Talk:List of Polish Americans/Archive 1

Proposal for list inclusion

I have made the following proposal regarding the criteria for inclusion for these lists. If this is something that you have comments or ideas about, please provide feedback. Thanks. Wikibofh 9 July 2005 19:16 (UTC)

I have doubts about some names being considered as Polish-AMERICANS, like ex. Tadeusz Kosciuszko, Kazimierz Pulaski. They weren't Americans at all. They just imigrated to the USA and fight there.

Just did a huge reformation

I just reduced the size of the page dramatically in order to make more room. I took off people with "red links" who do not have pages. It just makes the article way too long.

JJstroker 23:30, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Kristin Bell

Does anyone have a good, first-hand source for her Polish ancestry? Every site I could find was shaky. I believe this info originally came from the IMDB, who now say she's of Irish descent! Anyway, until there's something first-hand (like an interview) I'll remove her. I think it may have come from her appearing the film, "Polish Wedding". MadJack 06:50, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Hello, actually there are several sites that mention that she is of Polish ancestry, one is TV.com and the another is NNDB.com http://www.nndb.com/ancestry/937/000043808/. She is of both Polish and Irish descent. So until there is a site that says SHE IS NOT Polish, she should remain on the list, don't you think?

IMDB and NNDB and TV tom are not reliable. They are Wikis - like ours - they are submitted to by fans. Most of the time they accept anything. An interview, in-depth profile - basically anything that looks like either Bell or Padalecki were personally involved in, is a good source. JackO'Lantern 22:14, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

This one is back on the list now. Mad Jack O'Lantern 21:03, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Jared Padalecki

Jared Padalecki is of Polish descent, his father is Polish, and Padalecki is a Polish surname. Almost any site that has a bio on Jared mentions his Polish ancestry yet his name is being removed off of this list. Is there a reason? Nanusia

The above may well be true (i.e. his father being Polish), but again there isn't any good source - like an interview. I know it's frustrating when something is obvious - i.e. yes he is likely of Polish descent - but we need a good source. JackO'Lantern 22:14, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

• Marilu Henner appeared on Regis and Kathy Lee (and several other talk shows) in 1999 while plugging her new book, and she stated several times that her father was Polish and her mother was Greek.

She also stated that she had a very interesting culinary background because of the diversity of the two cultures.

• Linda Kozlowski was interviewed by TV Guide in 1987. She was asked why she did not change her last name, and she replied "I am proud of my last name and my Polish heritage"

---

Nanusia 02:45, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

FYI, in regards to River & Joaquin Phoenix, many immigrants from Russia and Austria pre-WWI were actually Polish. Poland was wiped off the map by Russia, Prussia and Austria during the first waves immigration to the U.S. So culturally, most of those immigrants from this area should still be classified as Poles or Polish Jews, they just lived in a geographic area of Poland that was under Russian, Prussian or Austrian rule. I don't know if this is the case with the Phoenix family but it is a point of contention for others, and it should be noted. --Nanusia 03:37, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Well Phoenix's mother is ethnically/culturally Jewish anyway, it's a stretch to call her anything other than that. I think the Polish Jewish section should be deleted anyway - some people on it should be moved to the main article, and some just outright don't belong (Paul Newman?). But in the Phoenixes case I haven't seen any good source that they are in any way Polish or consider themselves such. However, thank you for your sources for Kozlowski and Henner, I will re-added them (if you haven't already). Mad Jack O'Lantern 05:02, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Ethnicity lists discussion

Please see discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) for current discussion of a potential policy to apply to all ethnicity lists on Wikipedia, including this one. JackO'Lantern 20:32, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Axel Rose

Just read on a Polish Tourism Website[1] that Axel Rose's Grandmother was Polish, however that is all I was able to find. Has anyone heard about this too?

Here's a partial family tree.[2] Doesn't look his maternal grandmohter was Polish, don't know about paternal. There's a new full book bio out, you could try looking there. Mad Jack O'Lantern 20:43, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Jack! BTW - Re: Jane Krakowski, I did find her name mentioned (linked to her winning the Oliver Award) in the Polish American Journal POLAM [3] but unfortunately, the story was featured in the hardcopy version and is just mentioned as a topic on their online site. POLAM researches and confirms Polish heritage and has been very acurate about including confirmed "Polish-Americans" in their literature. I believe this warrants putting her back on the list, at least in my opinion.--Nanusia 21:00, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

That sounds good enough for Krakowski's being back on the list. Mad Jack O'Lantern 21:05, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Carlos Bernard of "24"

I am looking for info to confirm that Carlos Bernard is of Polish descent. All I have is his birth name, Carlos Bernard PAPIERSKI and that he was born in Illinois. Some fansites have him down as a Latino-Pole but nothing conrete. --Nanusia 02:12, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

This just says he is "Hispanic" [4]. But of course that may not cover his full background. Mad Jack O'Lantern 05:13, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

People who were on the list, but aren't really Polish...

• Carroll Baker - kind of a weird story on her, see discussion on her page
• Charles Bronson - some kind of weird confusion about his ethnicity going around. The Wikipedia article used to say he was Polish, so that got copied and pasted around. Anyway, a CNN bio says he was Lithuanian.[5]. And nowadays, that's what the Wiki entry says too. USA Today says his first language was Lithuanian.[6]
• Belinda Carlisle Belinda has a Polish-American Stepfather but she is not Polish.
• Katie Couric - Katie is not Polish, her ancestry consists of German-Jewish, French and Irish/English [7]
• Nastassja Kinski - reports vary on whether her father actually had any Polish ancestry, but I doubt it. In any case, she isn't American...
• Jessica Lange [8] "Born in Minnesota, the granddaughter of Finnish and Dutch-German migrants"
• Phoenix family (River, Joaquin) - IMDB had up for a while that their mother is Polish. Another of their mistakes - she is the daughter of Jewish immigrants from Austria and Russia
• Paul Rudd - his parents were Jewish immigrants from England.[9] The IMDB decided that meant he was "half Polish half French". go figure.

