Talk:List of baritones in non-classical music

Criteria for inclusion

• The singer must have an exisitng article in Wikipedia
• An inline citation to a reliable source in which the singer is explicitly described as a baritone must be provided next to the singer's name on the list.

All additions without an inline citation will be moved to the talk page until a reference can be provided. Voceditenore (talk) 15:01, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

I have noticed the criteria too strict, due to a lack of online citations from reliable sources, instead of just removing artists, would be better to find off a better source, I am reversing the edits made by plumadesabiduria because it was state that All additions without an inline citation were to be moved to the talk page and not to be erased. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alphamale7x (talk • contribs) 19:16, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

• The criteria are not too strict. All Wikipedia articles require references from reliable sources. This is a list of baritones. If there is no reliable evidence that a singer actually is a baritone, then they shouldn't be on the list. I agree that the names should be removed to this talk page so that editors can eventually locate suitable references if they exist. But the onus is on the editor adding the name to provide a reference. Otherwise, these types of lists attract drive-by editing, and end up innacurate, and thereby valueless. Voceditenore (talk) 06:51, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Where is the corresponding list of basses article?

Unreferenced additions

The following have been removed from the article as per above: Voceditenore (talk) 15:27, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

• Zac Efron
• James Hetfield Voceditenore (talk) 06:20, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
• Marc Bolan Voceditenore (talk) 20:01, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
• Rob Halford Voceditenore (talk) 16:53, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
• Andy Lau Voceditenore (talk) 06:32, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Citations from unreliable sources

The follwing have been removed per above:

• Rod Evans http://www.answers.com/topic/rod-evans Copy of the Wikipedia article (not a reliable source) which like-wise provides no evidence that he is a baritone) Voceditenore (talk) 06:55, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
• Michael Hutchence http://www.warr.org/inxs.html
• Alex Kapranos http://uk.launch.yahoo.com/090127/33/220hu.html
• Hansi Kürsch http://www.laps3.com/foro/79_musica/52231-cual_es_vuestro_cantante_favorito_de_rock-5.html
• Billy Idol http://www.vh1.com/artists/interview/1455148/20020612/idol_billy.jhtml
• Morrissey http://www.tiptopsound.com/articles.asp?ArticleID=8
• Ed Roland http://vivalamainstream.wordpress.com/2009/04/13/album-a-day-collective-soul-afterwords/
• Peter Murphy http://flavorpill.com/newyork/events/2008/6/26/peter-murphy
• Mike Ness http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/7441770/a/Greatest+Hits.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alphamale7x (talk • contribs) 19:39, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
• James Hetfield http://www.perfectpeople.net/biography/7111/james-alan-hetfield.htm Not only is source unreliable it nowhere states that he is a baritone. Voceditenore (talk) 06:34, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
• Gackt http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Baritone/id/1927117 This site is a mirror of the Wikipedia article and therefore not a reliable source) Voceditenore (talk) 13:16, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
• Ian Gillan http://therangeplace.forummotion.com/t31-ian-gillan A forum post is not a reliable source. Voceditenore (talk) 16:55, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Columns

I've divided the list into columns in order to allow for easier reading.LizFL (talk) 20:54, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Loving your work! I will try to find some other pics and make them fit a lil better. How do you feel about the captions below? You think it might be good to source some data bytes for the tenor page too? Might be time consuming but it is kinda neat, rather than just random piccies. BrotherDarksoul (talk) 22:10, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

You can do it if you want to. I just don't have the energy. :(

Thanks for the compliment. :)

I'm having page-stretch issues.  :( If we reduced the picture sizes of Morrison and Curtis, maybe we could fit in Buble? It would be good to have a modern crooner like him to balance out Ol' Bing.LizFL (talk) 00:12, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

I've expanded the list to four columns. LizFL (talk) 00:38, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Photo Layout

I rearranged the photo layout. This should allow for a good mix of generations and musical genres while curing page-stretch issues.

