Talk:List of Mystery Science Theater 3000 episodes/Archive 2

Links to Season 0 Films

Why did someone undo all the links I provided from the "Season 0" episodes? The movies themselves exist, and if they're going to be listed they should be linked. The user who undid my edits said "See talk page" as his reason for the undo. After reading this, I see no specific reason not to link the films to their respective articles as long as they're going to be listed. 98.221.120.104 (talk) 03:02, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

KTMA Episodes

Why exactly are we giving a complete list of episodes that aren't released, probably never will be, aren't officially considered "canon" and were never shown in syndication? The only reason most people have even seen these is through internet piracy. The "first" episode in the section wasn't even a full episode. Some of them haven't even been seen by any This section seems more like fancruft and/or trivia that encourages internet piracy than actual, useful information. Listing an entire irrelevant season before any official episodes seems overly confusing (and redundant, since many of the films were featured in later shows). This section should be removed, in my opinion. Wikipedia isn't a fansite, and this sort of material only seems relevant to the show's hardcore fans. This entire article needs to be cleaned up, mainly for those same reasons, and this seems like a good start. Friginator (talk) 16:53, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

The KTMA Episodes (e.g. "Season 0") actually aired in their entirety on TV, and are therefore part of the MST canon. I agree that many of the comments in the Season 0 section are about the existing copies of those episodes, not the episodes themselves. References to the fan copies could be removed, while leaving the episode descriptions intact. As to Friginator's later point, that the whole article needs to be cleaned up, I don't see anything else like the comments just mentioned in the KTMA section. Maybe someone else can chime in with specific things that need to be "cleaned up"? -mlekas (talk) 20:48, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Back to the subject, just because they aired on TV doesn't make them notable as full episodes. "The Green Slime" wasn't even a full episode, and never aired on TV. Also, look at, just as an example, the [[List of The Simpsons episodes|list of Simpsons episodes]. It doesn't list the early short films that preceded the main series. This seems pretty similar. And how are the episodes "canon" if the characters and locations are different? The article reads like a fansite (partly because it seems most of the editors are anonymous die-hard fans of the show who want the article to reflect their point of view, instead of reading like a proper article). What purpose does listing the KTMA episodes serve? Because right now they just confuse the reader by starting out with a bunch of trivia that relates to nothing notable. And because many of the KTMA films were repeated in later seasons (again, how could this be considered in canon?), it's just going to make the article that much more confusing. If we are going to leave the KTMA episodes in the article, they shouldn't be listed the way the other episodes are. They shouldn't have summaries or other irrelevant info like "DVD Availability" columns. Another issue is that no one can prove that these episodes actually existed in the first place. If I wanted to make up an episode summary, add some nonexistent characters, and claim that the film shown was "Citizen Kane," I could. Just like the other episodes listed, it would have no source and absolutely nothing to show that it ever existed at all. Right now, I say that we remove wikilinks, trivia, episode numbers (Episode "K00"? Really?) and the ridiculous implication that somehow these episodes are somehow going to show up on DVD. That way the somewhat-relevant info would still be there, but it would be slightly less confusing to people who aren't just part of the show's fanbase. Maybe it would work better as prose, but that's not an issue I'm concerned with now. There's an entire Wiki for MST3K, and a lot of the things written in this article would suit that site much better. Friginator (talk) 21:41, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

I didn't mean to give the impression of leaving the subject. I'll break your comments into three parts: 1) differences in characters and locations; 2) Trivia and Episode Numbers; and 3) Proof of existence.

Differences in characters and locations. Changes happen several times throughout the series, not just from KTMA - in fact Season 0 (KTMA) and Season 1 have the same actors. Season 2 has the first cast change with Frank Conniff replacing Josh Weinstein in Deep 13, and Kevin Murphy joining the show as the voice of Tom Servo. Then Season 5 has Joel Hodgson replaced by Mike Nelson; Season 7 sees Frank Conniff leave the show, and Mary Jo joins in a different role; Season 8 no longer has Trace; it's now Pearl Forrester, Bobo and Brain Guy (now in Outer Space); Season 9 brings them from Space back to Earth in Castle Forrester etc. I think actor/character and location changes are common enough through the series to rule out as a factor in eliminating the documentation of KTMA.

Trivia and Episode Numbers. The argument here is that KTMA episodes will never be released to DVD, and the so-called Episode K00 Green Slime does not make sense to you. Green Slime was often called a pilot but is not; the entry on this page exists to clarify this point (see text), that it was not an episode. It should not have an episode number, though people may add it back in as it is commonly called K00 on sites like MST3k Wikia and MST3KInfo. I don't see harm in having episode numbers for the remaining episodes. When you mention DVDs, you say it is ridiculous to assume that KTMA episodes will ever be released on DVD, and therefore that column is superfluous. That makes sense to me. My guess is the KTMA tables were just a copy/paste of the later season data.

