are included on this list (as well as the other two lists). For example, I doubt that many fundamentalist Christians would be proud to have porn star Harry Reems on this list, or that orthodox Jews would be proud to have porn star Shy Love on the List of converts to Judaism. I also doubt that Muslims would be proud to have neo-Nazi supporter David Myatt or dictator Idi Amin on the List of converts to Islam. These lists are wholly viewpoint neutral, and they provide a valuable research resource. Lastly, I should note that this article already survived a VfD analysis intact: see the top of this page. 65.28.2.218 23:36, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. These lists are for notable people, not every Tom Dick and Harry. --Matt57 20:22, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Second articles for deletion debate

it seems that saying some one converted to christianity is a great temptation specially to say a muslim converted to christianity, no word can be sure without knowing the name of his mother and her faith as we see she was white and verry white acording to his writings was she a christian??? i dont know. if she divorced his muslem father when this guy was 2 years old! then christianity will have a cristal clear evidence that she can convert 2 year old children raised as christian!! the temtation cames from the name hussein as if this person born muslim raised muslim and lived islam then he decided to convert at 40 years old after too much studies! matter of fact he beleves in christianity becouse it is an easy non demanding cult that ask u ,to do non ,and think non,just say jesus christ he forgive u for raping !! why to think in what u dont care what it says! since u have not to folow any scripture offered by christianity not even the event of divorce!!! do we have a list of who converted to each other faith?

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.6.14.147 (talk) 18:24, November 9, 2006.

Hello. Please learn more about Christianity before ranting nonsensically here. Thanks!--C.Logan 20:45, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Djibril Cissé

This football player has publicly confirmed that he converted to Christianity. Stephane Berne in 2004 asked him that he was surprised to see that there were Muslims like Djibril who converted to Christianity. Djibril confirmed this but did not seem to want to go into details. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.0.132.225 (talk) 15:06, 5 December 2006 (UTC).

I searched long and hard all over the internet to find some proof of this claim, but the only indication that he had converted to Christianity seemed to be his Wikipedia article, which now no longer makes that claim either. If you can provide some source, then he ought to be included. Otherwise, without proof he shouldn't be on this list. 65.28.2.218 20:54, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

As this is unproven concerning Cisse converting to christianity can it be removed?

Ibrahim Rugova

From reading the article about Ibrahim Rugova, it said that there was rumors that he converted to Catholicism in his later life, so I added that his conversion is disputed since no one can be sure whether he actually converted to Catholicism, unless you can provide a reliable source that backs up that claim. 71.62.121.16 01:10, 4 January 2007 (UTC)Wraith12

Section headings poorly weight why they are notable and add undue weight to former religion.

Sorting by religion I feel is not a very logical order. I propose that the whole article be re-ordered by profession/notability criteria.

The reason the person is listed here is that they are notable in a field of endevour and they have converted to Christianity. They still retain their expertese in their field of notability but they now deem their old religion irrelevant or of little importance to them (for whatever reason) and yet we prefer to list them under that. It adds undue "negative" weight to the old religion. Another approach is to imply or claim a form of superiority of this religion over the other religion (i.e. the new religion "won" a convert and the old one "lost" a convert). Many of the people here had little choice in their former religion as the initial religion you have is culturally predicated.

As a simpler analogy if we had an article that was a List of converts to vegetarianism that listed notable people who are now vegan or vegetarian then almost certainly they would have come from an "omnivour" diet. All vegans or vegetarians I have met are very sincere in their new diet and it would be silly to list then under their former diet.

I propose that the whole article be re-ordered in line with how the List_of_Muslim_converts is ordered i.e. by profession/notability criteria. The former faith can be mentioned in the text entry for each person, if it is relevant. I will propose this for other similar articles e.g. List_of_converts_to_Judaism. Ttiotsw 19:45, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Christian or Protestant

Nowhere does it say if they converted to Catholicism or just to one of the heretical 'faiths' called christianity. It's all a load of bollocks anyway, your dead family members and friends are dead, just lumps of meat now, get over it.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.70.244.164 (talk) 07:02, 24 February 2007 (UTC).