Having said this, let's be judicious about who we include. We should be striving for a representative sampling of artists. This is not intended to be a photo gallery of everyone's favorite singer. LizFL (talk) 01:02, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

• Actually, this photo layout is really not helpful and makes the page look like a poorly designed website rather than an encyclopedia article. The reader has to scroll past a whole screenload of images before they can even get to the list. Plus, images of this size seriously increase the loading time for readers on slow internet connections and cause problems for the visually impaired using screen readers. (Note: I am not visually impaired, have a very large screen and a fast internet connection.) And why are they presented in this unwieldy and non-standard table format with empty caption spaces appearing beneath them, further confusing and cluttering the layout? What is wrong with following Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Images and placing them down the right-hand side at intervals, in smaller sizes, with standard captions below the image as also recommended by Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Accessibility? Or alternatively if you all insist on grouping them horizontally like this, using the standard gallery format? Voceditenore (talk) 08:12, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

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Paul Simon

I don't know if anyone has listened to Simon and Garfunkel, but I would definitely argue that Simon has a high tenor voice primarily and a baritone secondarily. It falls within his range but is not the comfortable range. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jje123456789 (talk • contribs) 20:46, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Damian McGinty

I added Damian McGinty (of Celtic Thunder, The Glee Project, and Glee) to the list. I understand that Wikia is a very unreliable source, but it's obvious he's in that range (and can go lower, as demonstrated in Celtic Thunder's "A Place in the Choir". I'll be working to find a better source, though. --Pacohaley (talk) 17:47, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

I replaced the wikia entry with a link to the Celtic Thunder Official Website. :) LizFL (talk) 19:43, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you!--Pacohaley (talk) 21:32, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Billy Ocean

I would like to state my intention to remove Billy Ocean from the list of baritones. Though an article was cited, the writer's claim that Billy Ocean is a baritone is erroneous. Not every columnist or writer is totally knowledgeable about human vocal ranges. It is too easy to simply cite articles if you haven't done research yourself.

There is no way that Billy Ocean is a baritone. He reaches high notes that only a tenor can reach comfortably. The timbre of his voice is not dark or deep like most well-known baritones; it is too light. And his tessitura (the range at which his voice sounds comfortable, strongest, and most voluminous) is much too high to be baritone.

Furthermore, I am a vocalist myself who has done extensive research into the concept of vocal range; my research, as well as my own experience (I am a high tenor myself) does not support the contention that Ocean is a baritone.

I've scoured the internet for articles to cite him as being a tenor and I have found more that cite such rather than baritone: four of them, to be precise:

http://www.answers.com/topic/billy-ocean-album http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20094528,00.html http://www.soultracks.com/billy-ocean-because-i-love-you-review http://blogcritics.org/music/article/billy-ocean-talks-past-present-and/page-3/

With this in mind, I wish to make my intentions known and to support them: I am deleting Billy Ocean from the list of baritones and transferring him to the page listing tenors in non-classical music. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.54.170.174 (talk) 04:31, 22 September 2012 (UTC) 68.44.138.213 (talk) 17:15, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Of the sources you have cited, only the People.com one can be considered reliable. (WP:RS) LizFL (talk) 16:08, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Nevertheless, it is a fact that he is a tenor, no matter what the source. And given this, the Greek definition of "Baritone" is "deep (or heavy) sounding," according to the "Baritone" article here on Wikipedia. Ocean's voice is neither "deep" nor "heavy-sounding." FreeSpirit80 (talk) 05:57, 25 January 2013 (UTC)FreeSpirit80 (talk) 15:41, 25 January 2014 (UTC)FreeSpirit80 (talk) 15:42, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Not true.

