Talk:List of cancelled Atari Jaguar games

Useful sources for the article

I'll leave links to websites hosting scans of magazines from back in the day, which is where most of my research of unreleased Atari Jaguar titles comes from. Hope this helps a lot!:

• ftp://fujiology.untergrund.net/users/ltk_tscc/fujiology/JAGUAR/
• https://www.yaronet.com/topics/97206-projets-homebrew-jaguar
• http://www.atarijaguar.co.uk/2016/03/atari-jaguar-uk-preview-booklet.html
• https://web.archive.org/web/20170302014748/http://justclaws.atari.org/jagudome/
• https://web.archive.org/web/20061202130245/http://www.jaysmith2000.com/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by KGRAMR (talk • contribs) 20:14, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
• http://forums.atari.io/index.php/forum/13-atari-jaguar/?prune_day=100&sort_by=Z-A&sort_key=last_post&topicfilter=all
• http://www.atarimania.com/
• http://www.retrovideogamer.co.uk
• https://www.retromags.com/
• https://web.archive.org/web/20000903001751/http://www.wheres.com/console/IntelligentGamer/feature/jaglair/lost.htm
• http://www.kultboy.com/index.php?site=kult/kultmags
• http://www.abandonware-magazines.org/index.php
• https://archive.org/details/gamemagazines?&and[0]=languageSorter%3A%22German%22
• https://archive.org/search.php?query=subject%3A%22MAN!AC%22
• https://archive.org/search.php?query=subject%3A%22MAN!AC%22&&and[0]=subject%3A%22Jaguar%22
• https://archive.org/details/videogamesde
• http://www.stformat.com/
• http://oldgamemags.ukprintarchive.com/Multi-format%20Publications/
• http://retrosprite.proboards.com/thread/6?page=1
• http://www.atarijaguar.co.uk/2016/03/atari-jaguar-uk-preview-booklet.html
• https://www.atariarchives.org/cfn/09/03/09.php
• https://archive.org/search.php?query=Gamefan%20Vol%201
• http://yescrew.atari.org/eng/links.htm
• http://www.retrovideogamer.co.uk/?topic=3632.15

KGRAMR (talk) 17:40, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

So you are admitting doing original research based on data from these sites. Then using the data from magazine scans, which may have been puff pieces given to the magazines by marketing, or even faked shots to justify inclusion. I also notice that, for the arlo game, you actually reference out to your own post on assembler games forum. So WP:OR and WP:CoI in one article. StraightDown (talk) 11:00, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Meh, believe in what you want. I actually did find out about that KO3 screenshot and it's true, somebody actually took a MobyGames screenshot as passed it out as a Jaguar picture but there's proof in CVG magazine that previewed Kick Off 3 for the Jaguar so it did exist and no, i ain't doing wp:or or wp:coi, as many of the info have been available for years on those magazines and old (and even dead) websites but sadly nobody gives 2 damns about them and people prefer to think in other stuff in regards to the system. From now on, i'll just link or reference where X or Y title was previewed, talked about or mentioned without putting at least a small description about it to at least give readers an idea on who has them of if something about it still exists or not. Again, believe in what you want. Once i'm done with this list i'm out of the Jaguar scene for good 'cause its just not worth it, people doesn't value what i'm doing for the system, since it's one of my favorite systems released by Atari...

KGRAMR (talk) 11:44, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

While I'm not 100% aware of the kick off 3 stuff, as its not even listed here. Looking at the CVG article shows the megadrive and SNES pictures, no Atari Jaguar - mentioned in the text though. Whoever circulated a mobygames picture as a Jaguar version really shouldn't be treated as an expert. As to the rest of your statement it shows that you are only putting the information on here to get validation of your contributions and not to actually aid people. You are doing it to get a buzz and perhaps recognition as an "expert" rather than altruistic reasons.

