Talk:List of Slovenes

LightningHop's comment of 12 March 2004

With all respect, this page contains many entries that show a lack of objectivity by the contributor of those particular items, and, indeed, show remarkable political bias and subjectivity. Chiefly, as should be apparent by recent and past edits from observers (including myself), are the entries that are political in nature and controversial. For example, under the header "National Heroes" are names that, as best I can tell, are mostly, if not all, historical Slovenian communists. These names(people) operated within the former Yugoslav federation that existed with Slovenia in its composition from 1945 until 1991 (when Slovenia seceded from the communist federation). Though these names are Slovenian in heritage they are not considered de facto heroes by any consensus within the present-day independant Slovenia. Many, however, were seen as heroes under the former communist government in Belgrade, Serbia, the seat of the Yugoslav federation, and within Slovenia but again, not by consensus but rather within the Slovenian communist sphere.

It is my opinion that this page needs revision toward objectivity. As another example, if I were to fill in some historical data for those listed under "National Heroes" over a dozen that I recognize presently would have "Slovenian communist" as a political affiliation in the description. I am not sure that all listed under "National Heroes" are not former Slovenian communists. If this is fact, then it is an inaccurate depiction of who present-day Slovenian society sees as its "heroes". It is, however, most probable that it would be an accurate depiction of who the heroes are/were in the former Slovenian communist sphere.

--LightningHop 01:38, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

National heroes

The list as it was/is was provided by me and since I do not have the official list of national heroes some inaccuracies may still be present but mainly the list contains persons which were declared heroes not just by former Yugoslav government but also by Slovene nation itself. I didn't put on the list persons which were solely Slovene communusts, but I just gave information from several external sources. These kind of twisting words all around can't bring much constructive. If you believe and truly know that some person do not belong to the list you can correct it, but if a person was a communist, why can't he also be a national hero? Do you want perhaps Nazis to be national heroes or what during (as you've said) Yugoslav civil war? Many in the list gave their lives for our present and future, so, please, show also some respect. And do not simply lean on anti-communist elements all over. Allied forces during World War II were not anti-communist but anti-Nazi. --XJamRastafire 04:51, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I am not expressing unobjective POV. Soon or later your editings will be stoped by other Wikipedians if you are not able to listen to others in this way. I shall not discuss further on herein about this object, until people throw away their presumptuousness. I was warned by other wikipedians that someone is vandalizing this article, so you should consider this. And finally, show some respect. --XJamRastafire 17:02, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Anonymous contributor

It is obvious that there are contributors to this page that want to express a particular point of view (one that is leftist). This is obvious by a recent revision by 193.77.107.13. The particular revision contains the header National Traitors and lists two individuals that were part of anti-communist elements during the war that took place in Slovenia and Yugoslavia. The page "List of Slovenians" is more slanted toward a leftist view rather than a neutral view (see my previous comment in Discuss This Page). There should be no problem including these people that are listed under the National Traitors header as long as their description is unbiased and doesn't express a particular point of view as it currently does by placing their names under a header titled "National Traitors". That previous format decisively shows a political bias toward the left. If I'm not mistaken an encyclopedia should be objective and not show a political point of view.

--LightningHop 20:11, Mar 12, 2004 (UTC)

RE: National Heroes

I apologize for not seeing your comments prior to the last revision and I'll reply to your comments at this time.

In your commentary you state tht there may be inaccuracies and that the list under national heroes "contains persons which were declared heroes not just by former Yugoslav government but also by Slovene nation itself." May I suggest that only those names that the Slovene nation has declared "heroes" be listed then. Do you have such a list? You also state in your first post that I may correct inaccuracies yet your next post threatens me with censorship by the wikipedia community if I do so (and you label my corrections as vandalism). First, I have no problems with communists being on the list(I've even added NPOV descriptions to those Slovene communists that had no description). However, I view the article as having a skewed non-neutral point of view because all listed are communists. The anti-communist elements that were listed (domobranci or white guard) and who fought during the civil war were/are labeled "collaborationalist" and "national traitors" and that is inaccurate. If it is not inaccurate then how would one describe the collaboration that existed between the Yugoslav (and Slovene) communists and the Russian Soviets during that period? You say I am twisting words yet you claim in one of your recent revisions that there was no civil war but an occupation. There was an occupation but there was a civil war as well as many historians have pointed out in the past. This can be documented presently by a recent article in the March 2004 edition of The Slovenian Times (originating from Ljubljana) under`News'catagory. It states "During the Second World War Slovenes in these two groups effectively fought a civil war".: http://www.sloveniatimes.com/. That quote was in reference to the fighting between the partisans and domobranci. Also, a question -- So that my edits are not viewed as vandalism how should I proceed here? Am I do obtain permission somewhere? How do I go about this please since I do not wish to be reproached. Is there a senior editor that I must go to first? I've read the rules but I don't see any formalized protocol before one can edit and I've done as I thought was acceptable. I hope, xjamrastafire, that you will disuss this further.

--LightningHop 19:20, Mar 16, 2004 (UTC)

