Talk:List of best-selling manga/Archives/2023

مبيعات مانجا دراغون بول اكثر من 260 مليون

مبيعات مانجا دراغون بول الحقيقة 350 مليون Xadara (talk) 05:24, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 May 2023

There’s a big mistake Shūeisha published as an article in 2021 that Dragon Ball has exceeded 300 million sales — Preceding unsigned comment added by Matteodu9494 (talk • contribs) 12:36, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Dragon Ball

I think that the Dragon Ball sales should be updated Fleyzk (talk) 11:16, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Article is spreading misinformation

Circulation are not sales. Shueisha prints 3.2 million copies for each one piece volume but only sells 1.7 million for example.

Circulation can be padded and manipulated, actual sales are never disclosed. There needs to be a big clarification on this article as it's spreading misinformation. Name458172 (talk) 23:52, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Did you read the part that indicates: "Dagger glyph indicates the number of tankōbon copies a series has in circulation/print, rather than actually sold"? Xexerss (talk) 15:23, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 August 2023

Change dragon ball volume sales from 260 million to 350-400 million, as listed on its official main page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Ball (citations 112-116) 39.41.220.106 (talk) 03:39, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Wikipedia is not considered a reliable source as a citation. Lightoil (talk) 04:31, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

The Seven Deadly Sins and Four Knights of the Apocalypse

The cumulative circulation of both The Seven Deadly Sins and Four Knights of the Apocalypse is over 55 million copies.[1] How should we include this in the article? Should we consider both series as one and add up the volumes, or should we listing them as "The Seven Deadly Sins / Four Knights of the Apocalypse" or something similar? Xexerss (talk) 16:10, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Dragon Ball sold 350 million copies

Multiple official sources:

toei: https://www.toei-anim.co.jp/movie/2013_dragonballz/news/30.html

shueisha: https://i.gzn.jp/img/2009/03/21/db_kai/db_kai_04_m.jpg

oricon: https://www.oricon.co.jp/news/61072/full/

comicbook: https://comicbook.com/anime/amp/news/dragon-ball-akira-toriyama-eisner-award-nomination-2019/ 151.19.51.113 (talk) 21:29, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Clean up

For @Xexerss

Jigoku Sensei Nube's circulation includes the sequels: Jigoku Sensei Nube Neo & Jigoku Sensei Nube S; and the spin-offs: Reibashi Izuna, Reibashi Izuna: Ascension. I don't know how to add those notes and if we should include the volume count of each.

Some series, such as Blue Lock and Cardcaptor Sakura, have digital gylphs, presumably from previous sources, but the current sources don't mention digital. Should they be kept or removed? I'd assume that the digital sales are still included in the new numbers but just aren't specified. Similarly for Terra Formars, the previous source of 21m included the spin offs, the new one doesn't specify.

A lot of series use Manga Zenkan as a source. I personally don't have a problem with it, but I wouldn't say it's necessarily a good one, since it's just a compilation of circulation figures without any sources other than "We got these numbers based on our own research." So maybe we can find other sources for those series, or just keep that one if you're fine with it.

I think I saw you use a bot that adds archived links, could you do that here? There's a lot of sources, especially old ones, that don't have archives.

@Xfansd - just to clear some stuff up.

For Dragon Ball, I specifically added a glyph there because the original source for that 260m circulation figure, along with every other Japanese article that mentions it, specifically mentions that it's circulation. Every previous Dragon Ball update has also been circulation. So I'm assuming that there was just some mistake in translation for that to say sales. I don't care either way, but that was my rationale behind adding it.

For Naruto, I think you're looking at the wrong thing. At the near top of the article, in that big yellow box that you open by pressing "What is 'Samurai 8: The Tale of Hachimaru'" it says "Masashi Kishimoto is a mangaka of the hit title NARUTO, which boasts a cumulative circulation of over 250 million copies worldwide." I think what you're looking at is at the bottom where it says Masashi Kishimoto as a mangaka has sold over 250m copies, which would include all his other works.

