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Talk:List of LGBTQ writers/Archive 1

< Talk:List of LGBTQ writers
Latest comment: 6 years ago by InternetArchiveBot in topic External links modified
Archive 1

New Names and Alphabetizing, Question about 21st Century Category

Latest comment: 15 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I alphabetized the Post-Stonewall and 21st century sections, which had many additions that were not in alphabetical order. I also added Thomas Glave, Lawrence La Fountain-Stokes, Jaime Manrique, and Emanuel Xavier to the Post-Stonewall category. How are people using the "21st Cent" category? Is it for people whose first book (or first major book) comes out on or after 2000? Thanks.--Mgdelarosa (talk) 03:50, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Reinaldo Arenas and John Rechy

Latest comment: 15 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I have moved Arenas from pre-Stonewall to post-Stonewall. I have also incorporated John Rechy, who was not on list. While both started to write before 1969, their aesthetic projects are more in line with post-Stonewall authors like Larry Kramer. I would not mind having clearer guidelines regarding this. I am open to moving them back to pre-Stonewall if there are strong sentiments about that.--Mgdelarosa (talk) 04:00, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Latina Lesbian and LGBT Latin American Writers

Latest comment: 15 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I've done additional cleaning up and expansion, and included Gloria Anzaldúa, Magali García Ramis, Alicia Gaspar de Alba, Cherríe Moraga, Achy Obejas, Manuel Puig (and Kiss of the Spider Woman), and Mayra Santos-Febres. Almost all have entries that explain how their work fits in this list.--Mgdelarosa (talk) 04:20, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

BLP violation/redundant

Latest comment: 15 years ago10 comments3 people in discussion

While mooching with the LGBT fiction template i made, i noticed that this exists, and is completely unsourced. Are there other occupation lists like this? Doesn't the general list of LGBT people cover occupation? Culling this to what could be sourced would seem redundant to other lists and a lot of work. I see writers like Paula Vogel, with no source here, no mention of LGBT in the article, and not in the LGBT writer category. I thought it best to invite comments here before adding a merge template or posting to the BLP violations board.

Inital thoughts:

  • Having no sources is unacceptable, especially for WP:BLP, which includes this.
  • Would have a reason to exist (if sourced) if short descritptions of how their LGBT status contributes to their work. But it doesn't do this so gives little added value over the lists of people compared the large amount of added work that would need. Yobmod (talk) 09:49, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
  • If it was supposed to be a list of writers who've written works conaining LGBT themes, then it has the wrong title, and some entries are still wrong, and it owuld seem to be a very dfficult to manage and ill-defined list.
This list was originally part of LGBT literature, and was basically an outline upon which that article was meant to be expanded; that never happened, and the list was pulled out. You are correct that it has somewhat degenerated, and as a "list of writers" is redundant and useless. I think the list's value would be as a timeline of LGBT works, which of course may be more difficult to identify the older they are because what we know as "LGBT themes" were not identified as such and were usually hidden or subtly incorporated. Anyway, to that end I'd like to see some of this info preserved, but I am not personally knowledgable enough on the subject to clean up/transform this list into a "List of early LGBT works" or whatever.— TAnthonyTalk 17:40, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
I'll try sourcing a few early/important ones, and merge that back into the parent article. The rest i'll place on the talk page with an explanation.Yobmod (talk) 07:30, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
I find this list useful (don't know of an equivalent on Wikipedia, but maybe you could point to that?). You are right that it should have references and a better introduction and structure. Referencing it would not be that hard, just a matter of sitting down with a source such as Claude J. Summers, ed. The Gay and Lesbian Literary Heritage (New York: Henry Holt, 1995, ISBN 0805027165).--Lawrlafo (talk) 18:55, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
The list of LGBT people is the master list, with the sublists giving the occupation or reason for notability for each person. Does this mean you will be sourcing this? I can hold off from merging/trimming if someone will be improving it. I have too many articles to source, and don't find un-annotated lists of any use anyway. The problem is that we are not allowed to wait for citations to slowly acrue, which is what i would usually do - WP:BLP demands that saying anything controversial about living people be sourced or removed, and unfortunately being LGBT is still controversial.Yobmod (talk) 19:11, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
Note that at the list of people, sorting by year then "notable as" gives a list of LGBT writers by date.Yobmod (talk) 19:13, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
I volunteer to reference this list. But I would like to suggest that it be changed to an alphabetical list with no chronological divisions, following the model of List of African American writers or List of Puerto Rican writers. Is that a good idea? I would also suggest that sections on 19th-century, 20th century (before and after Stonewall), and 21st century LGBT literature be incorporated to the LGBT literature article, perhaps mentioning the most important authors.--Lawrlafo (talk) 02:43, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
If you start with referencing (in any order you want), i can come and make it into a sortable table).Yobmod (talk) 16:50, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Lawrlafo, can you list any "LGBT works" by these writers you may come across in your research? As discussed above, as simply a list of LGBT writers it is somewhat of a redundant spin-off of list of LGBT people (whereas there isn't really a general List of African American people, but instead various lists by jobs and other categories (see Lists of African Americans). A list of early works with LGBT themes is much more valuable, even if you choose to list it alphabetically by author. And I say "early works" because obviously the list gets exponentionally more huge the closer we get to present time, when it's OK to be gay LOL. — TAnthonyTalk 18:43, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

