Talk:List of Nairs

Untitled

I added K. Madhavan in the list of Nair freedom fighters. (reference: http://www.hindu.com/mag/2006/01/29/stories/2006012900140400.htm) Kris Gopalakrishnan is not a Nair. He is a Tamil Brahmin settled in Trivandrum. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.56.5.100 (talk) 21:11, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

user SITUSH please don't remove incredible data s from this page — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.173.206.91 (talk) 08:25, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

The names of all people included in the article must be capable of being verified using reliable sources as being a member of the Nair community. The names which I have removed so far appear to fail that test and also WP:NLIST. It is likely to get worse as I have asked a question at WP:IND regarding whether people with the last name of Nair, Menon etc can be assumed to be members of the community. My gut feeling is that they cannot.

The way to avoid deletions is to provide evidence that the person is a Nair community member, using a citation in the article for that person (or in this article if there is not a separate one for the individual). - Sitush (talk) 08:39, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Dear Sitush, You're right about not all people with the surname Nair being Nairs from Kerala. ie. Mira Nair the film director is a Punjabi Khatri. That said it's not very rational nor even logical to apply absolutist thinking like this to all Nair surnames like Menon. If the person is of Indian origin all Menons have been shown to be from Kerala, with the exception of MeMons which is a Gujarati muslim surname. Secondly you state there are people with the Nair surname in " Scotland " these are McNairs not Nairs, and even if there are Nair surnames in Scotland, you can definitely imagine a Scottish person joining the Indian police force in Kerala can't you and then becoming a director and chief of it? Oh no Wait, not just a " scottish " person but a scottish person with the surname " Nair " who just so happens to look Indian and not caucasian. Are you trying particularly hard to be obtuse? Fact: There are absolutely no prominent Scottish people anywhere in India, let alone a scottish Nair joining the Indian police force. Thus, your edits are unwarranted and based on what you say " my gut feeling is that they cannot " explain to me what your gut feeling has to do with a wikipedia article? My gut feeling tells me you're full of POV, which emanates from almost every post on Nairs you make. I however am rational enough not to bring my " gut feelings " onto Wikipedia unless they are completely substantiated. You can't just go Willy nilly on articles pouring out your gut feelings. 77.100.152.52 (talk) 05:08, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Edit request from 117.193.34.102, 30 September 2011

Distinguished Police personnel and Indian Police Service (IPS) Officers

   K Chandrasekharan Nair - Ex Inspector General Of Kerala, in whose name Chandrasekharan Nair 
                           Stadium in Triavndrum is dedicated for his Services to Sports.
   K Shankaran Nair - Former Chief of RAW (Indian Intelligence Agency) and Member of Imperial  
                      Police Service
   C M Radhakrishnan Nair - Former Chief of Central Intelligence Agency (CBI)
   K Mohandas, IPS, Director General of Police (Retd.), Tamil Nadu
   K. K. Rajashekaran Nair IPS, Director General of Police (Retd.), Tamil Nadu
   T.V Madhusudanan IPS, Director General of Police (Retd.), Kerala
   R.Jayaram Padikkal IPS, Director General of Police (Retd.), Kerala
   N. Krishnan Nair IPS, Director General of Police (Retd.), Kerala
   K.V Rajagopalan Nair IPS, Director General of Police (Retd.), Kerala
   Dr. K.Sukumaran Nair IPS, Director General of Police (Retd.), Kerala
   R.P.C. Nair IPS, Director General of Police (Retd.), Kerala
   P.Gopinathan Nair  IPS, Director General of Police (Retd.), Kerala
   T.S. Viswanatha Pillai IPS, Former Inspector General of Police, Kerala
   A. Hemachandran IPS, Addl. Director General of Police, Kerala, India
   Venugopal K. Nair IPS, Director General of Police, Kerala & CVO SAIL India (Deputation)
   K Vijaya Kumar, IPS, Director General of Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF)
   Dr P.M. Nair IPS, Addl. Director General of Police, Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF)
   Dr. B. Sandhya IPS, Inspector General of Police, Kerala
   R. Sreelekha IPS, Inspector General of Police, Kerala
   S. Ananthakrishnan, IPS, Inspector General of Police, Kerala
   Rahul S. Nair, IPS, Assistant Superintendent of  Police, Kerala 

117.193.34.102 (talk) 09:46, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

These would need citations and/or links to their own articles on Wikipedia. Which ever of these (or both) are used, they would have to assert that the person in question is in fact of the Nair caste. It is not sufficient that they have the name "Nair" because, for example, there are plenty of people called Nair in Scotland & I doubt that more than 1% of them have even the remotest connection to the community that this article refers to. I accept that this is an extreme example, but we cannot rule out such situations within India itself. - Sitush (talk) 10:21, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

From User talk:Unnithan1956

The Flying Swami reference is from page 155. I see no reference to him as the Flying Swami, although the following is mentioned:

In 1971 Swami Vishnu-devananda made headlines by flying around the world in his small two-seater plane dropping flowers and leaflets for peace over the trouble-spots of the world.