Of course I shall discuss this further. I can't be quiet, since you have changed your attitude a bit. I did not say that you vandalized the article, but it seems like you have. You have just reverted what I have corrected or changed. I did not count all the communists on the list, so do not accuse me for that. I have put these persons as they were listed on some other sources all around. And what is important - which tells me something about your orientation towards vandalizing - how in a heaven Franc Rozman Stane is accused to be on the list as just a communist. Of paramount importance is that he was just a freedom fighter all of his whole life to his bitter death. So was my father - and he never fought in a so called civil war - which is now invented by some insane historians. Soviet Union and also so blackened Yugoslavia have the highest number of civil casualties in Europe during WW2. Just read the numbers. The price for this so called »Civil war« was too high. Please be so kind and do not give me any kind of external references which might discredit the NOB (Slovene National liberation struggle). I do not threaten you - I just warn you, what your activity may bring. I've said I do not have a complete list of Slovene national heroes. And for national traitors: war crimes do not fall under the statute of limitations - never. Rupnik was convicted by nation - and this is not my invention. I just give the fact. If you interpret his swearing to Nazism, it is your problem. The other on the list of national traitors Frakelj killed over 60 innocent civilians. This is War crime made to his own nation. Partisans fought primarily against German and other occupation armies, and they have to fight against adherents with Nazism - they were soon recognized by the Allies. Where did you find a civil war, please? You do not need any permission to write here, but you can show some understandings with other contributors which work hard to make some sence with all of this. 10 day war for Slovenia in this manner was not a liberation war but a secession war and so on. According to you national heroes once proclaimed can't be heroes anymore in some other state. How strange. I thought they stay heroes forever. I at least showed some respect and you are saying that I write rubbish. If you think so - so let it be, I can't do nothing more than writting this and knowing everything is in vain. I would like to understand my nation and the world's history. You may also tell this to my dead grandfather that he died 1943 in a civil war if you please... »You kill my mothers, you rape my sisters, ...« Winston Rodney --XJamRastafire 02:15, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It's a little bit chewy, isn't it? I'm afraid that your statement about Mr.Rozman Stane resonates partiality and prepossession of mind on your part. I don't know precisely how you were raised and educated but you were educated in a communist society that allowed no desenting, contradictory or opposing views.

Your last sentence is totaly irelevant. Leave behind the society itself. If Hitler should won the WW2, then I would have to live in a nazi society or whatever... (if my parents had survived) ...

Perhaps you should keep this in mind when you are editing this article. I offered you some immediate evidence coming from your own present-day countrymen who stated a civil war occurred within Yugoslavia during the 1940's and you dismiss it and say it isn't proof.

Name some of these countrymen. But reconsider also that they might be prolonged hand of these antipartisan forces from the 1940. Slovenia is independent yes, but a lot of water shall flow until many of them will undress the defeated wolf's skin, man. It is peace, yes, but national conciliation is yet to come, and yet for many to confess their agancies to the nation itself. Until that day European continent shall not know peace, if I may paraphrase Ras Tafari's words from 1930. Leave me alone now, 'cause I have a lot of better work to do. You have right to delete all here and write everything on your own, but you do not have right to teach me how wrongly raised, stupid, blind or biased I am. --XJamRastafire 00:45, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)

How is that? You say some "insane historians" came up with it. What kind of proof do you want of this civil war? Western libraries are full of assessments that the war in that region was not only a conflict with occupational forces but a civil war as well. A civil war is defined as (per Merriam-Webster dictionary) "a war between opposing groups of citizens of the same country". How do you define a civil war, xjamrastafire?

How do I define a civil war? Let me focus on this, if you permit me. Firstly the occupation of foreign forces took place on the territory of nowadays Slovenia. We know what these forces did to the nation. This German occupation itself is a war crime. Why? If you are »fair« (enough), you do not kill, hang, burn, exterminate the civilinas on that area. Now. Slovene people at that time in fact had 2 options. To collaborate or to fight against oppressors. We shall not talk how politicaly Slovenia was devided before 1940/41. Someone had to organize armed struggle against foreign armies, right. If that was Russian/Soviet CP, Yugoslav or Slovene communists it is not so important. Important is that other forces decided to fight against partisans (not communists as you say the whole time) together with occupiers. Anti partisans forces - I shall name them here:

• MVAC (Milizia Voluntaria anticomunista (Voluntary anticommunist militia), founded 1942-12, total number 4,000,
  • Village sentries (Vaške straže)
  • Legion of Death (Legija smrti)
• Slovene mountain detachment (Slovenski planinski odred) (Slovene Chetniks (slovenski četniki), founded 1943-12, total numebr 350,
• Slovene home guard legion (Slovenska domobranska legija), founded 1943-12, total number 10,500,
• Slovene home guard legion (Slovenska domobranska legija), founded 1944-07, total number 12,000,
• Slovene safety national assembly (Slovenski varnostni narodni zbor) (SNVZ), Primorska, founded 1944-07, tn 1,800,
• Upper Carniola (Gorenjska), founded 1944-07, tn 800 - 1.000,
• Slovene national army (Slovenska narodna vojska), Ljubljana division (Ljubljanska divizija), Slovene mountainous division (Slovenska gorska divizija), founded 1945-02-21, tn 13,000.

All these units were under German police headquarters for the combat against partisans in Ljubljana and Trieste (Trst) and they have sworn to Adolf Hitler. In my opinion (not as I was raised or anyhow) fighting against its own nation is the highest possible (war) crime. I can't define civil war in this way, nohow. Anti partisan movement did not appeared in a whole Slovene ethnical territory. In Styria youngsters who were not organized in the NOB, were sent directly to German Wehrmacht and many died on Russian front. Now you come and try to foist a certan civil war. Excuse me Sir, but you should also reconsider your visitings to all of that western public libraries. Secondly what is very important the whole Slovene ethnical territory was liberated by Slovene partisan's units together with Yugoslav four armies and with British 8th Army. This is not civil war. All antipartisan's units should bind themselves in a fight against the enemy and not to do crimes against nation itself. After the war, political regime would be open and they could expectate participation in a rule over Slovenia. Slovenia was never communist state, but social - all the time. It is true that it was onepartial. You must dare a lot to invade one country (as Germans did), hang people on the trees, to shoot civilians in prisons, publicaly revile them or to send them in concentration camps. You must have done a deal with the devil, and I here in 2004 within Wikipedia have to close my eyes... »400 years of the same same philosophy.«

Please. You react as if Yugoslav/Slovenian communism was something pure, sacred, lily white, virtuous and uninfluenced by outside forces and that only the opposition were collaborators and criminals. You add comments on Rupnik and Frakelj but omit that Ivan Macek Matija has been accused of war crimes as well. Maybe you were not taught that Macek is accused of taking opposition prisoners and disemboweling them with a knife while they were still alive.

If Maček commited war crimes, you can freely state that. I am not aware of that - and I do belive that some oppresion forces were within such state. I won't delete your additions if so. But if you can't except that these two men betrayed the nation, it is your problem.

Yet for you only the opposition committed war crimes.