In regards to any other glyph I've added, I have been checking every single source for every thing on the entire list, meaning that I've been staring at walls of text for 2 hours each time. So I'm sure it's possible that I've made a mistake somewhere, and you or anyone are encouraged to check them over. But I will say, if you're just using google translate to differentiate between "sold" and "circulation," for many sources it will translate to "sold" even when that is never actually said in Japanese. ManjirouEdits (talk) 08:35, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

That is what happened with the Naruto number. I noticed it when you re-added the glyph. I checked the first two, saw two English "solds" in a row that were changed, and recommended someone double check your work. I can't read Japanese and so didn't bother with the others. Can you reply to this with the Japanese words for 'sold', 'published', 'in circulation', and any others that are relevant? Not only myself, but it could help other editors. Translating is not always an exact equivalency. Google Translate is very noticeably not perfect, but your statements come across as having a weight of certainty with them. Can you say with confidence that those words are always used with those specific meanings and are not somewhat vague or otherwise interchangeable? For example, the One Piece ANN source states "In the past, Shueisha has used the Japanese term for 'published' in reporting its manga statistics, but clarified that these figures include both print and digital copies." Now I don't know the details of that clarification or where it took place, but if Shueisha had to make a clarification on physical and digital copies in Japanese, I suspect there's some vagueness on translating sold/print/in circulation into English. This article will never be perfect with every source explicitly stating if the number's sold or in print, or even if the amount is worldwide or Japan-only.

I don't know what you're referring to by "the original source" for the 260 million Dragon Ball number, there is nothing in the press release to suggest it isn't the original source. But speaking of the Dragon Ball number, I don't see why that one series is being held to a different standard than all the others listed. There are not one, but five reliable sources supporting that it sold/circulates 350 million. This articles was created, and still currently states it is, on series being listed according to the "highest" sales or circulation estimates by "reliable" sources. If a source is reliable, then we trust the number and it should be used. We don't say well this one with a different number is "more" reliable than the other five. Or this one with a different number is "official" because its by a company related to the massive multimedia franchise. Or even, this one is "newer" and therefore the smaller number it uses must be the correct amount, because again, it goes by highest estimate. Sales only go up, you will always be able to find a smaller number out there. Xfansd (talk) 23:06, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

In regards to some Japanese terminology:

発行部数 - はっこうぶすう "hakkoubusuu" - This is the Japanese word for circulation. One thing you can do if you want to find a number for any series is just google the series name in Japanese and copy and paste this word next to it and that makes it very easy to find Japanese sources.

累計 - るいけい "ruikei" - This means cumulative total. It's always placed right before the number. You may also see 全世界 or 世界 before it - these just emphasize that it's a worldwide number. I've never seen google translate fail to translate the worldwide part.

売る - うる "uru" - This is the word used for sales. You will mostly find it in this form (売り上げた) after the number. Sometimes it will be before the number in a different form, but as long as you see that one kanji "売" - you can safely assume the article is talking about sales. I've never seen any other verb used for sales from any articles on this list.

Now with many articles, they will forego the use of either the word "発行部数" or "売る." It will just use "累計" for "cumulative total" and then use a verb like "突破 - とっぱ" (This just means exceeded or breakthrough, it's a boisterous/celebratory way of just saying "This manga series reached this number") or you'll also see "超える - こえる" which also means to exceed/surpass (They also use these verbs WITH the aforementioned terms). There's some more but these are the main ones. If a sentence is just saying "This series has exceeded a cumulative total of 25m" just using "累計" and one of the verbs mentioned, google translate will often translate it as "copies sold" despite there being no verbiage or wording to imply they are talking about sales. "累計" in this instance, would be talking about circulation.

If an article ever includes digital copies it will say so. The word used being "電子 - でんし denshi" I have also never seen google translate fail to translate this. There should be no issue finding if a source includes digital copies or not. The digital market is a very recent one for the Japanese manga industry, so yeah, 20 years ago there would be no digital sales to report on anyway, only published copies. Digital copies ARE sales, but are included into circulation totals - it's still a circulation figure, not a sales figure, since digital copies can't be "published", just sold.