JackO'Lantern 04:21, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

In the case of the Phoenix family, if the mother's ancestors are from Austria and Russia, we can't rule out the possibility of them being Polish unless we know where in the Austro-Hungarian and Russian Empires they were from, since both empires, as well as Prussia, had Poland partitioned out of existence from 1795 to 1918.---BDH

Major trim down

This page is too big. It also has a lot of boring lists. I mean are you really going to put down every semi famous Pole in literature, arts, sports etc? I think it should be trimed down and reserved to the most notable people and have seperate mainpage articles for the rest which can be linked from this page. The German page was huge as well and they did the same thing. I also think a good start to shorten the page is to reserve it to people who are 100 percent ethnically Polish or people who are the most noteable. So that would mean if someone has one polish grandparent and is a euro mut they should be taken off the list or a new category should be made for "Part Polish" or something. This page is huge so it makes people want to leave and not look at it. Someone should really trim it down bigtime.

JJstroker 23:01, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, Nanusia, but I am soon going to be sourcing this list the way I have recently sourced other ethnicity lists (i.e. see List of Swedish Americans or List of Vietnamese Americans. Basically only people explicitly described as "Polish Americans" or "Polish" should be on the list, in accordance with Wikipedia's Verifiability and No Original Research Policies (i.e. if the page's title is "Polish Americans", the page can include only people described as "Polish" or "Polish American" themselves in a reliable source, since we can't really make our own decisions on who can be considered Polish or not). This is being done across the board with the ethnicity lists on Wikipedia - I've finished maybe half. I think most of the people listed right now who don't just have a Polish grandparent or something will fit the definition, so it won't be a big deal. Mad Jack O'Lantern 05:14, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Started now... Mad Jack O'Lantern 06:17, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Interesting...the Italian-Americans page is a mess...it goes on and on for days, and without sourced information. Yet there is no discussion about cleaning or "trimming" that page. So why is the Polish-American page, which is much smaller in size, continually chosen to be "trimmed" down. Isn't that considered a bais and/or prejudice? --Nanusia 21:04, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

This isn't about trimming down. I disagree with JJStroker on that - there's no reason to trim down anything, as long as the info is properly sourced under Wikipedia policy. I haven't gotten to the Italian page yet (though I've done parts of List of Italian-American actors), precisely because it is big. Most of the smaller ethnicity-American pages have already been so sourced, and the rest will be in the next few days. Mad Jack O'Lantern 21:06, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, Jack, that was directed at JJStroker not you. --Nanusia 21:10, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Sources

I have sourced the list in accordance with Wikipedia's No Original Research and Verifiability policies. Basically, anyone described by a reliable source as "Polish" or "Polish-American" (i.e. as opposed to "of Polish descent", "Polish mother", etc.) is on the list. Here are the people I couldn't find anything for. If you have a reliable source that fits that please restore the names:

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING -- it is incomprehesible to me that the rules have been changed on this Polish-Americans page at will several times to suit the whim of someone who has nothing better to do. I give up. What you are doing is a disservice to all those who want to know more about Polish American contributions to our society. Do what you please, I am not going to participate anymore. --Nanusia 07:24, 20 May 2006 (UTC

I didn't change the rules or make them in the first place, but after several debates on other similar pages about who to list, it was made clear to me by several people that the only way to do this, if we have these lists at all, is to strictly follow Wikipedia policy, which states that we have to report what reliable sources say, and can't make up or use our own definitions as to who is a "xxx-American" or anything else. Sorry, I know how it sounds, but so far this system has been very helpful in cleaning up several lists and resolving certain conflicts. It's not that bad after a while. Mad Jack O'Lantern 08:01, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Jack, you have taken off people that were born in Poland and who were ethnically Polish, then became American citizens, and there are reliable sources that say so. I am not going to go through and re-source them. Though I understand the importance of being accurate, there comes a time where zealousness is not a virtue. --Nanusia 08:18, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

You're probably right, but if I took anyone off who was born in Poland, it was because the original source didn't describe them as Polish, and for whatever reason none of the sources I looked through when I re-researched them on Google said that either. I don't know why no one has described those people as "Polish". But I did keep people who were described as "Polish-born", even though it doesn't fully fit, but I thought it was close enough. Oh, and if I didn't care about this page, then I wouldn't have bothered looking for sources myself, which I did for this and all the other pags I've cleaned up in the past few days. In fact, I was dreading coming to this page and implementing this here, because I knew how hard you've worked on it. I was going to save it for last, but JJStoker gave me a good starting point. Now my most-dreaded page is the Greek-Americans one, because I know there are a few zealous editors on there, but never mind... Mad Jack O'Lantern 08:21, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Mad Jack, Just remember, if EVERYBODY isn't pissed off at you, you ain't doing your job. These lists are beyond problematic but I don't see them going anyway soon so we might as well clean them all up and really piss off alot of folks along the way.....--Backroomlaptop 13:09, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

FYI - No one is "pissed off" that Jack is doing his job, whatever that may be. I think Jack is a very dedicated person. The problem lies when individuals are trying to contribute to this site and are given different instructions every month on what they should and how they should contribute. An individual works hard to add and source information, and then all their work is torn apart in a matter of moments without an appropriate discussion - that is a type of totalitarianism. People would be far less inclined to getting "pissed off" if there was some sort of mature effort to communicate and work together. Last I heard, this was a community site that encourages the participation of the internet community....hmmm, guess I was wrong.--Nanusia 20:49, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Well I can guarantee you that these are the definitive "instructions", as they now are for every other ethnicity page. There have been attempts and policy proposals (and I was even involved in some) to try and set some sort of standards that all the lists would follow - but they were all eventually defeated or voted down simply because we can only really follow Wikipedia policy itself, which is fairly simple. But do note, however, that when I removed names/sources yesterday, a majority of them were added by me as well. So I am undoing my own work as well, but it has to be done and all the lists have to be put in synch, which they currently are. Oh, and of course we are supposed to work as a community, but we have to follow the basic policies. Make no question about the fact that I made a mistake by not letting you know sooner, or not implementing the policies earlier. Mad Jack O'Lantern 20:55, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