The response of "meh" also indicates that accuracy of information is not high on your agenda. You've not addressed any of the concerns and resorted to the "whatever" defence — Preceding unsigned comment added by StraightDown (talk • contribs) 00:24, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Check issue 149 of CVG, there's an Alpine dev. kit running Kick Off 3 on the Jaguar on page 23 and no, i ain't the expert on the Atari Jaguar, nobody is, i'm adding titles with the info i've found out thanks to old magazines, press releases & what's available on the not so i'm not doing anything wrong on Wikipedia.

KGRAMR (talk) 12:33, 19 March 2018 (UTC) So, to paraphrase, you are doing your own research (and as can be seen from the edits I've made today how accurate it's been), editing Wikipedia to reflect what you believe and don't see a problem with that. It's an example of WP:OR in case you didn't realise, this is meant to be an encyclopedia not a scrap book.

I also notice that a lot of your citations are either directly, or indirectly, to the same source - Kieren Hawken, who you are allied to on several forums, bringing both their validity and interpretation into question.

I'm sure you'll continue editing anyways, even after stating you would not, StraightDown (talk) 02:45, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Um what? Everything is related to Kieren? XD Seriously? Did you smoked something to think that literally everything i've linked and referenced is related to Kieren? Jeez, The Jaguar subforum of AtariAge really thinks weird things, don't they? Two references does have stuff by him or showing him but everything else? Jesus... I don't know what to say XD Anyways, once i'm done with the Atari Jaguar stuff on Wikipedia, i won't touch any of them 'cause it's not worth it for the likes of you and the likes of the Jaguar subforum on AtariAge ;) Aha, i'm friend of him so what's really the issue? I can't be a friend of somebody who has a special condition? Humans are truly a weird species...

KGRAMR (talk) 12:33, 19 March 2018 (UTC) I believe you've now gone into the conspiracy defence.

For the hard of understanding - apart from the links to YouTube videos many of the citations you made go to either announcements posted on forums by him e.g. the buggy ball link to http://gameon.freeforums.net/thread/136/buggy-ball-atari-jaguar , or to interviews carried out by him e.g. http://gameon.freeforums.net/thread/89/david-wightman-creative-edge

He also has an involvement in RVG magazine of course.

What I an saying is that a lot of the rumours and conjecture either use the same source, and play Chinese whispers as they get repeated or do not actually say what you think they do e.g. if you read the rebellion interview at no point does it say source code is available - he answers "probably in an archive... That would annoy I.T.". From that you have amended the article to say it is with them.

It's simply a failed console that doesn't need to be mythologised. StraightDown (talk) 08:03, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Once i'm done with this article, i ain't touching this list forever. So magazines are not reliable sources? Nor interviews or even internal paperworks for that matter? Man, i really regret creating this article.

KGRAMR (talk) 11:39 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Magazines can be reliable sources, publishers release dates and wish lists, that even the magazines themselves discount if you had actually read them and not just cut and pasted, are not.

For maniac the translation says its a wishlist and for the edge article it specifically states on page 34 that publishers release dates are unreliable. So no verifiable content, just an unreliable date that you have expanded to include your original research e.g. 40 percent complete.... Based on lynx game.. Etc. All off an unreliable date.

StraightDown (talk) 04:15, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Validity of citations

As has been evident from the number of deletions I've made that this, as well as numerous other articles edited by a particular user, that a lot of citations made are nothing but links to magazine scans. These scans, when you manage to track down copies, turn out to be nothing more than release lists, and so of no actual value beyond a curiosity. The interdependence of magazines, including being under same ownership, means that these should not be treated, to my mind at least, as of any value as a citation. In numerous instances the text attached to the list, or elsewhere in the magazines, actually have disclaimers to say they are unreliable. Question is: should these sort of citations be allowed? StraightDown (talk) 09:47, 22 March 2018 (UTC) StraightDown (talk) 09:47, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