By original source, I was referring to the original Toei source used before the English one I found. The Japanese wiki for Dragon Ball also uses the word for circulation and another 260m source. In regards to your statements about the 350m source, there's a few things. I specifically updated the original Toei source to the newer one in English to keep it as up to date as possible, to help stop the onslaught of DB fans that occasionally come on here to post that 350m number despite its deprecated status and so they could actually read it and see it for themselves. Generally, the newer a source is, the more reliable it is. This is literally just part of Wikipedia guidelines. That older number comes from pictures posted on a blog from an event I believe was either in 2008 or 2009. And many reliable sources have used it in the past due to circular reporting. Just two years prior, the circulation was at 200m worldwide. Does it even seem plausible that it would jump by 150m in two years, when it wasn't even at its peak popularity? A few years later the number was 230m worldwide. And since then it's been on a stable and reasonable increase that coincides with today's numbers. For the past 15 years, reliable sources have been telling us every few years of the new circulation figures, there is no logical reason to take that very old obscure one from a Powerpoint presentation, that was most likely a mistake, to heart. There are definitely sources more reliable than others, and we certainly don't just use the highest estimate. A primary source with no fact checking could easily inflate their numbers. But again, we have multiple reliable sources for the 260m figure from Toei and others, even a 300m one for all spin offs and sequels included straight from Saikyo Jump. There is no reason to consider that 350m source reliable.

Although, this really wasn't what I was saying. I don't think the English Toei source is "unreliable" at all. I'm just saying that, considering all of the evidence, I believe the use of the word "sold" was just the mistake of a Japanese company publishing an English article. It could actually very well be that within the past year or two from the newer article to the previous, that DB did in fact sell over that 260m in that time frame, and the source was accurate. It could also just be a translation error. Again, I wasn't trying to apply a different standard specifically to DB. Circulation figures typically get released for a specific reason and don't just sporadically change from circulation to sales using the same figure. All signs pointed to circulation, that's why I added the glyph. It's really not a big deal, like I said, we can just wait for the next circulation update, which we're due for probably this year or next since they tend to update it every 2-3 years. It should be 270m and the JP source will most likely say circulation, or maybe even sales, and we'll revisit this then. I don't care if the glyph is there or not, I'm not going to fight about it. Just wanted to clean up the page since most people, including myself, forget to add the glyphs, and there were a lot missing, and I am very certain that DB is a circulation figure, not a sales figure. But again, we can just wait for the next update. It's honestly better that it's not there given the current source, since the fans might start attacking this page again if they noticed that, so it's good that you pushed back on it. ManjirouEdits (talk) 03:25, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Seems I can't reply to your newer comment, so I'll reply using your first comment here.

I believe I gave you exactly what you asked for in regards to the Japanese terminology used in these articles. I don't know of a single language where words always only have one specific meaning and are void of interpretation when considering context.

I definitely did not say that every single source for the 350m came from a PowerPoint photo. I'm not sure where you're getting that, but maybe I should've been more precise with my language. I was specifically referring to the literal picture of the PowerPoint presentation that people kept using as the source on this page. I said that many other sources have used that figure due to circular reporting. You haven't even given me any of the other sources you were talking about.

Oricon is indeed a premiere statistical company, who in 2016 stated that Dragon Ball had 240m in circulation and in 2022 stated that Dragon Ball had 260m in circulation. Sankei in 2015 said Dragon Ball had 230m in circulation. I linked you the "Age Matters" section of Wikipedia's guidelines in my original reply. These aren't MY guidelines, they are Wikipedia's. We can certainly argue that all of our data is wrong, nothing is real, and the only true and accurate information is exclusive to the CEOs of the companies in question. Should we delete this page maybe? You want reliable sources, yet the two you just repped in your reply are clearly showcasing unreliability, no? (And no, I'm not arguing that either publications are actually unreliable. Sometimes news publications can be wrong you know!) It's not really a "theory" that something is clearly wrong with that number when seemingly every new circulation update from said reliable sources contradicts it.

You seem to have a lot on your chest that maybe you should talk this out with someone a lot more experienced on this page than me! Like maybe the guy one who originally removed the 350m source in favor of more recent numbers. Literally all I was doing was adding missing glyphs. You had a problem with one of them to which I agreed to keep it off. I don't know why you even brought up the 350m figure since it had nothing to do with the topic at hand, and I regret even giving my opinion on it, even if the number itself is very obviously nonsensical. I don't think anyone here is holding any manga to a "different standard" - the same thing would happen with any manga on this list if a number from 15 years ago was superseded by multiple newer ones. I definitely agree with the magazine circulations, I don't know why those are there. Much like I don't know why notes for pirated copies were included at one point. But I don't touch stuff like that.