In mainstream Range is never used to type a voice. These page lists singers according to their ranges. A tenor could have a well developed lower range doesn't mean they are Baritones. Only color and weight applies in mainstream music. Most of the singers listed are not true baritones. Penpaperpencil (Talk) 13:00, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Exactly. That is why I removed Billy Ocean from this list. Many people's understanding of vocal range and type is rudimentary at best. As you pointed out, the classification of such in mainstream pop singing is totally different than classical or operatic singing. The word for "color and weight" is "tessitura."68.44.138.213 (talk) 17:08, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Tessitura is the comfort range. Which is not used in mainstream in designating a type. Operatic classification uses tessitura, color, range etc. to designate a type and it's called Fach. Most of the singers listed here aren't even Baritones. I'd say people without a good knowledge on vocal pedagogy should refrain from editing no matter how valuable the source is, as I've seen many of the sources saying baloney about vocals. Penpaperpencil (Talk) 05:20, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Tessitura is not used for classification of pop vocalists? That I did not know. Yet color and tone are? By that account, that is why I removed Billy Ocean from this list. The Greek definition for "Baritone," according to the Wikipedia "Baritone" article is "deep (or heavy) sounding." Ocean's voice is neither of these qualities, and, as you adroitly pointed out, neither are many of the pop/rock vocalists on this article.FreeSpirit80 (talk) 15:45, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

I've now added the same caveats that I put in List of tenors in non-classical music and the similar lists. These voice types are used very loosely and often non-expertly in describing non-classical vocalists, as Penpaperpencil points out. These lists have always been problematic. I started them to avoid the constant drive-by additions of pop singers to the main articles which are basically about the operatic voices which can be clearly and reliably classified. However, the voice types for pop singers are usually subjective, often contradictory (even in reliable sources), and the additions here tend to be very poorly sourced, even with the caveat that this is a list of singers whose voice has been described as "baritone" . I have also added a slew of tags to entries which are sourced to a self-published forum (therangeplace.forummotions.com). There are many other entries, which I am sure if they are checked have "references" which do not verify the claim of voice type at all or derive from other self-published sources. Voceditenore (talk) 07:11, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

That's the problem that invites chaos to articles like this: making a list in which vocalists' types are simply "described" by sources who may be considered reliable but don't take into account the many variables of vocality, even if the classification for contemporary vocalists is looser than that of classical. That opens the door to the inclusion of erroneously-described vocalists by music critics that are allowed to stand due to their being no alternative sources to challenge them. Most of the time, in my opinion, it seems like there are only two vocal classification terms that most of these reliable sources know: Baritone and Soprano, with no consideration given for Tenor or Mezzo-Soprano. It must be remembered that most of the people who write for these reliable sources are critics who get paid to write their subjective opinion.

I had this problem on the article "List of Sopranos in Non-Classical Music," in which someone had cited two reliable sources (Billboard Magazine and the New York Times) that claimed the late Laura Branigan was a Soprano. In reality, her voice had none of the characteristics of a Soprano, but rather that of a Contralto, yet I was told that I could not remove her name from the article unless I found a reliable source stating information to the contrary. I finally did (which stated that her voice had once been "officially described as a Dramatic Alto with a four octave range" [Alto being an erroneous abbreviation for Contralto]), but I was amazed at the idea that critics throw the vocal classifications around without even taking the time to scrutinize the many variables of the vocalist. Their description of her voice was totally subjective and seemed arbitrary ("thin, tense Soprano"; "lusty, theatrical Soprano"; or "soaring Soprano"); very sloppy if you ask me.

When vocal classification is used too loosely, as it has been with the vocalists I've brought up here (Billy Ocean, Luther Vandross, and Laura Branigan), a vocalist can be "described" as being the extreme polar opposite of what they really are, as in the case of Laura Branigan. A Contralto became a Soprano (180 degree difference) due to the subjective, arbitrary description of a few critics, when her voice sounded miles deeper and lower than true Sopranos. She sang at the lowest end of the female spectrum and had a heavy, deep, and dark tone. Her case was uniquely difficult to pin down for most because she had a uniquely wide range of four octaves, which meant that she was often able to hit notes that overlapped the bottom of the Soprano range. However, that was merely her extension (notes beyond her natural range), which was attainable with her exceptional technique and skill. Obviously, people believed that she was a Soprano due solely to the fact that she sang subjectively higher or possessed a subjectively wider range than most vocalists. But the range in which she sang and resonated the most naturally was Contralto.