@StraightDown: Since you're also adding info based on research by Ross Sillifant/Lost Dragon from the websites and forums he has been and the fact that you're in one of the forums he's in too, i say all your edits involves WP:COI as well, since you assume i work for Laird. There's veracity in what i've found, not vandalism as you're trying to suggest but to each on their own. I bet you don't do research properly. Ross at least does his research KGRAMR (talk) 22:11, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

@KGRAMR: you are aware that you have been using citations to places like unseen 64, assembler games, Atari io, gtw etc. Places the person you seem to resent so much has provided public information to. Are you seriously suggesting that people shouldn't use respected reference sites and instead use citations to free forums, posting information that the site creator believes true. You should read the what is a good reference article.

I probably do share a forum with "lost dragon", though I've not gone out of my way to look for him/her. All removals I've made are fully explained in the comments and I do not do original research.

What is not in question is you are associated with Kieren Hawken(?) as well as Wave 1 games. It mentions both facts in your interview article, that you are a very active member of a Facebook group JS3, that was set up by Mr Hawken as well as the wave 1 games link. That, to a neutral observer, would be prime [WP:COI] material.

You should also look at what you posted earlier on this page btw.

You also don't appear to have actually addressed this talk subject about citations but have just tried shoe horning in on the discussion. Much like the way you went on a spree earlier, adding links to the cancelled game article for games that had already been deleted - just short of vandalism.

StraightDown (talk) 22:42, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

In actuallity, i don't care anymore what Ross does anymore, not in the slightest. He can do whatever he wants. How many times do I have to state that the interview was done months ago before i stopped working for Wave 1 Games? Yes i'm active on one of the Jaguar-related groups in facebook but even when i was promoted to moderator, i just do my own stuff and i don't shadowban people like in other forums. WP:COI doesn't apply to me in the slightest. You can keep putting that but that doesn't apply to me. And people can check the list to see where such title was mentioned on its earliest form before you arrived to cause havoc. I really, really regret creating this article, this is probably one of my biggest regrets on Wikipedia... And BTW, i'm adding the tag of cancelled Atari Jaguar games + their sources on game articles related from the list not for vandalism but for accuracy but since you guys at AtariAge don't like me and assume i'm a bad person, you're acting with their agenda. I'm done with this list and talking here. Anybody is welcome to contribute here. KGRAMR (talk) 23:12, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

@KGRAMR: Shall we take your defence one piece at a time.

The interview may have been carried out months ago but it was at the time the changes were made. You may also notice you specifically said that YOU WORK FOR WAVE 1 GAMES in the talk page of the Atari Jaguar games list.

That was the 22 of March revision, after I pointed this out you went back on 9 April and changed it to read "Worked" instead (and that is why Wikipedia tracks all changes).

You do not deny that you, now as a moderator, on a forum founded by K Hawken (who must have made you a moderator BTW), have a working relationship with him.

The tag to Atari Cancelled Games you have attached to numerous games THAT ARE NOT PRESENT IN THIS ARTICLE. You have also incorporated low quality/reliability citations to the articles, cutting and pasting virtually the same text into each. Are you aware the cyberroach ones don't actually work for all titles? You also try linking to videos that are just under 2 hours long to justify inclusion of a title and link. The videos being nothing to do with the game themselves e.g. the busby interview to justify Hardball III. You may notice the creature shock one I fixed the other day.

I await your next "I'm not going to reply" reply, again not addressing any of the points raised.

StraightDown (talk) 23:30, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Extra table?

What is evident as I go through these citations is that more than a few of these titles do not exist as anything but design documents. These may or may not have been accepted for production and if not, how can they be called cancelled. These titles occupy an odd area, in that they should be recorded but not as cancelled games, more like games that never were. I'd suggest an extra table to capture these and remove from the main table. StraightDown (talk) 13:48, 16 April 2018 (UTC) StraightDown (talk) 13:48, 16 April 2018 (UTC)