OK, I will work on this, but for now I'm going to alphabetize (just because it really makes it much easier to reference) and go ahead and reference and add dates of birth (and death). I will keep or add notable works if possible, but maybe I'll do that later. I checked the List of African Americans above, don't know why it did not have a link to List of African American writers so I fixed that.--Lawrlafo (talk) 03:53, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Compton Mackenzie

Latest comment: 15 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I am eliminating this entry for lack of reference to topic:

--Lawrlafo (talk) 10:58, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Susan Palwick

Latest comment: 15 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I am eliminating this entry for lack of reference to topic:

--Lawrlafo (talk) 11:12, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Andrew Vachss

Latest comment: 15 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I am eliminating this entry for lack of reference to topic:

--Lawrlafo (talk) 12:04, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Old content

Latest comment: 15 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

I am removing this content and adding it in a reformated way.--Lawrlafo (talk) 08:33, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

I have hidden this content for general readability of the page. By the way, awesome recreation of the list! — TAnthonyTalk 12:01, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
Thanks!!!!!--Lawrlafo (talk) 12:05, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
Click on show to view the contents of this section

Late 19th century
20th century

The 1969 Stonewall riots in New York City were a watershed for the worldwide gay rights movement, as gay and transgender people had never before acted together in such large numbers to forcibly resist police. As a result, modern LGBT history is often categorized as either "Pre-" or "Post-Stonewall."

Pre-Stonewall
Post-Stonewall
21st century

Mae West

Latest comment: 15 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I am eliminating Mae West entry for lack of reference to topic.--Lawrlafo (talk) 12:47, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Please consider removing tags!

Latest comment: 15 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I am done with the changes to the list I wanted to do. Please evaluate and consider removing tags on references, original research, cleanup, and lead section, or if not offer suggestions for further changes. Thanks!--Lawrlafo (talk) 21:38, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Removing authors who are not LGBT

Latest comment: 15 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I am removing these authors who explore (or condemn) homosexuality in their work but who were not themselves same-sex loving (or whose sexuality is unknown or uncertain).

I will continue to go over the names on list and reread the outside sources to ascertain appropriateness of including them. --Lawrlafo (talk) 14:10, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Disagreement regarding change of title of list

Latest comment: 13 years ago12 comments4 people in discussion

I do not agree with Yobmod's change of the title of this list from List of LGBT writers to List of writers of LGBT literature, as I explicitly only included LGBT or same-sex loving authors and purposefully did not include numerous authors who write about LGBT issues but are not LGBT themselves. I have asked Yobmod to reconsider this move.--Lawrlafo (talk) 08:12, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing at this point, but pending discussion I'm restoring the page since Lawrlafo's comments seem to indicate that the new title would be inaccurate.— TAnthonyTalk 08:34, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

I copied our ongoing discussion from the user talk page (I think the now current title is the inaccurate one :-) ):


Yobmod, your change of title of the List of LGBT writers is not accurate. I went to great pains to only include people who are LGBT or same-sex loving in the list and not to include non-LGBT, non-same-sex authors who write on LGBT topics. Your new title does not reflect this at all. I would request that you undo your change. Thanks. --Lawrlafo (talk) 08:07, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Hi, great work with all that sourcing on the list. I changed the title, because it seemed that some of the sources were about works having LGBT themes, not about the writer being LGBT. Although i agree that a writer of works about Queer identity is likely to be LGBT, it is not certain to be so, yes? We also are not including non-LGBT related works by LGBT writers, so calling it a list of LGBT writers is not really true. Can straight writers not write important LGBT literature?Yobmod (talk) 08:22, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
As an example, Arthur C Clarke wrote Imperial Earth, a gound-breaking portrayal of a gay character in science fiction, but there are not the reliable sources to say for certain if he was gay. Mercedes Lackey is noted for including a variety of sexualities in the majority of her young adult fantasies,which is pretty unique, but she is straight. A list of LGBT writers title would exlude such works, no matter how important they are to LGBT literature.Yobmod (talk) 08:29, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
Hi. Yes, non-LGBT people can write LGBT lit, but that would be a different list (the one you propose). You are correct that the books I consulted include non-LGBT authors. I read every entry and verified that the authors I included were in fact LGBT or same-sex loving (either at a particular moment in their lives or throughout their lives), and that this was discussed in the entries. That is my interest: to create such a list. It is consonant with the list that existed. I can cite by article and author every single external source I read, if this is what is required. I did not include writers if their LGBT or same-sex loving histories are not documented or discussed in scholarly literature. I would prefer to remove authors than to have the name of the list changed.--Lawrlafo (talk) 08:33, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
But you have TS Eliot on this list, and his article does not say he was LGBT, but does mention his relationships with women, including 2 marriages. If he is not LGBT, then this casts doubt on whether all the other uses of that source identify the writer as LGBT, or as a writer of important LGBT works.Yobmod (talk) 08:35, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Hi, I am not referring to the Wikipedia articles, I am referring to the articles in Claude Summers's The Gay and Lesbian Literary Heritage, which is the main reference for people like T.S. Eliot. I would personally prefer not to edit every single Wikipedia article that does not mention this (the author's same-sex or LGBT experience), but if that is what it takes, I can do it.--Lawrlafo (talk) 08:42, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