I didn't say that.

Your society has most probably not taught you that Tito fought with the Red Army in Russia after WWI or that he couldn't attack the invading Nazi's in '41 until Stalin allowed him to several months later (due to the non-aggression pact Soviet Russia had with Nazi Germany and after Germany invaded Russia). After the war, in 1946, your allies the U.S. and Britian declared Yugoslavia a puppet state of Soviet Union. So it can be said that the communists could be looked upon as traitors of the Yugoslav/Slovenian people as well. And as for heroes, they don't last forever. If that were true then Jefferson Davis and General Robert E. Lee would be on American coins and American dollars today.

I agree with this. But now Tito is to blame for all of this, right. What about the regular Yugoslav Royal Army?

Yet at the same time these American figures are not looked upon as traitors in their society. Perhaps you should take a trip aboard and visit libraries in the west, old man.

Old man? And you? Take you a trip to the east sometimes, let us say to wide Ukraine, where 11.000 civilians died in (so called) civil wars under fast German tanks nad flames. Old man. What else?

I would venture to say that there are fewer pieces of objective literature on this war in Maribor or Ljubljana libraries than there are within a Chicago, Mexico City or London public library. Because you are from Slovenia does not make you an "expert" on all that concerns Slovenia's past.

This is true, but I never claim that. I just try to write, man.

In fact, it seems the opposite may be true and I wonder how much of your upbringing in a communist society has colored or clouded your objectivity on this subject. Your emotional defense of anything that you perceive critical of anything communist shows a lack of impartiality on your part. You defend the communist view ardently it seems. This is not objective writing on your part. You write and edit like a communist and Slovenia is no longer a communist state and that should be reflected in this article.

Communism in fact has nothing to do with this particular subject.

I propose that the table of contents for the list of Slovenians be similar to the lists that exist in Wikipedia for other cultures such as the French, English, Italians, Germans. For example, National Heroes could be replaced with the more non-partisan titles like Politicians and/or Military Men and Women. What do you think?

I think national heroes should stay and also »national traitors«, when they once will be properly defined. Fair military men are something completely differenr than war criminals. Respect. --XJamRastafire 00:20, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)

--LightningHop 20:07, Mar 17, 2004 (UTC)

I also propose that wording in descriptions of this article be completely neutral like they are on similar pages for other cultures. Wording at present is not neutral.

This is a list of Slovenes, and you have denoted some person as Yugoslav what ever. I can not see why.

--LightningHop 20:32, Mar 17, 2004 (UTC)

Encyclopedic articles should be non-partisan and objective

Xjamrastafire, you have a unique method of responding to a posted comment. What do you call that "the cow caught in the combine" method or "the lazy man's way"? It is a very sloppy way to respond and I suspect done intentionally to disrupt and chop up my comments. Refrain from doing this again please.

Nothing was irrelavent about my statement. Its point you just seem to want to ignore or it just went over your head. Also, the evidence of your fellow countrymen substantiating that there was a civil war is evident by the link I submitted earlier to The Slovenia Times website. I don't have to provide names...The Slovenia Times in Ljubljana supported my claim in that March 2004 article. Did you view it? Of course, you can claim that the Times are "anti-partisan forces from the 40's" if you want but that isn't credible just ridiculous. Many citizens in Slovenia have lost family and friends to communist atrocities before, during and after the war and therefore do not support the party line or view which apparently you swallowed hook, line and sinker. Their "prolonged hand" is in reality knowledge of what happened during the war and they do not accept communist rhetoric on the subject. And now they are free to express what they know.

You express how horrible the occupiers were in Slovenia (and that is true for sure) but you refrain from telling also how horrible the partisans were. Peasant, farmers, priests were given 2 choices by the partisans too when they entered a village. One; join us, or two; die because you will not join us. If you were a villager or farmer and didn't believe the communist dogma and doctrine and refused to join the partisans you were labeled a fascist and anti-communist. Many times these folks were terrorized, tortured and then murdered by the partisans (and that is well documented). Ever heard of the atrocities committed against the Kozina family in Zapotok by the partisans? You say I should go to the Ukraine to view fascist atrocities? Why not just visit Kocevje Rog where the partisans slaughtered 12,000 unarmed domobrans and others (without trials)? An atrocity is an atrocity after all. There are mass graves all over Slovenia thanks to the partisans and that is known throughout Slovenia this very day, isn't it? And during the communist era if these places were talked about one wound up in prison and then found life difficult for a very long time. Isn't that right?

Regarding Rupnik and Frakjl you state; "But if you can't except that these two men betrayed the nation, it is your problem". It is not my problem it is your problem. It is your inflamatory, biased wording. For example in the Wikipedia under Famous French People is listed Petin of Vichy France characterized by many as a traitor. He is listed under "Politicians" and there is no inflamatory, biased or partisan language used. It is objective, neutral and unbiased. You state, "In my opinion (not as I was raised or anyhow) fighting against its own nation is the highest possible (war) crime". But, an encyclopedia should be influenced by facts and not opinions. That is why I say your views on this topic are colored and clouded. Yet your partisan fighters fought against its own nation as well (hence civil war).

Regarding the forces you listed, the Vaske Starze were begun as a force to counter such crimes committed by the partisans. They eventually became the domobranci if I'm not mistaken and received backing by the Nazis as is known. However, these forces were not begun initially by the Nazis but began in response to the cruelty that was perpetrated upon innocent people in small villages throughout Slovenia by the partisans. It is documented that the partisans began their terror campaign and revolution prior to the Italian and German occupation. Forces, such as the domobranci, gained Nazi support because they were anti-communist. Communism was reviled by many in the world and in Slovenian villages and without being pro-fascist. The only reason the allies supported Tito's partisan forces was because they were the more effective fighting force against the Nazis. They certainly did not support the communist revolution in Slovenia/Yugoslavia. Supporting the communist partisans was the lesser of two evils at the time.

Notwithstanding, what I want to point out is that these articles should be without partiality. They should be non-partisan and utilize neutral language as is the case with other list of peoples of other cultures listed in Wikipedia. Some of the contributions you have made utilize words that are inflamatory, partisan and biased.