And what happens if someone's source disappears? What if it is from an online article that is no longer available? How can facts last? Michael 00:39, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Good question. We usually have the quote from the source, though. If it's a print source, it can be cited to that. There are sometimes caches of old web pages out there, too. But yes, sometimes pages just vanish completely... Mad Jack 00:41, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

And if we don't we just lose information that may be perfectly valid but impossible to access a source to so as to confirm it? Michael02:30, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

PBS Documentary "The Polish-Americans"

The 1998 PBS program "The Polish Americans", which was co-produced by WLIW21 (New York), WMHT17 (Schenectady) and WVIZ25 (Cleveland), mentioned the following actors as offical Polish-Americans: CARROLL BAKER, JACK PALANCE, GLORIA SWANSON and LORETTA SWITT, along with several others including: Poli Negri, Stephanie Powers, Gilda Grey, Bobby Vinton, Adam Makowicz, Col. Francis s. Gabreski, and CASEY SIEMASZKO (who narrated the entire program). Relying on the internet is ineffective when trying to verify ethnicity; it is far too limited. Hardcopy newspapers, magazines and encyclopedias, as well as, TV spots, are more likely to mention ethnic affiliation. Sad to say but this Polish-Americans list has gone to the dogs.

Are you sure about some of those? Jack Palance? He's very well known to be Ukrainian-American (see [10]) and I bet he'd be surprised to be described as Polish. There's no problem at all with using off-line sources, but if this documentary included Palance then it may have some errors. Carroll Baker is a weird story which I am not sure about. It seems there's a rumor her original last name was "Karolina Pieralski" (or something to that extent), but no reliable sources list it as that, and several actually list her parents' names as "William and Virginia Baker". I'll see if I can properly cite the other people you mentioned. Mad Jack O'Lantern 08:12, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

In fact, I just checked, and NNDB lists her parents' names as [11] William Baker and Virginia Duffy, although they repeat the old "Karolina Pieralski" thing as well! I guess they don't mind contradicting themselves. Mad Jack O'Lantern 08:16, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I do not believe that www.nndb.com is a reliable source on that one, and I do not believe that PBS would make such major errors as they must receive permission from the actor (or anyone) to use their photo (image) and name on film. Jack Palance is both Polish and Ukrainian, at least that is what he has claimed for the past 40 years.

Do you have a source for Palance? All I've ever seen is Ukrainian. Baker, as I said, is a weird one. NNDB is not a reliable source for anything, but Baker's parents' names are listed as William and Virginia Baker in several places, including normally reliable sites like [12] and [13]. I guess a possible solution to this mystery would be to find one of the autobiography books she has written Mad Jack O'Lantern 08:28, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I also can't find a William and Virginia Piekarski on the 1930 US census. Mad Jack O'Lantern 08:35, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

• Here is a link to a review of this program [14]. The review mentions Gloria Swanson as being Polish American and states that Casey Siemaszko is the narrator of this all Polish-American ensemble. Ya, know if it walks like duck and talks like a duck....it's a duck. --IsisTheQueen 06:31, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

• An additional link for more information on this program[15]

Nick Adams

Nick Adams' father was Ukrainian, even your source says so - shouldn't there be a mention that Adams is at least half Ukrainian? He isn't even on the Ukrainian-Americans list. Someone who created or edited his article claimed his father was Lithuanian (I left a comment in the TALK or discussion area). Adams, Palance and John Hodiak - are all half and half (Pole and Ukrainian). Hodiak lived in Hamtramack , MI and identified with being Polish and Ukrainian. Palance was raised in Lattimer which was pre-dominantly Polish populated town in Luzcerne County, PA. He tended to ID himself as Polish in the 1970's. Polish-Ukrainian couples were a common occurance in PA and other places on the East Coast during the first waves of immigration to the States before WWII because of need to be with people who were similar to their own culture and language in a strange and new country. Anyhow, I hope that Nick Adams is accurately identified at some point. --IsisTheQueen 23:55, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Do you have a good source that Palance referred to himself as Polish? That would be good for getting him on here. If you want, you can certainly add the fact that Adams' father was Ukrainian to the citation we have (especially since it's from the same source) Mad Jack 07:58, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

No - I have no evidence for Palance, just watched a lot of TV and I remember that as a kid hearing him talk about his Polish roots from Europe, and at the time, he really didn't speak about being Ukrainian that came later. I think he has kind of recognized that he can say Ukrainian now a days and know that he will finally NOT be identified as a Russian - McCarthy era and the Cold War ended but left somewhat of a stigma on those people who were originally from parts of the USSR. Thanks for your suggestion. I'm trying to figure out how this all works out. Reading these discussion boards (not just here) I get the impression that people get easily rattled and I don't want to step on toes though I will make it my business to step on toes as soon I as figure all this out!--IsisTheQueen 08:39, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Zsa Zsa

On TV during one of the finals that she was skating at the broadcasters said that Zsa Zsa was on her way to getting her Polish passport. And then they blah blah blahed that she has dual citizenship because her Polish grandparents on her mom's side never relinquished their Polish citizenship so that means Zsa Zsa (really annoying name) and her mother are still considered Polish citizens and that's also why she has been skating for her "other" country, Poland. --IsisTheQueen 09:17, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Leelee Sobieski