As for Billy Ocean, not only does he sing in the Tenor range (by strict note classification), but the tone of his voice is as light as a feather, the opposite of a Baritone, which is darker, deeper, and heavier, and who sings much lower notes. Same goes for Luther Vandross: he sang in the Tenor range and had a relatively lightly-toned voice, maybe a bit heavier than Billy Ocean, but still not deep or dark enough to be a Baritone.

Paperpencil, though you may be right in that theoretical range (notes) are not used solely to classify a contemporary vocalist, numerous sources cited here on Wikipedia state exactly the opposite: that vocal classification is applied very loosely to contemporary singers, the emphasis being almost solely on their rage. Tone and timbre are often said not to be taken into account. I am inclined to share your point of view that tone and timbre must be taken into account because some vocal ranges can overlap each other at either the highest or lowest extremes. It is the area in which their voice resonates the best that delineates their true range by giving them their tone.FreeSpirit80 (talk) 03:45, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Luther Vandross was not a Baritone.

Luther Vandross was a Tenor. He stuck to the highest registers of his range on all of his recordings and the tonal qualities of his voice are at odds with the Greek definition of Baritone as stated on the "Baritone" article, which are "Dark (or heavy) sounding)." Vandross' voice was high and light-sounding. Any lower notes were simply part of his extension, which all vocalists and musical instruments have.

Despite the citation of a reliable source that claims he was a Baritone, that being The New York Times, I have three other citations that state he was a Tenor, including The New York Times, written by another editor. The article currently cited was written in 1981 as a subjective critique of a live performance (the critic, Stephen Holden, has been wrong before in his classification of pop vocalists). The article I have cited below is his New York Times obituary, written twenty-four years later and taking into account the entire body of his work during that time. Furthermore, the other two citations, which are also completely verifiable and reliable, also share the contention that he was a Tenor.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/02/arts/music/02vandross.html?_r=0 http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20084389,00.html http://www.theguardian.com/news/2005/jul/04/guardianobituaries.artsobituaries2

With that in mind, I will remove Vandross' name from this article.FreeSpirit80 (talk) 15:57, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Providing some more reliable sources for certain singers...

I found some more reliable sources for Corey Taylor, Scott Weiland and M. Shadows. I hope they'll be more suitable for this list of baritones in non-classical music. Thanks for your consideration. Mr. Brain (talk) 19:09, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Bill Medley was the baritone half of the Righteous Brothers.

I also found credible information about Bill Medley being the baritone half of the Righteous Brothers. Hopefully, they're acceptable references. Mr. Brain (talk) 22:35, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Bass and baritone

Many of these singers are more a bass than a baritone. Maybe we chance the name of the article into "baritone and bass in non - classical music". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.160.66.145 (talk) 20:28, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Al Green

I have to make a request to remove Al Green from the list of baritones. The truth is Al Green was a tenor because the facts suggesting of Al Green as a baritone were inclusive. In all of his recordings, his voice has very nice high registers, which makes his voice unique. Despite the one source stating him as a baritone in the University of Michigan Press, saying "Combining a silky voice that ranged from gritty baritone to delicate falsetto", just want to point that out, it doesn't mean that he is a baritone. You get what I'm saying? I checked within every verifiable link and I got only 2 links from the New York Times that proves that Al Green was a tenor, from two different editors. The one article published in 1982 and the other in 23 years later (2005). If not convinced, I got the links right here:

1. http://www.nytimes.com/1982/01/31/arts/al-green-forges-new-links-between-secular-and-sacred.html

2. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/19/arts/music/19gree.html?pagewanted=print&_r=0

Just to be sure, I think these links are verifiable and reliable. Sherlock502 (talk) 03:46, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

I got another link that proves that Al Green is a tenor here:

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/albumreviews/green-is-blues-reissue-20030211 Sherlock502 (talk) 01:34, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

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John Lennon, a baritone?