Also, the phrase "old man" is only an expression for males of any age. --LightningHop 23:34, Mar 18, 2004 (UTC)

NOB

Please do not mark others way of writting. If you do not like my way of responding, do not blame me - everything is pretty much visible. My knowledge of English is not perfect so I won't read and bother about all those your blind man's buffs words... (if I wrote correctly). The WW2 in Slovenia lasted between two precise dates (1941 to 1945). The correct number of slaughters was not 12,000 but around 9,000. But NOV fighters had 16,000 victims (of total number of fighters 37,901). And further on, 9,000 died in concentration camps (many of them were announced to Nazis by anti-partisan's forces), 1,600 died because of bombing, 5,000 Slovenes died which were mobilized in German Army, 19,600 killed by shooting as hostages. We must count also 71,000 exiles to Germany, Serbia and to Croatia (of planned 220,000 to 260,000), 8,000 exiles because of reprisals, 35,000 on forced labour, 35,000 mobilized to German Army, 35,000 arrested, 29,000 in concentration camps. All together 10% of the populations - the highest number during the WW2 in Europe!

You went off topic. Once the true responsible persons for post war activities shall be found, they will be characterized as criminals - but - you can't blame all the partisans - which were the only true free fighters in Slovenia in this terrible war - for what had happened. Blame who whatever you want, but in god's sake do not blame Slovene partisans for that, man. I'll never except anyone's claiming of civil war at that times. Sorry. What does it mean to receive backing by Nazis - the synonim for collaborating, not my opinion - but pure fact.

However, these forces were not begun initially by the Nazis but began in response to the cruelty that was perpetrated upon innocent people in small villages throughout Slovenia by the partisans. It is documented that the partisans began their terror campaign and revolution prior to the Italian and German occupation.

Really? How can you imagine that? Germans burnt the village of Upper Carniola Dražgoše to ground (and many more), just because partisans fought against them. This fight was unfair, they killed 10 or even more civilians just for one German soldier. How can you kill civilians because their people is fighting against you? Nobody does this. Where do you see so called partisan's terror? Fight against the enemy is a terror against you own nation?

And about Kočevski Rog, Teharje and all that. If I have decided wrongly at that time and fought against my own nation, I would not expect no mercy, but this is not the issue here. You can also recall sveti Urh and many more places, if you are brave enough. I can hardly. I can not talk this with my father who was there and now has enough blood for the whole of his life. What do you expect me to do? I was raised wrong - my father never told me almost anything - just a few things from this time, that he was nearly killed two times and that he read about his own death in a newspaper, published in Ljubljana. Leave these wounds in peace and do not quarrel what is non-partisan and objective and what is not - please. Just correct what do you have to and do not teach others how to live, feel and think.

Why are you all the bloody time attacking persons like Josip Broz Tito. Why not Sir Bernard Law Montgomery, 1st Viscount Montgomery of Alamein who also fought against Nazis in Northern Africa and all around? They were both Field Marshals as I recall. Monty was soldier, so Tito was too. And show some respect and do not give just flowery phrases...

And finally BTW your designation of Slovene partisans is wrong. They were not just partisans, they were called NOV and POS (Narodnoosvobodilna vojska in partizanski odredi Slovenije, National Liberation Army and Partisan's Detachments of Slovenia) - and they were predecessors of later Slovenska teritorialna obramba (Slovene Territorial Defence) and nowaday Slovenska vojska (Slovene Army). I do not know your nationality, but the small nations also can have regular armies. Everything that I was talking is also well documented, but as you've said probaly not in Chicago, or elsewhere outside of Slovenia. I'm not surprised. I am Slovene, and I am proud of that. Really proud. Do not blame me for the mass graves inhere, do not blame freedom fighters for that - blame all those who were really responsible for - perhaps Yugoslav millitary authorities (perhaps only few Slovenes knew for what has happened after the war). And why do you think British Army refused fugitives in Carinthia and left them to Yugoslav Army? The war was finished, so this problem could be solved in more human way, because they surely could expect that many revenge will be present. How many German soldiers (and among them thousands of Slovene youngsters from Styria) did come back from Soviet Union in 1950s? The Discovery Channel has the numbers, I just recall that the number was very low. But the price of »communist« Soviet Union is measured in millions, exactly 9,000,000 soldiers and 11,000,000 civilians! And do not speak me about civilian wars, I know I can count well.

I see this debate is thoughtless, so I shall slowly finish down. --XJamRastafire 07:31, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The Issue with List of Slovenians

Well discussing the aspects of your contribution from its political base is futile. Let me see if I can clarify again my contention with this "List of Slovenians" page. The real issues here are the neutrality of the designations for individuals as national heroes and national traitors as well as its official legitimacy. One, I don't see these types of designations anywhere else in Wikipedia hence they smack of partisanship and non-neutrality. It is my contention that those people listed should be under other designations such as "politicians" and "military men and women" as is the case in other similar Wikipedia works. The descriptions should be without the inflamatory, politcally biased language and wording. In other words, non-partisan descriptions should prevail. (Respectfully, I assume you understand the english terms "partisanship" and "non-partisan" completely, correct?) Second, my basis for the stance on legitamacy is the fact that this list of people described and designated as heroes and traitors was conceived by a country and government that no longer exists. It is my contention that the present Slovenian republic does not recognize this list as it exists here and is therefore an arbitrary, subjective contribution and not a true reflection of the sentiments within present Slovenian society or government.