As for him actually being of the Nair caste, there is no mention of this, only mention of his birth name:

Swami Vishnu-devananda was born Swamy Kuttan Nair on 31 December 1927 in the South Indian state of Kerala.

The publisher is Sivananda Yoga Center and Sivananda Yoga Vedanta Centers. Whether this meets WP:RS, I don't know.JanetteDoe (talk) 18:22, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I don't think that there is a massive RS issue simply for giving the guy's last name as at birth. The problem, as so often, is that we cannot assume that the name defines the community status. I did ask this question at WT:IN a while back without much (or any!) response, but not all last names in India are unique to one community, not all of one community use one last name ... and in the case of Nairs, well, there are plenty of them elsewhere in the world who most definitely are not related to the Nair community. It is synthesis/OR to allow such things to pass as verifiable. If the issue mattered so much then surely it would have been specifically documented. I am afraid that this situation, which applies to lists for other communities also, is often rooted in the "glorification" agenda rather than the "encyclopedia" agenda. - Sitush (talk) 18:49, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Now I'm able to see the Thapovanam quote. The exact page seems to be xi, in the preface.

This book is the first instalment of the autobiography of Sri Swamiji Tapovanam. The author and subject of this book is a native of Kerala born in 1990 near Palghat in a Nair familiy, who underwent English and Sanskrit education, but from early days exhibited a yearning for renunciation and the leading of a spiritual life.

This page includes a reference to "several years of contemplation and reflection in the divine solitude of the Himalayas." There is more mention of pilgrimages and meditation on pages 128-130 including some mention of place names, a large amount of poetic description of scenery and difficulties to overcome, but I'll have to look closer to see how specific it is about how much time was actually supposed to have been spent in the Himalayas, which was the basis of his claim to notability.JanetteDoe (talk) 05:08, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

List of Nair citations

Hello Again. Firstly, he himself has said he is of the Nair caste. It is said that he is part of the caste as well. Second, it does not refer to his fictional work? I do not know what you mean by fictional work, it says he is part of Nair caste quite clearly. Lastly, you are at 3R as of right now, and you have made no attempt to discuss the removal of the citations. There are numerous sources of he himself saying he is a Nair, and for the second citation you reverted, I would like to make it clear again that it does not refer to his fictional work, it refers to what is being said about his own caste (i.e he says he is part of it).I am copying this to the talk page for the list of Nairs article. Rabt man (talk) 19:56, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Shashi Tharoor

We've had this discussion before somewhere, back in September 2015. It is true from the citation given here that in 2009 Tharoor declared himself to be a Nair. However, in 2014 he wrote an article disassociating himself from caste delineations - see here. He is a living person and is entitled to change his mind. We cannot definitively list him as something he has renounced, just as happens with Amitabh Bachchan. - Sitush (talk) 20:15, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Hey Sitush. That link does not say that he has denounced the Nair community and refuses himself as one. He says that Caste will not disappear from India, and it is an irrelevance. Nowhere in the article does it explicitly mention that he does not want to dissassociate from the Nair community. Tharoor even makes it clear that it will always be there, but only as an identity or fraternity.

"In other words, caste will always be there but, as this episode unconsciously reveals, for many of us it doesn't pack the same punch it used to. If it becomes more and more one of many interchangeable, mutable forms of identity -- one fraternity of many that an Indian can lay claim to -- it can cease to matter so much."

Tharoor also says in the article that hiring workers, having friendships, and other reasons of support should not be based on caste. Never in the article does he assert that he explicitly dissassociates from the Nair caste . "He said what he did not because his caste matters so much to him but precisely because it doesn't. He doesn't base his friendships, his hiring decisions or his political preferences on the basis of caste"

He also says this: "So I grew up thinking of caste as an irrelevance, married outside my caste, and brought up two children to be utterly indifferent to caste, indeed largely unconscious of it. Even after I entered the hothouse world of Indian politics, I did not consciously seek to find out the caste of anyone I met or worked with. I hired a cook without asking his caste (the same with my remaining domestic staff) and have entertained all manner of people in my home without the thought of caste affinity even crossing my mind".

In this article, he asserts Caste to be a manner of indifference to him. He never in the article has said that he is not part of the Nair caste. In summary, he is saying that Caste is no longer relavant in today's society, and is only a manner of heritage and fraternity. Rabt man (talk) 20:29, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

You have just confirmed my point: caste is of no relevance to him. We don't make claims such as those relating to caste unless the person explicitly associates themselves and to do that they must accept the very concept as being in some way relevant. We've definitely discussed this a few months ago, although I can't recall where, and you were the sole voice in favour of inclusion. - Sitush (talk) 20:34, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

My point is that he has never said in the article explicitly that he does not choose to be part of the Nair caste. On a different note, Tharoor would not do that in the first place as he is a politician and the vote of the Nair constituency is neccessary to securing his political support. Rabt man (talk) 20:39, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

• I think these lists are cruft and shouldn't be a part of Wikipedia. But they are and so be it. Given that, I think that the source provided by Rabt man quoting Tharoor is sufficient self-identification to include his name in the list. Unless there is a later source where he specifically and clearly disowns his Nairness. --regentspark (comment) 14:14, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