You know I've been debating on this information for quite some time. Indeed John may have some low notes but he also had some high notes. He often used the higher notes of his vocal range when singing, and arguably had the second highest voice out of the Beatles, at least when speaking outside singing. Before George Harrison adopted a tenor range vocal in the late 60's onwards, John usually sang within a higher range than George, since George typically didn't use higher notes the way John did. John's vocal range is what I have considered to be right at the bottom of the tenor range. ― C.Syde (talk | contribs) 05:05, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

The source cited for Lennon was some random user's youtube video, a self-published source. I've removed it. - SummerPhD^v2.0 13:02, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. ― C.Syde (talk | contribs) 21:03, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Andrew Eldritch, a baritone?

I'm also questioning the information regarding Andrew Eldritch being a baritone because his vocal range is clearly that of a bass. He may not have a very deep bass range vocal, but I've always found his vocal range to be too deep to be classified as a baritone. ― C.Syde (talk | contribs) 05:05, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

The source cited for Eldritch is Allmusic. Outside of the sidebar, we've generally accepted it as a reliable source. - SummerPhD^v2.0 13:06, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Okay. Well I'm still against keeping the information personally, since I still consider him to be a bass, but since it's been sourced with a reliable source, I have no arguments to strongly oppose it! :D ― C.Syde (talk | contribs) 03:45, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

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Paul McCartney, a baritone?

How is it that Paul McCartney is listed here? I take back my argument further up about John Lennon not being a baritone, since my experience with distinguishing voice types wasn't very good back then, but Paul is definitely a tenor since his timbre is too light to be a baritone. I guess I can see why Paul is listed here because he has a very wide vocal range and can reach low notes that even some low baritones like myself either cannot reach or cannot reach without extreme difficulty. But that doesn't really mean he's a baritone since his tessitura lies in the tenor range. Honestly, it's okay if he must stay on the page since it's sourced and all. But I thought I should bring this up anyway. ― C.Syde (talk | contribs) 06:22, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

I removed McCartney from the list. Some voices are difficult to place; his isn't one of them. McCartney is a tenor, and sources support that. SunCrow (talk) 13:03, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

Waylon Jennings

Waylon Jennings is a bass not a baritone. He needs to be moved I realize a lot of time has been put into this page so i dont want to just move it.

Brian May

According to [1], Dr. Brian May, guitarist, second vocalist and songwriter for British band Queen, has a vocal range F2-B5, and on Bohemian Rhapsody alone goes from G2 to G5; he frequently contrasts and harmonises with Freddy Mercury's tenor and Roger Taylor's male alto, singing much darker. Doesn't that make him a baritone? I don't see why he shouldn't be included here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 177.79.14.105 (talk) 19:11, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Questionable listings

I dispute the inclusion of Gabriel (see https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1993/06/23/peter-gabriel-taking-his-music-to-new-heights/bbeb92e5-da98-4e93-a54c-4707d9f71a75/?utm_term=.e07faac282e0 and https://www.austinchronicle.com/music/2011-06-24/peter-gabriel-youssou-n-dour), Le Bon (see https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1984/04/03/duran-durran-screaming-success/7a57d285-d546-4a9e-91d7-3d35bf14b11e/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.ab3889cfbe41 and https://nypost.com/2007/11/05/they-dont-break-a-leg/), Prince (dubious sources), Rose (dubious sources), and Stewart.