I do know that some of these fellows were listed by the former communist Yugoslav government as they are (pre-1991) when Slovenia was not an independant democratic state. But, now that Slovenia is an independant parliamentary democratic republic this list and contribution and its neutrality is questionable and dubious since it was conceived under the hegemony of a government that no longer exists. You rationalize your inclusion but offer no irrefutable proof as to whether the present day Slovenian government officially lists these people as national heroes and national traitors. Like I said, I know the previous communist government officially did but that government and country (Yugoslavia) no longer exists. Therefore the list is invalid unless the present day Slovenian government officially recongnises it. So does the current democratic Republic of Slovenia list these particular individuals as heroes and traitors of Slovenia this very day, xjamrastafire? All you have to do is prove it. If you say you don't have to prove it or can't for whatever reason then that contribution I contend is hearsay, false, arbitrary, illegitimate and that the designations national heroes and traitor must be dropped and changed to something else since they are not verified as nationally recognized designations. You've claimed that everything you say is well documented. Well provide some documention on whether these people that you list as traitors and heroes are recognized as such by the present day Slovenian democratic republic. Not the Slovenian government before 1991 but the Slovenian government after 1991. The one that exists today. Not the one that no longer exists and came up with the list.

Also, you said this; "Everything that I was talking is also well documented, but as you've said probaly not in Chicago, or elsewhere outside of Slovenia." That is not what I said at all. In fact I stated the exact opposite. Perhaps you should read more carefully and cease misrepresenting the truth as you have done now many times. --LightningHop 03:11, Mar 21, 2004 (UTC)

Response to the Issue with List of Slovenes

Well, all right. I admit my grammatical error. I wanted to say "everything that I was talking is also well documented, but as you've said not withing Slovene cities but probably better in Chicago or elsewhere outside of Slovenia". Are you satisfied now? I have already said twice that I do not have the proper list (whatever might be) and you are free to go and delete or add persons which should be on the list. But you can't designate the WW2 on the territory of Slovenia (the NOB) with civil war - as you have tried, I guess also twice. (If we count 9.000 wictims of anti-partisan forces on one side and if we sum up wictims on the other side - 51.200 - how (even just mathematically) this can be designated as civil war?!). You have no right to distort the history! Why is so important that Slovene government which took place after 1991 is the only one which is suitable for recognitions of every sort? The regular government also took place during the war - please read when first Slovene governement was established. You can't also say that pre 1991 Slovene government was not legal. You just put everything in the communist area. You also think that present government of Slovenia is the best of them all. It is just a government which is as legal as the first postwar Slovene government established at the Bratina hall in Ajdovščina on May 5 1945 - four days before actual war ended in Slovenia. For instance Franc Rozman Stane was well known partisan commandant and you designated him to be commandant in a civil war. Why is that so? If you have data that, for instance, Maček Matija was a war criminal - you can state that. See what is an issue here or not? I do not know why there are no national heroes or national traitors listed on other nation lists. What about a term war criminal? How about these persons:

• Josef Mengele,
• Adolf Eichmann - convicted on all counts, Eichmann was sentenced to death (the only civil death penalty ever carried out in Israel) on December 2, 1961 and was hanged on May 31, 1962 at Ramleh prison. (Is this NPOV designation?) - I've put the same to Leon Rupnik - he was also convicted and sentenced to death by shooting in 1946 (by legal Slovene government as Eichmann was by legal Israeli one).
• Slobodan Milošević - not yet recognised as war criminal...
• Tojo Hideki, ...
• ...

The list I've made is not meant to extol so called communist area, but to distinguish between some non-human persons within the nation itself. What is wrong with this? This is not POV? The Wikipedia should follow the same step. Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini are well known persons - but Leon Rupnik, which falls to the 'same category' is not. That's why he appeared in this list. The same with Franc Frakelj. As I've said I am proud that I am Slovene - but should I be proud because of these persons or because of so many other which really deserve to be respected - IN ALL TIMES... I am proud of a nation, but I known it is not better than any other nation. It has its own darkd side (and this list should mirror this fact), although it is well known that the nation alone is a peaceful one. I guess Germans or (Austrians) can't be proud because of Hitler, but because of Carl Friedrich Gauss and such persons. Do you see the difference now or still not? Now Rudolf Maister is also recognized as a respectable Slovene, and what is well known he was not recognized so before 1940, since he was not fond of prewar communists - as it is said. He did good to the nation, so he is on the list. --XJamRastafire 14:38, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Reply and Issues

First, I don't currently want to delete or add anyone to or from your list. What I see as inaccurate is the section titled "National Heroes". And the other section currently titled "National Traitors" should stay off. Those section titles imply that all people that are listed and described are somehow then a part of a sanctioned national statement which is not accurate. Once the title is changed the people listed should stay but the designations and descriptions should be revised to reflect impartiality. I object to the inclusion of the designation "heroes". It is a subjective description on your part and should not be used. Only objective historical descriptions of their respective roles during the conflict should be used. I don't object to terms such as partisan or NOB or National Liberation Army or whatever but it should be noted that they were communist led. I do object to terms such as collaborationist, etc., since these are era terminology used by the opposing faction. However, in place of collaborationist could be a description stating that these anti-communist/partisan forces did receive fascist/nazi backing amongst others.

Secondly, I am not distorting history when I say that a civil war occurred within Yugoslavia/Slovenia during WW2. And I think the term should be used within the context of the fighting. Cited here are several independant sources that back up my stand:

"There were two main resistance groups: the chetniks under Mihajlović and an army under the Communist Tito. In 1943 civil war broke out between the two factions, of which the second was more uncompromising in its opposition to the Axis." http://www.slider.com/enc/57000/Yugoslavia_History.htm

"The stage was set for a civil war." http://www.geocities.com/kumbayaaa/nationalcouncilforslovenia.html

"So the lands of the dismembered Yugoslav state became not only the scene of Europe's greatest resistance struggle, but also one of its bloodiest civil wars." http://www.ucc.ie/staff/jprodr/macedonia/yugmodww2g.html

"...Partisans or ‘Domobranci’ (the home guard accused of collaboration with the Nazis) into the grave. During the Second World War Slovenes in these two groups effectively fought a civil war." http://www.sloveniatimes.com/kontent.php?topic=2

Please, then, xjamrastafire, disprove that a civil war occurred. Cite some independant sources to back up your assertion. I can come up with more sources that assess and state that not only was there a war of occupation and liberation going on within Yugoslavia during WW2 but a civil war as well.