Leelee Sobieski, according to her own Wikipedia entry, is the daughter of a man (Jean) born in France to Polish parents. Please return her to the list.---BDH

• Stanley Dunin - aerospace engineer

Elonka, Stanley Dunin's daughter, wrote his Wikipedia article. I think that is as first hand as someone gets. - jpk

• This is, in fact, part of the problem with the Dunin articles themselves. Though Elonka Duning may well be reliable, anything she contributes without citing to some kind of source is definitely Original Research - it may well be accurate, but it's not verfiable -or at least, not easily verifiable (Because Wikipedia users, though they may well be the real thing when it comes to who they claim to be - and I'm sure Dunin is - are still unreliable). That's why both the Dunin pages were nominated for deletion, and there are still a lot of facts on Stanley Dunin's page that are hard to actually confirm. Mad Jack 22:58, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I would think that for the purpose of confirming whether Elonka is herself (as well as her Polish-born father) a Polish-American, her own website presenting her family tree (which is listed as a reference) would be more than enough. This is ridiculous -- you people have taken a radical interpretation of the wiki policies. -jpk

If you will review the articles at my "press" page [16], you will see that plenty of media outlets (CNN, NPR, MSNBC, AP, BBC, etc.) regard me and my websites as reliable sources. Please also review WP:AUTO and Wikipedia:Verifiability. Personal websites are considered valid sources as long as it's not for particularly "aggrandizing" information, and is not contradicted by other published sources. --Elonka 03:22, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I didn't say "you" weren't a reliable source, I said Wikipedia users aren't supposed to be reliable sources, as far as I can tell. Personal websites are good, most of the time. I haven't taken a look at your personal website, yet. However, I am not the boss of this page and if someone wants to add a name sourced to something reliable that says someone is Polish-American or Polish, if they are also American, then I don't see why they don't feel free to do that. Mad Jack 04:02, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Sigh.... do the just-added sources actually describe either of the Dunins themselves (as opposed to their ancestors) as Polish or Polish-American? Mad Jack 04:20, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

- Actually, yes. I was given private access to current family tree documents and notes but I was only able to reference the site for privacy reasons. Stanley Dunin was born in Warsaw, Poland and later emigrated to the U.S., became an American Citizen. He is a Polish-American. He married Elsie Ivancich, a Croatian-American. His daughter Elonka is both a Polish and Croatian American. I viewed the source and can verify the above to be true. -jpk

Many of the individuals that have been removed from the list are in the National Polish-American Sports Hall of Fame. What kind of research leads to removing prominent Polish-Americans???? You might has well get rid of the whole list - jpk

• I know about the Polish-American Hall of Fame, but does it have some kind of website or online source for it where I or anyone can see the names listed? We can't rely on the Wikipedia page for it, for obvious reasons. :) (Or an offline source, etc. anywhere besides Wikipedia where the names in the Hall of Fame are listed) Mad Jack 08:28, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

http://www.polishsportshof.com/inductee.html - this was not hard to find, just enter "National Polish-American Sports Hall of Fame" in the search engine and it's the first site to pop up. I don't know what methods you are using to confirm an individual as Polish-American but you have missed the mark.-jpk DONNA MAKOWSKI-ONLY FEMALE ATTORNEY,LICENSED BOXING MANAGER/ILLINOIS IN THE u.s.

Scarlett Johansson

Is half Polish Jewish. I kind of doubt that anyone, including herself, has ever described her as Polish or a Polish-American. This one is very iffy. Mad Jack 07:30, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Many sites, though, including some news sites, classify her as "Polish/Danish" or "Polish/Jewish/Danish". I'm inclined to disagree with Mad Jack on this matter, but let's have some others share their thoughts. Michael 08:25, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, do these web sites classify as as actually "Polish/Danish" or do they just say "Of Danish, etc. descent"? None of the sites, however, are particularly reliable - mostly trivia sites and the like. The only first-hand sources interviewing Johansson or her family members don't even specify that her mother's family was from Poland[17][18][19] Mad Jack 08:31, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Some say otherwise: [20][21] [22]

Please share your thoughts on this matter. Michael 08:35, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah but these aren't reliable sources - they're trivia sites. The only reliable sources are like the ones I gave - something from the person's own mouth. Mad Jack 08:37, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Ah, but at the same time, her father is from Denmark, so she may easily say that, but it would be less likely for her to say, in everyday conversation, that her mother is Polish if she isn't from Poland. In those articles, she stated where her parents are from. Michael 08:39, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

You mean in the article I gave? And again, it doesn't even matter much if her mother's ancestors were from Poland - which is likely. I'd venture to guess about half of the Jewish population of NY have ancestors from Poland - but none of these people have ever been referred to as Polish-Americans and don't think of themselves as such - and are definitely not included in the total census number of Polish-Americans. Regardless of any of that - we don't even have shakey sources that actually say she is a Polish-American. Mad Jack 08:42, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Removals

I removed some people who I could definitely not find described as actually being Polish-Americans (i.e. "Polish/Russian father", "my background is Irish/French/Native/Polish"). If one wants to put a person on a "List of X", one must find a source that specifically says the person they are adding is an "X", not "of X descent", "has X,Y,Z,D heritage", etc., or anything else that in a Wikipedia contributor's opinion would make that person an "X". This is true for all of Wikipedia, and applies to lists as it does to articles. See User:Grace Note's and others' posts on Talk:List of British Jews or Talk:List of Greeks for all of this. I left a few names in where the sources didn't actually say the person was Polish-American. I don't have time right now but I will look for sources that say that for those. Mad Jack 06:08, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Didn't you state that if we have a direct quote from someone saying he or she is of a certain descent that that is relevant? Now, even going off Wikipedia's definition of what a Polish American is, it is an "American citzen of Polish descent." I am unclear as to how someone may be of a certain heritage in that case and not considered to be of that heritage at the same time when the definition is stated quite clearly. A Polish American is someone of Polish descent-it needn't be someone who stated directly that they are Polish American, for example. Stating you are of Polish descent inherently implies that. How doesn't it? Michael 07:00, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