I removed McCartney, who is clearly a tenor. Sources support that (see https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/10/arts/music/review-desert-trip-paul-mccartney-neil-young-review.html and https://variety.com/2018/music/news/paul-mccartney-grand-central-livestream-five-things-you-didnt-see-1202933049/). Without being rude, I cannot understand why anyone anywhere would characterize him as a baritone. Some voices are hard to place, or could fit into multiple categories. McCartney's isn't one of them. SunCrow (talk) 13:13, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

• Support. The Gabriel, Prince, Stewart, and Axel sources only say they're able to reach the baritone range, not that they are one. As examples, the Prince source states he has a wide range that spans from baritone to falsetto, and the Stewart source states "he has gone from a tenor to a baritone" which is enough to justify his removal. As this Wikipedia article itself explicitly states, being a baritone is more than just reaching the range but also about timbre. Le Bon I could go either way as it appears one of the sources explicitly calls him a baritone, but the sources you provided to counteract it seem vastly more reliable. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 01:07, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, DanielleTH. SunCrow (talk) 00:26, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

Seeing no disagreement, I have removed the entries for Gabriel, Le Bon, Prince, Rose, and Stewart. SunCrow (talk) 05:58, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

For similar reasons, the inclusion of Hozier (Andrew Hozier-Byrne) as a baritone can be disputed. The references in the post are unreliable, with one of them (the article about him and George Ezra performing together) not even mentioning it. He has considerable vocal weight and darkens his voice to fit his blues-rock style, but he's kind of an in-between voice and tricky to classify since his falsetto/head voice is solid in the fifth octave and the transitions between registers resemble the ones of a tenor (The Range Place's forums classify him as such). Notes below C3 (one octave below middle C) sound weaker and airy. His speaking voice nowadays seems to suggest his tenor tessitura too. --SchönePuppe (talk) 16:44, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Paul McCartney IS NOT a tenor, IS a baritone, he gets B1 or lower notes, that are also more common on basses than on standard baritones. --189.216.122.94 (talk) 00:01, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Dan Reynolds, Hugh Jackman, James Brown

Dan Reynolds is a tenor. He's got some almighty high notes (listen to his B4s in 'Radioactive' and even a Db5 in the tune of 'Believer'! ) and doesn't really use his low range much so he shouldn't be on this list.

Hugh Jackman's questionable because he has an amazing low range and an amazing high range - he goes from C#2 to A5 in just 'From Now On' in the Greatest Showman! I think he probably needs his own article as his voice doesn't really fit a certain voice category!

James Brown is also a clear tenor - 'I Got You (I Feel Good)' his signature song is pretty much centred around the G4-A4 tenor-specific area so he shouldn't be on this list.

I'd be tempted to put Marcus Mumford as a tenor as well but I'm not as sure - he has a high range but doesn't use it as much as some of the others... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ddt510 (talk • contribs) 00:34, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

To admin

Protect this page , Vandalisers are editing information Urva Hegde (talk) 22:17, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Kindly protect this page It's getting vandalized Urva Hegde (talk) 22:18, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Prince’s fach

Prince was not a baritone. He was a tenor because his timbre was very light and youthful. Baritones have heavier timbres and are more comfortable to sing lower notes than Tenors. His voice was too bright and both his tessitura and his passaggio were too high to be a baritone. You can hear him singing upper fourth octave notes in his chest and lower fifth octave notes in his head, especially his early work. He never strained higher notes. His passaggio breaks about D₄ and G₄. He can sing soprano, mezzo-soprano, contralto, tenor, baritone and bass. So he is a lyric and should be removed or shouldn’t be from/on the list. Sophiam122 (talk) 01:23, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Peter Steele a baritone?

Steele should be removed from this list, as he is also listed as a bass and his range seems to be more so within that field.

John Fogerty

Some sources state that Fogerty is a tenor and he can naturally hit high notes in some songs by CCR and his birth year is 1945 not 1946. 79.69.160.31 (talk) 02:39, 30 May 2022 (UTC)