From the U.S. Library of Congress' Federal Research Division: "World War II claimed 1.7 million Yugoslav lives,...About one million of those were killed by other Yugoslavs." http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field(DOCID+yu0031). Please read what constitutes a civil war, xjamrastafire. If 1 million Yugoslavs died at the hands of other Yugoslavs and that isn't the result of a civil war then I guess no one knows what a civil war really is.

You say, "The list I've made is not meant to extol so called communist area, but to distinguish between some non-human persons." This statement alone displays POV and opinion even though you claim otherwise, and, as I've said in a previous post, you show partiality and prepossession.

So, the problem isn't with the people listed. The problem is how they are listed. How they are designated and described. The problem is also the terms 'heroes' and 'traitors', etc., which should be eliminated and replaced as I've said previously. --LightningHop 22:33, Mar 25, 2004 (UTC)

Reply

Yes, you could also simply say that you shall add or delete some persons from the list or put your arguments in this talk page instead that you are trying to denigrate others contributions. This will be just fine - but you have to go or try to foist the idea of civil war during the WW2 (specially on the Slovene ethnical territory). That is why I shall reply in a short manner - if you allow me.

I have checked URLs you gave, but I must say that they are full of lies, half truths and pickings. Try to read one serious historical book about this subject. (This is also valid for me :--) I also doubt that these are really independant sources, as you've said. They are bunch of mixtures of everything (and perhaps of nothing).

About civil war. I gave you correct approximate numbers about victims on Slovene territory - I can't see why are you giving now numbers within Yugoslav borders. 1 million Yugoslavs killed by other Yugoslavs - I have to check this number, but as I've said I am talking about Slovene NOB. (In fact the same thing is with Yugoslavia, too - and I am not the one who shall defend or intercede National liberation fight against designations ala Civil war). I was talking about numbers in Slovenia (51.200 towards 9.000)!

In recent times many attempts were made to discredit the NOB and to speak in favour of national collaborators (or those who were under command of occupiers) - but I won't go into the details.

My sentence:

The list I've made is not meant to extol so called communist area, but to distinguish between some non-human persons.

speaks for itself and it does not display POV. We can find many persons designated as national heroes listed all around here in Wikipedia. If you do not like this list itself, you can simply change it (as I've said) and do not fall into long debates or to teach others what to do or even what to think. What I've done (and you are saying I am biased) is, that I have just collected persons who were designated national heroes in several sites. You can also do the same with such persons in Wikipedia - but you said we do not need such lists. I won't argue - but on the other side after all we also do not need lists at all. The same with persons who have commited war crimes (soldiers, leaders, politicians, (national traitors), painters, ...). I do not want to have the last word and I'll say no more (I shall reply just in that case if you will perhaps again say something that is not true or that it insinuates on something). If you want to change anything, just give your arguments here and others shall say theirs - and please don't debate into far distance for no reason. And finally we can talk about Ivana Kobilca in the same manner as for many other persons. --XJamRastafire 12:21, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Term patriots is inappropriate

The term patriot is inappropriate and therefore unacceptable. Who constitutes a patriot or who should be included under the titled heading "patriots" simply is a point of view. For example, you then would not mind if Leon Rupnik is then included as a patriot if someone viewed Rupnik as a Slovene patriot who was against communism and fought with all means against communism, correct, or, wrong? Please no polemics which include figures, opinions, etc. --LightningHop 11:30, Apr 6, 2004 (UTC)

What then?

What then should be in? I really do not know now - if ever I'll know at all. This mumbo-jumbo of what is right and what is wrong, what is polemic and what is not...

National heroes are not right. No respect for them. National traitors are not right too. They are just wicked people. Patriots never existed. Fredom was never achieved. Ras Tafari was never the Conquering Lion of Judah. Spare me - will you. Rise Up Freeman, Rise Up - so we Rise Up from these little highlands - Italians invaded Ethiopia - so he send soldiers. Italians and Germans invaded Slovenia so he ---. --XJamRastafire 22:12, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Then?

Mumbo-jumbo, schmumbo-jumbo. You seem sore that someone is calling you on this contribution of yours, rasta man (corrected this unproper offensive designation to Jani by XJamRastafire 14:21, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)) Melik. I am all astonishment that a man of your background who is fully aware of the debate within Slovene society cannot see or refuses to acknowledge the problem with this contribution of yours. I know you are biased for you have given numerous reasons why you are so. Nonetheless...

You bring up the term 'respect' often when you refer to my objections or comments regarding this article. Why should there be 'respect' for inaccuracies and non-neutral points of view? Respect should be sensed within an encyclopedia only as it is reflected from the truthful, accurate presentation of the relevant facts regarding whatever it is that is featured. An encyclopedia should not be a self-serving expression of the contributor, nor a platform to postulate opinions or viewpoints, nor glorify ones heroes and dead family members. If a viewpoint or perspective is to be expressed then fittingly a contradistinction should be made as well. An encyclopedia should present facts about man and men, facts about his ideas and the world he lives/lived in. Those facts should be presented without bias, partiality or opinions whether personal or political. I am equally astonished that such a man of letters as yourself cannot recognize or refuses to acknowledge that this is what an encyclopedia should entail.

What then, you ask? I stated previously what should be done in my post 'The Issue with List of Slovenians'. I think that your revision 'political leaders/politicians/statesmen' is a step in the proper direction. I suggest in my previous post that perhaps 'military men and women' may be appropriate. This perhaps could replace 'patriots' and thereby quell some debate which you seemingly find tedious and pedantic.

Another point of contention is the civil war issue. Regarding the civil war issue, further indications: "Even Ribicic, who wrote about the national liberation struggle as the first stage of our revolution, whereas the change of social relations was the second (Ibid, p. 279) said in Iskanja (p.15 i.e. in 1994): ‘The claim that the National Liberation Struggle was a civil war – because of the clash between citizens of the same nation, a war between those for communism and those against communism – is unscientific, one-sided and primitive.’ So we know the truth, albeit Tito himself admitted, “…this was a civil war. We just did not talk about it during the war as it would have been detrimental to us.” (Vjesnik, 24 May 1972). http://www.crce.org.uk/brief7.htm

Please, if you can, cite some sources that dispute that a civil war occurred during 1941-1945 in Yugoslavia which Slovenia was a part.