Ok so ill go and re add the sourceRabt man (talk) 22:22, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

No, you will not. I have reverted you and explained on your talk page. You can't rush this sort of thing when it suits you. Circumstances are everything: in 2009 he was using his caste in an attempt to gain support from the NSS etc; since then, he has pretty consistently said that he renounces the concept even though he knows it is endemic in Indian society. Ambedkar might be an analogy. - Sitush (talk) 23:04, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

He has never mentioned anywhere consistently that he has renounced th e Nair community, and has never said that he is not a Nair. On the other hand, he has consistently mentioned that he is of the Nair caste. In fact, in the various books he has written, two of them say that he is of the Nair community:

https://books.google.com/books?id=uqvpZutXN7cC&pg=PA267&lpg=PA267&dq=veetu+peru+shashi+tharoor&source=bl&ots=ySnar7tOMZ&sig=sJnt_wffP2rwnjmP-0KeVTU2Bd8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjx3cPs8JPKAhWIeCYKHZVxAmwQ6AEIHzAB#v=onepage&q=veetu%20peru%20shashi%20tharoor&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=fRSC_uTGhZ8C&pg=PA73&lpg=PA73&dq=veetu+peru+shashi+tharoor&source=bl&ots=XH2miXnrmb&sig=T5k-7M4Pk9-KWkMKLepQk3PjrIo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjquJyW8ZPKAhWJOCYKHT45CuoQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=veetu%20peru%20shashi%20tharoor&f=false

Both say literally the same thing, and he makes it very clear that he is a Nair. In a tweet from 2014, he says a similar thing:

https://twitter.com/shashitharoor/status/542171535138512896 Check the response to someone who asked him about the name 'Tharoor'.

He then goes on to mention that he is a Nair. Another point to mention, is that he had attended a function put forth by the NSS (Nair service society) quite recently. Thus it can be understood that he did not renounce the community. In fact, he said regarding the Nair service society that it was "an organization that had opened its doors transcending caste and religion......". It is quite clear from this that he never denounced the Nair community, or ever denounced being part of the Nair caste himself.

This is the source in which is said he attended the Nair Service Soceity function: http://english.mathrubhumi.com/news/kerala/suresh-gopi-proposes-the-idea-of-nair-bank-english-news-1.578081 note: this article is from a popular Malayalam news source which published the article in October 2015 (the article is in English).

One more point to bring back to the discussion is that Tharoor has never explicitly said that he is not a Nair, or that he has denounced the Nair community. Rabt man (talk) 00:33, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

This book

https://books.google.com/books?id=4KdhRIgmgvMC&pg=PA239&dq=shashi+tharoor+nair+caste&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiFga_tzpjKAhUB6WMKHU92A9sQ6AEIUjAI#v=onepage&q=shashi%20tharoor%20nair%20caste&f=false

contains an excerpt from which Shashi Tharoor said himself about being part of the Nair caste. The evidence is overwhelming. Rabt man (talk) 21:20, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

News Source:

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/tp-kerala/merit-not-caste-mattered-tharoor/article265855.ece

Article mentions that Tharoor said that he was 'proud to be a Nair'.Rabt man (talk) 21:50, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

To note, the point is that he clearly identified himself, not that he was proud etcRabt man (talk) 03:17, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Its been 13 days (almost 2 weeks) and evidence is significant. Rabt man (talk) 02:18, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

References

I noticed a number of references using the url to a Google Book link. I though editors might be interested in a tool which takes a link as input and creates a (usually) properly formatted ref.

Wikipedia citation tool for Google Books

I used it to improve two such references.

It really helps creates a much cleaner list of references. I hope you will try it. S Philbrick(Talk) 01:18, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

It Clearly Says Vallathol was a Nair in the given article

@Sitush, did you not look at the reference at all? It literally says 'aristocratic family of the nair caste,' in the given source. See for yourself; http://thebiography.us/en/vallathol

Also, how is it not a reliable source? It is a biography website...what are you trying to accomplish here? Rabt man (talk) 17:53, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

Another point to add is that just because Kamala Das converted to Islam does not mean she rejected caste. There are many muslims that identify themselves on the basis of caste (i.e many Muslim Rajputs, Arains, etc). Assuming so, is engaging in original research. Rabt man (talk) 17:54, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

Where exactly does it say Kamala Das rejected her identity as part of the Nair caste in the text?Rabt man (talk) 17:59, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

If you think that is a decent source then you need to re-read WP:RS. - Sitush (talk) 00:47, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

Sourcing

Please read User:Sitush/Common#Castelists before adding people to this article. I have just had to do a massive revert because it included sources that were verifying what people did rather than which caste they were affiliated with. Furthermore, a lot of the sources were deadlinks to The Hindu etc, which makes me think someone has trawled through the history here and reinstated items that have previously been removed, complete with the original citations. - Sitush (talk) 08:52, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Also note that probably is not good enough, eg: for the Niranam poets. - Sitush (talk) 09:25, 15 February 2018 (UTC)