Talk:List of Israeli massacres in Gaza 2023-2024

help completing the list

the list is not yet completed, and there are a lot more incidents to be included which is greater than the efforts of a sole wikipedian, but i believe more than enough content exist now so it can be published publishing. Airwars provides a very good comprehensive collection for much of the israeli strikes on gaza since the beginning of the war, which offers us a great source of information:

https://airwars.org/observation/entire-family-killed/

https://airwars.org/civilian-casualties/?country=the-gaza-strip&start_date=2023-10-07&belligerent=israeli-military

another source but of less quality and reliablity is this one too:

المجازر الإسرائيلية | فلسطيننا (pal48.ps)

Stephan rostie (talk) 17:27, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Concerns about the page

Hello, I see my warnings about the article were reverted, so I just want to elaborate on the concerns I have about this article.

1. The listing of casualties as footnotes are unencyclopedic and are extremely long. If this list is incomplete as you state and there are already 600 names, God knows how long the article will be if it is in a complete state. This may be a violation of WP:BLPNAME, and WP:NOTSTATS, where it says Statistics that lack context or explanation can reduce readability and may be confusing., and When the name of a private individual has not been widely disseminated or has been intentionally concealed, such as in certain court cases or occupations, it is often preferable to omit it, especially when doing so does not result in a significant loss of context. YMMV when it comes to what "widely disseminated" means.

2. This list needs a criteria for inclusion of what a "massacre" is. If you already have one, great! Please add it to the article. Words can be weapons and contentious, such as "terrorist". I am concerned about potential violations of neutrality if Wafa is used to describe a battle or a skirmish as a "massacre". With it absent, this article somewhat reads like a WP:POVFORK of Timeline of the Israel–Hamas war.

Cheers, -1ctinus📝🗨 12:24, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Yep, see WP:LISTCRITERIA. Selfstudier (talk) 12:34, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Hey,

1- i included the victims names and ages (when available) to as an very minor extra information especially that we lack articles about this incidents or their victims, they are merely included as a note (not as a column or a thing that would take a significant space for any main part of the article that would disrupt the article/list in any way) for any reader wanting to see some more details about the victims (e.g age and gender) or see more verification about the cited number of fatalities (this is important especially concerning denialism), I also don’t think Wikipedia:BLPNAME is relevant at all here in our context as it talks about creating a biography of living persons in the Wikipedia:BLP article (no body is definitely creating any biography here). At first you argued against the notes with Wikipedia:NOTMEMORIAL which happened to be actually saying the opposite of what you are arguing for in Wikipedia:NOTNOTMEMORIAL: With regard to mass casualty events (particularly mass shootings) it's never been alleged that editors adding victims to the event articles are doing so on behalf of friends, relatives, acquaintances or others. and NOTMEMORIAL is not a reason to exclude victims from an article on an event which covers their deaths. NOTMEMORIAL is not a reason to exclude details of who the victims are in an article on an event that covers their deaths.

2- i used the existing definition of a massacre we have in consensus here in wikipedia, which is an event of killing people who are not engaged in hostilities or are defenseless., i also took a comparative look at List of killings and massacres in Mandatory Palestine to ensure i am doing well. otherwise what do you propose calling the wiping out of entire families and mass killing of 18 or 60 individuals of a single family in a single airstrike ?, regarding Wafa there is not a single site where a massacre cites exclusively wafa, almost all massacres in the list cite at least two sources. Citing Wafa and state of palestine foreign ministry (never as sole sources) to support the occurrence and notability of a massacre or incident by multiple sources and its existence. These massacres (or “incidents”) have to be documented in a list and all are are well sourced with proven notability in multiple sources, they are not documented anywhere on wikipedia at all, so I don’t get how do you presume it as a WP:POVFORK (where is even the POV in reporting a notable sourced incident ?). I am not even arguing for creating an article about each massacre as in the arabic wikipedia, but just briefly collecting them each in a single row in a list in a single article. Stephan rostie (talk) 17:55, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