--LightningHop 11:45, Apr 16, 2004 (UTC)

Domoljubje ni isto kot nacionalizem in ni škodljivo! (Patriotism is not the same as nationalism and it is not harmful!) --Boris Pahor, Slovene author from Trieste, survivor of concentration camp in French Vosges. --XJamRastafire 01:07, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Well Then

Well rastafire, I will take your lack of response as a response (basing it on one of your previous posts). Based on the comments of that previous post I shall alter the title "Patriots" to that which is less biased and impartial - "Military men and women". I will make the change in upcoming days (giving you time to respond to this post, if you wish). --LightningHop 06:22, May 2, 2004 (UTC)

Rast man Melik

Please. I never altered or edited your commentaries on this page in any manner. Cease with the crude behavior to edit my commentaries as you have by altering your name to that which you wish to be addressed as opposed to that which I the commentator addressed. I will allow it this time.

Regarding your lame quote; Boris Pohar then can rightly be described as an idiot and a fool.

"Patriotism is nonsense and foolhardy if it means accepting a political or economic philosophy that is nonsense and detrimental to the populace."

"Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons".

"Patriotism is often an arbitrary veneration of real estate above principles."

"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind."

"You'll never have a quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race."

"I am not an Athenian or a Greek, I am a citizen of the world."

"Patriotism, the virtue of the vicious."

"It is lamentable, that to be a good patriot one must become the enemy of the rest of mankind."

--LightningHop 11:39, Jun 13, 2004 (UTC)

You, LightningHop have no right to adress me as you wish. I have just showed you how to call me. Inhere I just have two names, my nick (or user name) and my real name. By calling me »Rast(a) man Melik« is an offensive act, which is not in an accordance of Wikipedia policy. So, you should consider and follow it up. How dare you calling Boris Pahor an idiot? I gave you what he has said about patriotism and you are now blemishing him. Shame on you, man. --XJamRastafire 11:38, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

»I am not just a citizen of this world, I am also a Slovene.«

All above citations (or whatever) belong to the same category, which is already marked as NPOV in the article of patriotism. (Think about it - and also read the article itself, please). You think that patriotism is just one political term or a tool of some sovereign to manipulate masses. Well, all right, you have a right to think what you think is right. If Tolstoy had negative attitude toward patriotism, this does not mean that this term is a priori without any positive senses. I do not know for your nationality, LightningHop (I really do not care - and in this way you can not tell me that you're a citizen of the world, 'cause you're not), but I know that a lot of patriotism kept my nation still alive. You have stucked to the civil war on nations's territory during WW2, but I hope you also know some other related history. And as it shows you do not have it probably, otherwise you wouldn't say so many untrue things. Patriotism, my dear fellow, keeps some nation alive. What else? Stupid obedience to major nations, or (I don't know). I won't argue any more about the term, because I am not making the whole content of this encyclopedia. What bothers me is your constant accusations that I behave crude, etc. You're also damaging this article. I know that now you'll thousand and thousand words which will say it's not true. You have thrown away terms like »national heroes/traitors«, »patriots« and you have replaced them with some undefined or overgeneralized terms. According to your words I can say that you just seek to say so many bad things about Slovenes. Can you say something constructive and positive about them, old man? (This 'old man' is meant in a good sense of Star Trek: DS9 series - of what Captain Benjamin Sisko says to Jadzia..., although you might do not deserve it.....) I advise you that you better leave me alone in my errors, and that you erase your fantasy. --XJamRastafire 13:59, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Mr. XJamrastafire

Addressing you with "rasta man Melik" was simply a play on words based on your frequent rasta references and quotes, your rasta-inspired user name and your real name. You apparently admire things Rastafarian, you are a man, and, you are a Melik. Hence, no derogatory offense toward you on my part was intended. If you truely feel offended by my addressing you as such then I apologize. I won't address you similarily again. What about it is offensive to you I can't determine.

Regarding Pahor, I will apologize for calling him an idiot. That was inappropriate and unnecessary. However, he is fully wrong in my opinion. Patriotism can be like blind faith and lead to many social aberrations and injustices. Who is a patriot to one can be a traitor to another. Patriotism is not a proper and equal substitute for an actual sense of moral or ethical rectitude inherent within an individual.

You say, "According to your words I can say that you just seek to say so many bad things about Slovenes." Can you show, XJamrastafire, where I've said "bad things about Slovenes"? You confuse or equate my critique or criticism of your contribution and of Slovenian partisans/communists as a criticism of Slovenia and Slovenes in general. That is your error. I hold Slovenia and Slovenes with highest regard and know many Slovenes as friends.

You say, "You're also damaging this article". How so? Please elaborate.

You say, "I advise you that you better leave me alone in my errors, and that you erase your fantasy.". What, precisely, do you mean to say by this? Are you threatening me with censor somehow? I understand that you are now an administrator but I hope you do not abuse your authority, XJamrastafire. Do you think your biased, partial contributions here are not to be contested? Are you intimating that you are above criticism, correction and dialectic on your contributions? And "fantasy"? What "fantasy" do you think I have? You're the one referencing Star Trek not I. I have no "fantasy" nor illusions concerning this serious discussion, contribution and article about Slovenia and Slovenes. --LightningHop 06:22, Jun 25, 2004 (UTC)

Reply to LightningHop about Civil War in Slovenia during WW2

I accept your apology about adressing me in such a way. Okay. By saying that your adressing was offensive towards me I guess it is just a personal view. But on the other hand - why you call me after my surname, and not for example after my first name...? I do believe that you did not mean to insult me - and I've never said I am somekind of rastafarian (but in fact perhaps I am - but who cares...). You just have concluded that I admire many things from this. It is my personal thing what I do believe, and I do act according to this, so I do not want to press down on anyone.