If you want to call someone an "X" you have to have a source that calls something an "X". If someone is of "X descent", then they may be "X American" or they may not be. That's up to whichever reliable sources - including the person themselves, obviously - to announce. But doing "X descent + Y definition = X in my opinion" is precisely the kind of synthesis of published info that is not allowed under Wikipedia:No Original Research. Stating they are of Polish descent may imply it, as you've said, but we can only post hard facts, not implications. Regardless of all that, on a personal note, I still can't fathom the interest some people - not just you - have in adding celebrities to as many categories or lists based on ethnicity is possible. I am all for noting verified ethnic background in the article, despite the fact that many others think it's irrelevant, but as for the categories and the lists - I just can't see the encyclopedic value of adding people based on various grandparents or parents, when they themselves may well not describe themselves as "X-American". "X-American" is a very specific label, just like "homosexual", "Republican" or "gardener". If we want to use the label - we need someone else to use it on that person first. We can't be the first. Mad Jack 07:05, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

As for JoJo herself, Wikipedia:Citing sources says that "This means that any material that is challenged and has no source may be removed by any editor." So, in this case, I challenge the fact that JoJo can be specifically described as a Polish-American. I have seen no sources that describe her as a Polish-American, or as Polish (since we know she is an American). All I've seen is her saying that she has an interest in her family background, which includes Polish/French/etc. She does not describe herself as "Polish" (i.e. "I am Polish") or "Polish-American". Mad Jack 07:09, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

That's what remains unclear to me. In the interview, she comments that she is of Polish descent, how is that uncited? It means she is of Polish descent. Where exactly is the mean by which you are defining Polish Americans actually listed? Michael 21:46, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Exactly, she says she has French, Polish, Native American and Irish ancestry. That is perfectly fine to note in exactly that format on her page. But at which point is she referred to as a Polish-American? Or "Polish"? As I said, those are specific labels, and we apply them when reliable sources apply them. Otherwise, we're doing original research - our own synthesis of published info - i.e. We see something that says she has Polish ancestry, among others, and we translate it to labelling her as "Polish-American", even if no one else has done so in her case. If JoJo says "I'm Polish" or if something calls JoJo a "Polish-American", then we should definitely include her in a list that is titled Polish-Americans. As for a definition? There is none and we should have none and no criteria, except for the same criteria we use on any other article on Wikipedia - if a reliable source says a person is specifically "X", we can put that person on a "List of X" and call them an "X". If a reliable source didn't call that person specifically "X", we can't either, and we can't use any other statements that in our opinion makes that person an "X", like "X grandmother", "X/Y/S descent", "I have X and Y heritage", etc. Mad Jack 22:43, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

So we go don't apply the definition listed on Wikipedia where it defines Polish American, Italian Americans, German Americans, etc.? Michael 22:59, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

If we want to define a "Polish American", for example, we can cite a reputable source for that definition and put the definition in the article. But what does that have to do with specifically JoJo? Not every American who has Polish ancestry is automatically a Polish-American. We need the sources out there to tell us specifically who is. Mad Jack 23:02, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

If a source defines a Polish American as an "American of Polish descent", then that implies that Americans of Polish ancestry are Polish Americans. Michael 23:04, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

But we don't go on implications, do we? We go on hard facts as reported by reliable sources. We can't do the math ourselves, i.e. "If Polish-American equals the very vague definition of "Polish descent"" + this source says person X has a Polish grandmother = therefore person X must be a Polish-American is original research. We need a good source to do that math for us. (not to mention that not every person who is even 100% Polish considers themselves a Polish-American) Mad Jack 23:07, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

But whether or not they "consider" themselves to be Polish Americans is not a part of the definition of "Polish American' as we have it defined on Wikipedia. It's defined on a strict factual basis-an "American of Polish descent." Michael 23:10, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

How is that a strict basis? It's a vague definition and it has easy holes in it. Like, if someone had a Polish ancestor 1000 years ago, are they a Polish-American? Also, note that it says "of Polish descent". It does not say "of Polish, French, Irish descent". Either way, we can't do the math ourselves. Self-consideration is absolutely a factor here. A person can decide that they do not consider themselves Polish, despite being 100%, and want to be referred to as "American" without the hyphen. Non-hyphened Americans exist out there, y'know :) . Mad Jack 23:12, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Then, perhaps you should change the definition to mean someone who considers him or herself to be a Polish American or a French American. That seems to efface the meaning, in a sense, though. Michael 23:31, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

But it's not exclusively through self-identification. "X-American" is a label that could refer to a national, ethnic, cultural or self-identified identity. Or several of them. Or just one. Maybe I should've put it to you before in another way - a "Polish American" is indeed an American of Polish descent. But - is every American of Polish descent a Polish-American? Mad Jack 00:21, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Going under strict interpretation, then yes, based on Wikipedia's standards. Michael 00:30, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean? The article (if we chose to trust it) doesn't say that every American of Polish descent is a Polish-American. It just says every Polish-American is an American of Polish descent, which is definitely true. Mad Jack 00:33, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Giving you a good example the horse article says a horse is "a large odd-toed ungulate mammal". OK. Does this mean every large odd-toed ungulate mammal is a horse? Definitely not. Same thing here. Though a person may fit the definition, it does not automatically mean that they are actually a Polish-American, just as every odd-toed ungulate mammal is not a horse - though some are. We need the sources to tell us who is. Mad Jack 00:36, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