I would 100% add the Dragon Ball 300m figure from Saikyo Jump that includes DBS & all spin offs, but I personally don't like to make decisions like that and leave it up to the more veteran editors of this page. I don't think anyone would fight you on using that if you want to change it to the 300m one. You might enrage a lot of fans though when they see the sales/volume ratio plummet. But also, why use the one that includes multiple other series, when we literally have access to the original 42-volume series' updated circulation itself? That's not the case for the other series on the list. For some series, all we get are combined figures. I don't think there's actually a problem here like you're making it out to be. ManjirouEdits (talk) 05:15, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

I was asking if these words you use/listed have singular and specific definitions that are adhered to by the general Japanese populace and have direct English equivalents, therefore meaning they are not open to multiple translation possibilities. But translating aside, the decisive way you write the other stuff as if they are facts is startling. To just straight state that every source giving 350 million got it from a photo of a Powerpoint presentation is wild. Oricon is the premiere statistical company in Japan and Sankei Shimbun is one of the biggest newspapers in the country, they did not copy a fan photo that was circulated on the internet. You knock the five sources for the 350m number as being an instance of circular reporting (despite them being separated by some 10 years), but admit a primary source can inflate their numbers and then that having "multiple reliable sources for the 260m figure from Toei" strengthens support for that one. I can argue that is circular reporting. That is my whole point. Discussing these sources will almost always be nothing but people making theories to cast doubt on some of them, and they are theories because we will never have all of the information. That is why it should be kept simple, just use the highest estimates by reliable sources, and avoid a rabbit hole that has no possible end. The lead of the article explains this to readers so there's no misconception. This is Wikipedia, we are not claiming definitive, infallibility with what is listed here. I don't really edit this article anymore because it's gotten out of control, with notes for magazine circulations and averages created from original research, so I'm not gonna harp on this. But word it how you want, using the 260m number for DB when you've got other series listed by numbers that include sequels, digital, spin-offs and light novels, is holding one series to a different standard. Xfansd (talk)

Regarding JSN, I wouldn't mind if we add up all volumes of all those series, counting them as one, and instead of leaving it as 1993–1999 we leave it as 1993–2021. Regarding notes, take the Captain Tsubasa case as reference, which seems quite similar. Xexerss (talk) 04:40, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Okay, I think I did that well enough if you want to check it over. ManjirouEdits (talk) 06:26, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 October 2023

Kingdom has passed 100 million manga copies sold 2A00:23C6:2610:A401:38D5:AF69:AAB4:A802 (talk) 20:33, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done As per the source, that number is not accurate until the 70th volume releases next month. Link20XX (talk) 20:57, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Crayon Shin-chan's circulation

Its circulation has been updated to 148 million based on an AnimeNewsNetwork article from November 2023. This same article cites the website lasisa.net and this article. However, as far as I can tell, this website born in 2022 in not a reliable source of information and news and does not claim to be one. That same number of 148 million can be found on the japanese wikipedia page for the manga, this time citing an article from 2015. We can conclude that this number, if true, is old. The website in question is related to Bandai Namco, who does partner with Futabasha for some Crayon Shin-chan merch. But in 2020, five years later, that same website released an article with a number that was lower - 147 million copies. At the very least, this should make us question their reliability as a source for this topic.

On top of that, since then, no other official source has used that number. And in 2022, to celebrate the series' 30th anniversary, it was revealed on the official website of the anime that the manga had over 134 million copies in circulation worldwide, including spin-offs and other related books. This number lines up pretty well with one from 2021, one year earlier: 133 million according to prtimes.jp.

I think choosing a source that is more recent and closer to the publisher would be the correct way to handle the situation? Rouk' Hein (talk) 23:10, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

The same figure is also stated here (TV Maga via PR Times). According to their site, some of their articles have been featured in programs from Fuji TV, TBS and Nippon TV, which make them, at the very least, reputable in my opinion, but admittedly, I don't know too much beyond that. Xexerss (talk) 23:53, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Jujutsu Kaiden has hit 90 million in circulation

https://www.animeexplained.com/news/jujutsu-kaisen-manga-has-reached-90-million-copies-in-circulation/ 75.138.37.50 (talk) 02:00, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Not yet. It is expected to reach 90 million copies with the release of the 25th volume in January. Xexerss (talk) 03:20, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 December 2023

Change Eyeshield 21's total copies sold as it has hit 26 million copies in circulation

Source: https://natalie.mu/comic/news/554629 Finnthehumanlmao (talk) 16:15, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

 Done Xexerss (talk) 16:19, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

 Already done M.Bitton (talk) 20:48, 24 December 2023 (UTC)