Bad things about Slovenes. I've already said it several times that you try to show how a civil war was going on during WW2 in Slovenia. Recently a third Slovene Partisan general, Lado Ambrožič Novljan passed away. In his short TV biography he said and affirmed that there was no civil war, so this is your invention and I can not stand it. Who shall I believe - one who does not respect nation's struggle or one true fighter? For sure I have to deal with all kind of constructive criticism about the subject - but you try to represent me as a biased contributor. Why do you have to criticize Slovene partisans after all? They were also Slovenes and I do not see nothing wrong with their struggle for freedom. Novljan also said that in Primorje (a littoral region of Slovenia) there were no collaboration of any kind. The struggle embraced all levels of Slovene population in this area. Also in Styria there were no collaboration. 30.000 (35.000) young Slovenes from Styria were brought to German Army under constraint (of which 5.000 have died in battlefields). Anti-communist fight (your designation - not mine) was held just in a central part of Slovenia. For units see above. And tell to your Slovene friends what you think about so called civil war. I wonder what they have to say about this. »...erase your fantasy« is from Robert Nesta »Bob« Marley's song Stiff Necked Fools. You can read the lyrics and you can tell me what Bob meant by 'fantasy'. With Star Trek I have just explained in which way I have used a term 'old man' - not to say that you have a fantasy. I am not threatening you in no way. I just try to discuss this serious subject. That's all. I hope we do understand. And finally, you didn't have to call me Mr. Jani, or my nick is just fine...

Damaging the article. I try to be constructive, but in this way I can not go further on. How can I? What do I have to deny, what do I have to believe? To my nation's true history, or to modern fashions of all kinds? How about you? Stop accusing me all the time, and write something down that will be adequate and try to help such contributors as I am. How can you go over the facts and numbers I gave you about NOB? It is true, yes, that patriotism can be traitorousness in many cases, but not in all ones. Slovene patriotism, Irish patriotism, ... they do exist and they have existed through history. Adolf Hitler was (simple - if I follow your proposal) a military man. As a wikipedian I can say nothing more about him? That he pushed European nations to one of the most terrible war and also one of the greates nation as Germans are... And as he admited in the court (about 1926) he was even not German... Do I have to be quiet about this?

Smrt fašizmu, svoboda narodu (Death to fascism, freedom to nation)

Živela OF (Hail Liberation Front)

--XJamRastafire 16:18, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

NPOV note

The NPOV notice has been here since 19:17, 16 Mar 2004. Someone please do something already, it's September... --Joy [shallot] 15:41, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The »National Heroes« have been since renamed to »Military Men and Women«, which, I believe, is the proper title for people active in any military campaign on either side. I plan to add general Leon Rupnik onto the list; others will hopefully make the list more complete. Are there any further objections concerning the bias of the list, or could the NPOV notice be removed? --Peterlin 14:34, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Heroes

There no place here for terms like "hero." The list should be objective and categorised as such. France Preseren is a Slovenian 'hero', yet we list him (correctly!) as simply a poet.

Regarding Civil War

Xjam says, "I've already said it several times that you try to show how a civil war was going on during WW2 in Slovenia. Recently a third Slovene Partisan general, Lado Ambrožič Novljan passed away. In his short TV biography he said and affirmed that there was no civil war..."

Xjam it is irrelavent what a participant, whether Slovene partisan general or an old Domobranc fighter has to say about the conflict that occurred within Slovene or Yugoslav borders. They have their own unobjective views since they were opposing participants. (However I find it ironic that Tito said it was a civil war in Vjesnik, 24 May 1972). What does matter more is the views of those who did not participate in that conflict or have any affiliation with the participants of that conflict. They are called historians...those who have objective and NOT subjective views and opinions. I've displayed some references in my previous posts and you only ignore them. This is due to your family's involvement within that conflict. You are right in the middle of it. I cannot blame you for your perspective however you are wrong, sir. You cannot see beyond your family's involvement and tragedy within and due to this conflict.

   Smrt fašizmu, svoboda narodu (Death to fascism, freedom to nation)
   Živela OF (Hail Liberation Front)  

This declaration of yours demonstrates your lack of objectivity on this matter. I never have said that the domobranci, chetniks, etc., were correct in their fight. Nor have I ever stated "death to socialism" or "death to communism". Yet I am amazed how you just dismiss my references to objective viewpoints simply because they oppose yours. Simply amazing. --LightningHop 08:27, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)

Pure fantasy: Arnulf of Carinthia

"Arnulf of Carinthia (850-899) - King of East Francia (887-899), King of Italy (896-899) and Holy Roman Emperor (896-899) (Carantanian(Slovenian) mother)" -entered by 86.61.124.15. This is pure fantasy!
Even if it were original research, WP would not be the place for it.
Not one of the various theories concerning Arnulf's mother even remotely ventilates the idea that she might not have been of Bavarian descent.

--Marschner (talk) 17:56, 7 March 2009

(UTC)

Another user -77.38.2.72 - had re-entered the same irresponsible speculation ("Carantanian mother"). Arnulf's mother had a Teutonic name - Liutswind or Litwinde, her father is said to have been one Bavarian count Ernst, burgrave of Passau. Where do the Slav Carantanians come in? It hasn't even been proven that Arnulf's reported birthplace, the Mosaburch, was the one in Carinthia. There were several others Moosburg castles, e.g. one Mosapurc or Mosabyrga in Bavaria and one in today's Hungary (modern name: Zalavár). Besides, only a few miles from the Carinthian Moosburg (Austria) was the Carlovingian Kaiserpfalz, the imperial palace, of Karnburg (Slovene: Krnski grad). Does it really seem likely that father Carloman afforded two expensive-to-keep fortresses so close to each other?--Marschner (talk) 15:52, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

TARTINI

Surprisingly enough, only for Tartini is specified the nationality of the mother. Mothers of all known Slovenian are not mentioned. However, I have checked Wikipedia: it is written that the family of the mother was of Piran/Pirano and family name Zangrando. So also this information is wrong. She was Italian too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.9.155.197 (talk) 08:51, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Tito should be included in the section of "Military personel"

Tito was a son of a Slovenian mother. I think he should be also mentioned in this Article.

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