The horse's definition is further expanded, though, while such as the Polish Americans definition moves on to various things which tend to be (but are not always) typical of Polish Americans. Most is strictly a historical background. The article doesn't leave room for exceptions, though, and neither does Wikipedia. If we cannot consider someone a Polish American because they don't expressly say that (but still say they are of Polish heritage), then how can we be so loose in our interpretation of something else? Michael 00:39, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

All the horse article says is "The horse (Equus caballus or Equus ferus caballus) is a large odd-toed ungulate mammal, one of ten modern species of the genus Equus." Then it goes on to give you a history of the horse. You wouldn't put someone one a list of horses unless a reliable source called it a horse, would you? The Polish-American article gives the definition of a Polish-American, and then gives you a history of the Polish-American. It certainly does not say that every American of Polish descent is a Polish-American, just as the horse article does not say that every single large odd-toed, etc. is a horse. If the Polish-American definition explicitly claimed to apply to every American of Polish descent, then it would indeed be absolute and not really give much room to argument. But it doesn't do that. It just tells you what someone who is defined as a "Polish-American" is - it doesn't tell you that every American of Polish descent is a Polish-American. Who specifically is or isn't is up to the sources, including the people themselves, to say. Mad Jack 00:44, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

• Ok, you two, I think you both need to relax and stop with the compulsion towards being so anal. This is getting really stupid and nit picky to the point of absurdity. Mad Jack you removed a lot of Polish-Americans awhile ago and you did it recklessly and now Michael is throwing things back on recklessly. Wikipedia is flawed to the 9's and neither of you can "fix" the problem -- rigid rules aren't going to solve the problem. Why don't you add a "People of Polish Decent" section Or just place a remark next to the person's name that he or she had a Polish parent or in the case of Tea Leoni, a Polish paternal grandmother. There are many interviews with Tea that talk about her Polish grandmother Helenka Adamski(??? - I don't know the last name),who was a Polish film actress and who was a huge influence on Tea's life and her decision to become an actress - Tea even had a Polish nanny. So even grandparents can give someone a prominent ethnic identity. So let's try to solve the problem with a practical solution and we will be done with this control freak battle ground. UGH! Cheers. --IsisTheQueen 01:25, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. Michael 01:34, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

A Polish nanny? Come on! I will remove any name on this list that is not sourced to a source that calls that person a Polish-American, or Polish. Editor decisions can not over ride Wikipedia policy, which states that we can not call people what reliable sources have not called them. Again, this is an encyclopedia, not a random collection of information. Any list that puts someone on because of a grandparent's nationality or ethnicity is not exactly an encyclopedia-level list; this isn't a One-drop rule-based list. If you wish to list everyone in the US with some level of Polish ancestry, you should start a website or something akin to that. But this is a list of Polish-Americans - and being a Polish-American is encyclopedic enough for an article and a list of people who are, indeed, Polish-American, not who had a Polish grandmother, mother, or nanny, but who are themselves Polish-Americans and have been described as exactly, and I mean exactly, that by a reliable source, including in their own words. Mad Jack 04:41, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and by the way, rigid rules that fit the policies to a T do solve problems. For one, it solves the problem of editors deciding who is or is not a Polish-American, an Italian-American, an Atheist, a Republican, a Jew, a transsexual, or any other label out there. We don't get to decide these things. We only get to report exactly what others said on them. Wikipedia is just a messenger, and it delivers the message exactly as sent. Mad Jack 05:00, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

And a third point - the Tea Leoni thing sounds like interesting information (well not the Polish nanny thing, obviously, but the inspired by grandmother, etc.). If you are aware of that and have a source for it, it is precisely the kind of thing that should be in her article, to add depth and detail to it. Mad Jack 05:27, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Umm, whatever, Mad Jack, your behavior completely confuses me, from teenage dictator to helpful mentor in an instant. Are you an employee or an official representative for Wikipedia that you believe that you have the right or may I say, obligation to remove anything that YOU believe does not fit YOUR interpretation of Wiki policy? Even American Law, which set forth to be very structured, is allowed to be interpreted and modified, otherwise we would not have a single lawyer out there and our entire modern legal system would not exist. Wikipedia is not better when its rigid, it's better when it is practically applied to a given situation. By reading this USER TALK page anyone can see that you've done such a fine job of running off contributors. Congratulations on your vigilance! BTW: Here is the quote from the aricle on Tea Leoni: August 2001; TALK Magazine. "Leoni's paternal grandmother, Helenka Adamowska, was a Polish silent film actress who later headed up the U.S. committee for UNICEF, serving as its volunteer president for 27 years. (Leoni also does behind-the-scenes work and, more recently, public service announcements for UNICEF, "so the generations stay involved.") Last year she went through the UCLA film archives and tracked down her grandmother's movies. "At one point she even had billing above Clara Bow," she says. "David and I put in the tape and I immediately started crying. I was very close to her, but I didn't know *this* woman. Suddenly here was this beautiful moving bird, with these arms emoting this way and that, swinging them around, very, very dramatic. And I kept thinking, My God, that's where I get my arms, that's where I get my hands." --IsisTheQueen 06:56, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Just tryin' to bring the lists in order under Wikipedia policy. It is clear that she respects her grandmother, but what does that have to do with her grandmother being Polish? Speaking of which, you should create an article for her grandmother, who seems to pass the notability standards. You could definitely list her grandmother with this source, which describes her as "Polish" (she was American). By the way, I should have quoted this earlier, from Wikipedia:No original research: Editors often make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article in order to advance position C. However, this would be an example of a new synthesis of published material serving to advance a position, and as such it would constitute original research. "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article. Just so you know that I didn't make up the whole thing where we can't connect A and B to make C. I.e. make a Polish-American out of someone who was described as something else. Mad Jack 07:00, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