For example, Gregory Woods discusses T.S. Eliot's relationship with Jean Verdenal, a young Frenchman, in Paris in 1910-1911 (Summers, page 219).--Lawrlafo (talk) 08:46, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
But I think this is a case of LGBT scholars trying to crowbar any writer they like into being LGBT, and applying modern labels to historical figures. At least for the controvertial ones, more sourcing is needed (eg Chaucer). I very much doubt editors would allow some of these writer's articles in the LGBT people category with only this one source. If consensus cannot be achieved on the biographies, then i don't think it should be in this list. We can try with Eliot and Chaucer?
I don't mind the list keeping this name, it just is less useful to people interested in LGBT literature, rather than gossip about which writers are gay, hence still seems mostly redundant to the LGBT people list.Yobmod (talk) 09:10, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
There are valid reasons for the existence of both kinds of lists: List of LGBT writers, and List of writers on LGBT themes. You can argue the same for other categories (List of women writers vs. List of writers on women's themes; List of English writers vs. List of writers on English themes; List of African American writers vs. List of writers on African American themes). The issue of an author's LGBT or same-sex loving identity is not simply gossip to me. I find it relevant and important information to know, the same way I want to know if an author is a woman or English or African American. This information in no way diminishes their contribution, and would never be dismissed as gossip. I am interested in a list such as the one you propose (List of writers on LGBT themes), and you should go ahead and create it as a separate list but not eliminate this one. You can explain its rationale in the heading. It could be seen as a complementary list. As to trying to crowbar authors into a category, I thought I did a fair job in the heading trying to address the complexity of this and speaking about the dangers of anachronism. We can also remove Chaucer and T.S. Eliot from this list if that makes more sense to you, I have no investment at all in keeping either one on it.--Lawrlafo (talk) 18:08, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
Per WP:BLPCAT and WP:EGRS, List of LGBT writers just as it is shouldn't exist. Bulldog123 00:02, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Reinsertion of deleted names

Latest comment: 13 years ago2 comments1 person in discussion

I alphabetized the above section of deleted names. We really need to work on getting some of these back in, as they are some of the most famous LGBT authors.--Lawrlafo (talk) 15:38, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I have referenced and am reinserting the following: William S. Burroughs, Essex Hemphill, Alan Hollinghurst, Christopher Isherwood, Jack Kerouac, Larry Kramer, Tony Kushner.--Lawrlafo (talk) 01:41, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Cleanup

Latest comment: 11 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Just as a heads-up, I've begun the process of converting this list from a plain format to a table, more like that which has long been in use at the various subpages of List of gay, lesbian or bisexual people. I will continue with this, but would welcome any assistance as it's a big job which I'm unlikely to be able to finish in one sitting. Bearcat (talk) 21:55, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Uncited

Latest comment: 11 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

I think it best to move uncited wirters here, until citations are found. Many i'm sure are trivial to cite, but there are a lot. Writing a book with gay in the title does not mean no source is needed and i don't know of any gay book awards that require the writer be LGBT:

Preferably, it shouldn't just be sources that say the writer is gay but sources that say they are gay and write about gay subjects. Bulldog123 23:55, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
Nope. As long as a writer can be properly sourced as being gay, lesbian or bisexual, they belong here no matter what they did or didn't write about. Bearcat (talk) 22:21, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Some other names to add ~

Latest comment: 11 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

I know of at least three noted children's / young adult authors not listed who should be - James Howe, William Sleator, and Brian Selznick. I believe I saw Howe interviewed on a tv show about it, Sleator's recent obit mentioned his male "partner(s)," and Selznick's About the Author page in Wonderstruck mentions his partner, as well as him mentioning it in a recent interview printed online. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.71.226.194 (talk) 18:00, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Since people cannot be listed here without reliable sources, it would be most helpful if you could actually provide links to valid sources for Selznick and Sleator, since neither of their articles currently mention or source anything at all about their sexuality. Howe's does, although a better one would still be nice if possible. Bearcat (talk) 00:32, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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