Proof of Existence: I am not catching your point about making up nonexistent characters. You mean that because nobody can prove that KTMA episodes prior to 11/27/1988 exist, the entries should be deleted? And the benefit is so people will not be confused when coming to this page? I guess the way to do that would be to start the history with Gamera vs. Baguron on 11/27/1988 (which is the first "documented" episode in the sense that copies exist and can be dated). The problem with this is when people finally see the episode they may wonder why later KTMA episodes reference prior episodes, then when they look it up on Wikipedia they won't find the answer... Maybe better would be to footnote all of the KTMA episodes at the end, so people don't see these KTMA episodes first, but leave the KTMA episodes there. Oh and regarding the comparison to The Simpsons, you are right - the early shorts have their own page. That seems like another possible resolution for KTMA episodes - moving to another page. Oh BTW, you can't blame the Internet for people knowing about KTMA episodes - The producers of the show encouraged trading tapes, with PSA messages at the end of each show saying "Keep Circulating The Tapes." edit: I get it now, you mean the links to the full movies. Yeah, that didn't make sense to me either. I thought they would be links to full MST episode descriptions, not the original movies. I agree it makes sense to remove those links. That should probably be a different discussion point as it affects the whole page, not just KTMA.

People use Wikipedia to get information about the things in their lives. I have referred to this page a lot as I watch newly released episodes on DVD from Rhino and Shout Factory. I can see some cleanup of the KTMA area, but not its removal from Wikipedia entirely. -mlekas (talk) 06:37, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

The Amazing Colossal Episode Guide, written by the producers of the series, gives air dates for all the KTMA episodes, including the ones for which fan copies do not exist. The fact that fan copies do not exist does not prove the episodes did not happen. In addition, Joel Hodgson, the creator of the series, has called the "Green Slime" tryout reel a "pilot." Why your definition of a "pilot should supercede his eludes me. Perhaps the matter can be settled by putting "pilot" in quotes? Msampo (talk) 18:04, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

I should mention: If, eventually, a KTMA episode DOES pop up on DVD (giving an opening to the door for the rest of the season), should we put the table back like the other seasons? After all, if a KTMA episode is released on DVD by Shout Factory, at least that would be a legal release. 24.181.236.186 (talk) 00:20, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

If they release full KTMA episodes, yeah, but they've said they have no plans to. Friginator (talk) 00:45, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Shorts

The Shorts section at the end of the page doesn't belong on a TV Episode summary, at least as currently formatted. The Shorts are listed in groups corresponding to VHS and DVD releases, and were not aired as specific TV episodes. Moreover, the information is redundant with listings in the actual episode list above. -mlekas (talk) 06:37, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Fixed. The whole section was inappropriate for the article. It was just about video releases, and this is the page that they should be listed on. Friginator (talk) 19:02, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Women of the Prehistoric Planet

The Rhino DVD (Volume 9) lists "Women of the Prehistoric Planet" as "Show 105." However, every other source I've seen indicated that this was in fact episode 113. Even the article points out that it was produced and aired last. So how is it the fifth episode? I've changed it, seeing as the only reason for that listing seems to be the back of an out-of-print DVD. Friginator (talk)

Actually it is show 104, and the reason its labeled that way is because it was the 4th episode aired. In The Mystery Science Theater 3000 Amazing Colossal Episode Guide , the cast and crew confirmed what many fans had long suspected: that this was the final episode Best Brains Inc. shot for season one but, for reasons that remain murky, it was given a production number of 104. Which normally would indicate it was the fourth one shot, which it wasn’t for some reason. So, Comedy Channel aired it as the 4th episode instead. That's the gist of it

JustinT1977 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:46, 23 February 2011 (UTC).

Except the article actually, says, Despite its low production number, this episode was the last filmed and last aired of the season. That would make it 113. The source given backs that up entirely. I'm going to change it back, unless someone can actually give a source saying it was the fourth episode aired. Friginator (talk) 01:05, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Amazing Colossal Episode Guide book contain all the air dates for the season 1 episodes? (I never got the book, but I know they showed the correct air dates for the KTMA episodes at least). Cause if so, they should have all the correct air dates for season 1 (especially so we can fill in all those "unkonwns"), and unless it IS true that "Women of the Prehistoric Planet" WAS shown after "Mad Monster", even if being filmed after "Black Scorpian", I suppose we could change that again. Anyone here have a copy of the book? 24.181.236.186 (talk) 14:41, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Well, I looked on the pages on Amazon.... and unless the air dates are farther, I can't find any confirmation on air dates. Shucks. Oh well. Maybe Comedy Central might have some info on the air dates. 14:47, 23 February 2011 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.181.236.186 (talk)

The Amazing Colossal Episode Guide was written by the the cast and crew of MST3K, the production and air dates came directly from them. The guys who run Satellite News, the biggest fan website on the net, have talked to the cast often over the years. They asked them directly about this to confirm it. I would think that is a reliable enough source that verifies that this episode is 104 and was the 4th episode to air.