• Ya know, I really don't care about Tea Leoni and her grandmother, I'm not even Polish or Polish American. But I think that if someone is described as being of Polish descent in internet articles and then is seen on TV talking about being Polish then they should be on this dang list. You can still be accurate but you can create a system that is more inclusive instead of so gosh darn restrictive that you miss putting some really notable people on this list or any other list. What about all the names that you, yourself removed, like in the Sports category,and they were later EASILY cited with Wiki qualified sources and put back. What if someone had not cared to find that out? Those removed individuals would not be on the list because of you and you lack of accuracy. I don't believe that you, Mad Jack, should be calling all the shots here, let the grown ups who are no longer teenagers have some say too.--IsisTheQueen 07:33, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
  • I'm not calling the shots, the Wikipedia policy that I have justed cited is (though of course I am an ardent enforcer of this policy). And it specifically says we can not "connect the dots" between A and B and make C. As for this grown up/teenager thing, you're bordering on Personal Attacks. My age has nothing to do with this. If someone "talks about being Polish on TV" they should be on the list, if they say "Being Polish, this or that" or "I am Polish", etc. But if they say they "have a Polish grandmother", then it is just your/someone else's opinion that they are talking about being Polish themselves. This isn't about putting in the most notable people. It's about putting in people who have actually been cited as being Polish Americans, whether by themselves or by reliable others. As for the burden of proof, that is on those who wish to keep the content, not on me. Yes, I removed the people in the athletes section, and then someone provided sources that called them Polish-Americans, so I immediately restored them. The world doesn't end if they are off the page for a day, a week, or a month. But proper citations make this into a legit article about people who are actually Polish-Americans, as opposed to people who have some kind of Polish connection somewhere. Mad Jack 07:39, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

• Mad Jack, I do not want to drag this on any longer but I just have to say something about your last post. You are right, the world won't end if someone is on or off the page for a day, a week or month, so why in the world did you take it upon yourself to dismantle the list when you did? You removed blocks of individuals in such a hurry without warning or discussion and you did not even have the manners or respect to consult with any of the contributors, i.e. Nanusia. In response to your last comment, "But proper citations make this into a legit article about people who are actually Polish-Americans, as opposed to people who have some kind of Polish connection somewhere." Of course we need proper citations, again you bring up things that we all agree on, and I don't think anyone is trying to place people on this list that have "some kind of Polish connection somewhere". I am just trying to open your mind to the fact that this interpretation of the Wiki policy is too rigid and it leads to inaccuracy and way too much bickering. For example, in the case of Casey Siemaszko, (who you so quickly removed from the Polish-Americans list) articles state that his father was Polish-born, a Polish prisioner of war and emigrated to the US, and they also describe Casey as being of Polish descent. Additional sources state his involvement with Polish organizations through his life, i.e. Polish dance troupe, Polish language Rep Theater and that Casey narrarated "The Polish-Americans" program on PBS. I would not call this a "Polish connection somewhere". Yet, because who ever wrote Casey's articles did not describe him as a Polish-American, you decided through your interpretation of Wiki policy that he does not qualify to be a Polish-American. The terms Polish-American and "of Polish descent" are used interchangably by many writers (right or wrong) so you have to "turn your brain on" eventually. This is really a game of semantics, and this rigidness does not promote in properly identifying individuals. Your interpretation of the policy leaves absolutley NO room for a situation like Casey's (and so many others) therefore, it is really counter-productive, as is your (over)zealousness to enforce it.

--IsisTheQueen 21:36, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

• • Well, the thing about Casey Siemaszko is that he is so almost certainly a Polish-American that a source will say exactly that, sooner or later. It is too bad that none or few of the interviews from the time he was betterknown - the late 1980s - survive. I have no doubt somewhere there he says "I am polish" or whatever phrase to that regard. And that's part of the difficulty of editing a major encyclopedia - even when you are positively certain that something is true, but no one says exactly what you are certain off in a good source, you have to sit on it. Another difficulty is that sources for older people do not survive or never existed online - like Siemazsko. I removed the names hastily, yes, and maybe I should not have done so that fast, but at that point I had just sourced/enforced this the majority of other lists and I needed a good opening to do so here, which User JJStoker gave me in his comments. However, Wiki policy leaves little room for doubt. As I've shown you, it explicitly says that we can not connect "A" and "B" to make "C", which a lot of these lists had done. I believe Casey Siemazsko is on the list now with something good, is he not? The term "of X descent" is not the same as X or X-American, precisely because it is so vague. It could mean someone's great-grandfather was X. It could mean a lot of things - but what it does not do is place the person with that exact label that we want to. Mad Jack 21:53, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

• I think civil discourse is the way to go, and if it has to be case by case then let it be. It appears that you are the only editor that has such a serious and strong commitment to enforcing Wiki policy to these ethnicity boards, and as we all know, dictatorships never create positive outcomes. You will always have discontent if people feel disenfranchised. Since Wiki is a forum for the masses, we need to have good rules but when the rules need work then the masses should have input = democracy. You are experiencing "rebellions" on all the ethnic pages because people are upset and frustrated. The rules are not practical, and at times seem ridiculous because they are limited to using documentation which is usually conveniently found on the internet (as you stated above), and these internet sources may not state things PRECISELY the way the rules say they should so then you have zero. How are these rules productive then when they breed hostility? As far as User JJStoker, sounds like you got sucked into his agenda. He was a provocateur, bully and possible sock-puppet and thank goodness, is now banned from Wiki. It's sad that we can't work together and create a good solution to this issue. --IsisTheQueen 22:31, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Yes, I am aware of what JJStoker was, but that's irrelevant. I don't understand what you are staying. We can not have any criteria of our own for anything. Whether you, me, or anyone else likes it or not, we just report. This discontent was created specifically on pages - the Greek and Polish mainly - with the French being an outrageous recent example- where editors "enjoyed" the priviledge of listing anyone that had any "X" ancestry, or even an X last name, regardless of common sense, policy, etc. I would be displeased too. But this is an encyclopedia, not a Polish heritage geneology web site. If we have a page called Polish Americans, and an accompanying list, which we probably should, we can not pick and chose who is or is not a Polish-American. We don't have that kind of power. We can't say we'll stop at a grandmother or at one parent. We can only report what other sources have said - who they called a Polish-American. You wouldn't open Britannica and see everyone with a Polish grandmother listed under Polish-Americans, would you? (However, if you did, then we can use that as a source to list them here - just saying). I do not see why, as an encyclopedia, we have to be here to satisfy people's personal desires, rather than put out content that fits in with the policies. Mad Jack 22:42, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

LOL - Mad Jack what do you expect from a PUBLIC forum? Of course people want to satisfy their personal desires, and this is never going to change, it's called EGO. Listen, I am not talking about placing people that have distant Polish or whatever roots on these lists but I think if the source that is reputable says that so and so is of Polish descent and their parent is Polish then the rules should allow for this but it looks like the individuals who created this policy are infallible and the rest of us who disagree are anarchists. BTW - I have to laugh at your comment from the previous post, "Another difficulty is that sources for older people do not survive or never existed online - like Siemazsko." Come on, Casey is 45, a year or so younger than Madonna. I don't consider them "older people". Maybe somone like Liz Taylor, or Larry King, but age 45 is still quite young maybe not as young as you are. :) --IsisTheQueen 23:00, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, you know what I meant by that comment - that when Casey was a mid-level star, the internet did not exist and the sources never made their way online, or at least did not surive. Madonna is still in the public eye - but you were not comparing them anyway. Feel free to laugh - I am here to amuse, primarily, though it seems I have mostly failed to do so. There's another bit on the policy that I have not quoted before - you don't want to hear it, I'm sure - but "But in an article about Jones, the paragraph is putting forward the editor's opinion that, given a certain definition of plagiarism, Jones did not commit it. Regardless of the fact that his opinion appears to be supported, other things being equal, by the Chicago Manual of Style, it remains the editor's opinion." So in an article about whether or no Person X is Polish-American, the part is putting forward the editor's opinion that, given a certain definition of a Polish-American, Person X is Polish-American. But regardless of the fact that this opinion may be supported by whichever definition of Polish-American, it remains the editor's opinion - if it has not been expressed anywhere else specifically on that person. Mad Jack 23:06, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

IsistheQueen, could I direct you to WP:V and WP:NOR. You need to read them carefully. Jack is not a "dictator" here. He is trying to make this article conform with those policies and he has the weight of the consensus that built those policies behind him. In principle, no article on Wikipedia should carry information or "facts" that are not verifiable by reference to a reputable source. Wikipedia does not judge and it does not set criteria. It reports others judgements and others' criteria. We do not decide what makes someone "Polish-American", "Chinese", "gay" or any other thing. We don't say "well, it says in the Daily X that he once went to Mass, so he must be a Catholic" or "his father was Polish, so he's a Polish-American". We report what our sources say. If you cannot find a reputable source that says Joe Xinski is a "Polish-American", you may not add him to this list. This is very simple and straightforward. There is no real need for bickering. You either have a source or you don't. Grace Note 00:38, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Grace Note, I know the policy and I disagree with it. I am expressing my opinion. I think Mad Jack can hold his own and does not need you to defend him. In fact, I think we reached a point that nothing more could be said. He is quite aggressive and resolute and has set forth the tone for most of the discourse around here so as they say "he made his bed, now he can lay in it". BTW - if you read all the threads, I am the least of his enemies, so why you have directed your post at me is a mystery. I have not tried to override any of Mad Jack reverts, or add anything that does not comply with Wiki policy. I am just stating what I have observed and concurring with others about the Wiki policy. I think some of Mad Jack's actions are completely over the top for a community based web site; he is a contributor/editor like the rest of us and he should be respectful like we all should be. I tried to point his lack of consistency to show him and others that the rules are flawed, he so easily dictates yet he is not always right, and that there is always room for conversation and debate. I definitely believe that Wiki needs to re-examine this policy or delete these ethnicity lists but that's my opinion. --IsisTheQueen 02:09, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you IsistheQueen. People cannot have it both ways. From what I have seen, the policy seems to be viewed as viable and lacking of issues by incredibly few. Michael 06:39, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

"Some guy's website"

Is a reliable source? Who is "Daniela Skrzypczak"? Carroll Baker (see her discussion page) may well be a complete mistake, and I don't know about Bacall. Large listings of names are tricky to use as sources, is there anything that separates this from just "some guy's website"? The fact that most of the images have died don't help the page seem very reputable. Mad Jack 21:04, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Needless to say, Angelfire, Geocities, etc. are the very definition of "some guy's website". I suppose, if one of these sites have a transcript of a reliable source - i.e. you know an interview, etc. - that would be reliable - especially if it was a scanned image. But in on themselves, anyone can register and start up a Geocities site. Mad Jack 21:28, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Polish Americans on list of Poles

Can someone editing this page please explain to users on TALK:List of Polish Jews why we should not put Americans born of Polish descent on lists of Poles or Polish Jews. Thanks. 141.213.212.42 12:46, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Section on American Jews with recent Polish Ancestors

The title of the section seems to fit better with Jewish Americans who were born in the U.S. but whose parents emigrated from Poland -- yet there so many Polish born Jews on the list and keep getting placed back. Why would you put a person in this category if they were a Polish Jew born and raised in Poland? Many of the scientists/composers who I moved from this list to the main Polish-Americans section were living and working in Poland until late in life so it only makes sense to represent them correctly. Their nationality was Polish since they were born on Polish soil, even if their ethnicity and religion was Jewish. So really, they should be considered Polish-American Jews or Polish-Jewish Americans. Perhaps one of those would be a better title? The curret title is confusing. Any objections to changing it?--24.5.130.89 08:18, 10 January 2007 (UTC)