JustinT1977 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:29, 23 February 2011 (UTC).

Satellite News lists it as episode 104, but doesn't have a confirmed release date. And still, the actual episode order is more important than info listed on fansites. Friginator (talk) 16:41, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

The production number of the "WOMEN OF THE PREHISTORIC PLANET" episode is 104. That is simply a fact and the order in which the episode aired is not relevant to that fact. If you wish to number the episodes in the order they aired, you are free to do that, but you should simply number them "1, 2, 3..." etc. In using the "101, 102, 103..." numbering system, you are hewing to the system Best Brains used, and if you are doing that, then this episode should be given its proper "104" production number, regardless of its air date. Only a week or so ago, I changed this page to note that the list was presented in "production number order" (as opposed to "production order") in order to clarify this issue. Others have seen fit to delete this. Best Brains has never provided original air dates for season one episodes. Two episodes from that season have had their air dates confirmed by longtime fan Tom Noel here http://www.mst3ktemple.com/schedule1989.htm and http://www.mst3ktemple.com/schedule1990.htm -- he has found copies of "The Cable Guide" for those time periods and found the listing for the series. None of the other episodes in season one have confirmed air dates, but if you look on those pages you will see a VERY educated guess that we at Satellite News have endorsed. Disregarding Mr. Noel's extensive work on this issue is foolish. Finally, the issue of consistency must be brought up. There are several other instances during the course of the series when episodes ran out of their production number order. For example: episode 502- HERCULES first ran the week BEFORE episode 501- WARRIOR OF THE LOST WORLD first aired. Do you intend to change the order of all of these episodes. You should, for consistency's sake, but in my opinion you should NOT, for clarity's sake. In any case, if you want to list the "WOMEN OF THE PREHISTORIC PLANET" episode last in the season one listing, go ahead. But changing it's production number is changing a correct fact to an incorrect one.Msampo (talk) 18:04, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Is there a source saying that these are "production numbers"? Most shows use the same system. Friginator (talk) 18:29, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

The Amazing Colossal Episode Guide refers to them as production numbers. And production companies use many different episode numbering methods. I don't think any one system predominates. BTW, I wasn't aware the Rhino releases calls this show 105, but if it does, that's simply a mistake, one of many Rhino committed on their packaging copy over the years.Msampo (talk) 14:56, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

DVD availability

Considering fans will be curious to know which episodes are or aren't available, with Amazing Collosal Man being only on VHS, they could assume it was never released on media to begin with. So.... I have a suggestion. At least until ACM is released on DVD (most likely in a not-too-distant future, no pun intended, though), maybe we could turn "DVD availabillity" into "Home media availablity"? We don't have to, but it's my suggestion. 24.181.236.186 (talk) 16:45, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

 Done. Though naturally that means we have to include the other episodes that were available on VHS. However, it's important to note that when it comes to actual availability, this isn't a fansite, and we shouldn't be listing info that's exclusively of interest to only the show's fans. Friginator (talk) 02:18, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Listing the VHS isn't a bad idea. Alot of movies and TV shows have VHS releases listed on there, so why not on here? 24.181.236.186 (talk) 02:20, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I would like to note though - I have seen the "VHS box collections" listed. I've seen a few of those from Rhino, but I would like to ask.... are the neccessarry to list? Because it's almost like just repeating the fact that it's on VHS. 24.181.236.186 (talk) 02:21, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, the Best Brains VHS Box Sets and the Rhino VHS releases are two different things. So you're arguing we should just say, "VHS" or "DVD", and not mention how it was released or what the release was called? Friginator (talk) 05:39, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Wait a sec. I thought only Best Brains released a few Sci-Fi episodes? As far as I know they've only released Boggy Creek II, Girl In Gold Boots, Touch of Satan and Hamlet. Do you know any others? 24.181.236.186 (talk) 23:56, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I guess for VHS releases we could note "VHS from Rhino and Best Brains", for the episodes that WERE released by Best Brains. 24.181.236.186 (talk) 23:57, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Number of episodes

If I'm not mistaken, only 197 "episodes were broadcast from 1988 to 1999." There was a 30-minute pilot that was never broadcast over the air or via cable, and The Movie was not an episode by definition and was never broadcast alongside the series as a part of it. --Cheesemeister (talk) 16:15, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Done, without objection. --Cheesemeister (talk) 04:25, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

The Giant Gila Monster

I don't know where this would fall within the listing, but Netflix has the following episode that should be included: http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/Mystery_Science_Theater_3000_The_Giant_Gila_Monster/70089007?trkid=496624 WilliamsJD --(talk) 20:57, 18 August 2012 (UTC)