I hope this is not canvassing, but I saw @Duke of New Gwynedd had similar concerns about the article. I would appreciate if you gave insight on both of our opinions. -1ctinus📝🗨 16:37, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

I feel we should put all the tags back to the top of the page that Duke of New Gwynedd added, I also have the same concerns. Govvy (talk) 17:34, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Can you address the counterargument given above? -1ctinus📝🗨 17:44, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

This edit [1], I feel those tags should be put back that Stephan removed. I feel I shouldn't really partake to this article, it offends me it does. There has always been an issue of numbers as Hamas are known to lie about the number of deaths, they are known to inflate the numbers, and for posting people who have already died, making them die again! So there are always going to be issues. One of the sources, wafa.ps is not a reliable source. They are a terrorist funded website. Govvy (talk) 18:00, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Lots of opinions there. Wafa is an RS at the moment (newsorg). Most recent major discussion. Attribution is probably best. The IDF also tell porkies, arguably bigger ones. Stick to content. Selfstudier (talk) 18:08, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Consider me out oif the conversation. I remember why I don't participate in political topics on Wikipedia -1ctinus📝🗨 18:19, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

• Remove the victims names per WP:NOTMEMORIAL. Remove entries on the list if they are not supported by a reliable source that explicitly states it is a massacre. It is not Wikipedia's place to editorialize about what we think these entries on the list should be called. Stick to what reliable sources report. Isaidnoway (talk) 00:49, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Everything that Isaidnoway applies, especially WP:NOTMEMORIAL. Unless some of the dead are notable there is no value in such a long list of names. Unsourced entries should be removed too. Valenciano (talk) 07:52, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

@Stephan rostie: Just to add to the list of concerns/suggestions, I think you would have an easier time if the article was renamed to include killings in the title. That would allow you to include indiscriminate killings that are not necessarily deemed as a massacre by RS (which is not uncommon - there will always be a western bias). Also, take a look at the tables in similar articles like List of massacres in the Palestinian territories. The data looks cleaner that way. IMO it would be better to have a single column for deaths and another for notes that add context, especially for events that do not have their own articles. - Ïvana (talk) 15:22, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Move again?

@Primefac: You adjust the title, but it's still the wrong character between the years. :/ Govvy (talk) 17:31, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Endashes are hard. Feel free to move. Primefac (talk) 20:11, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Proposal and Discussion: LISTCRITERIA

Lately some users criticized the article for mainly two reasons, which are Wikipedia:LISTCRITERIA and Wikipedia:NOTMEMORIAL, so to make things more organized i am creating a new section for each with proposals to solve the concerns. This section will discuss LISTCRITERIA concerns.

Firstly i want to make it clear that massacre and the whipping out of entire families of 20 and 60 members of three generations of a single in a single israeli airstrike is well grounded and reported in all reliable sources: Time, Associated Press, LA Times, Amnesty international, Airwars, etc

so it is not a matter of notability concern at all of whether a such list should exist or not. And the vast majority of every single one of them is documented by reliable sources, most notably Airwars. However some users, most notably @Selfstudier, raised concerns of Wikipedia:List critieria regarding the inclusion of families massacre along with other more notable massacres such as e.g Super bowl Massacre. Therefore i have propose a solution alongside a the discussion of this issue, which summarizes in these options:

Option A: separating the list of the entire massacred and wiped out families from the other general massacres/attacks/killings/whatever term you use (we will discuss that in another section) such as e.g northern Gaza fleeing convoy massacre. making them into two lists.

Option B: keeping them on the same list and Wikipedia:LISTCRITERIA is not violated

I would personally support the proposal in Option A, it doesn’t hurt anyone in the end of the day, and perhaps makes the article more organized.

Stephan rostie (talk) 16:15, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

None of those four sources uses the word "massacre." If we want to create a list of massacres, we need sources that provide a list of "massacres," using that word. Levivich (talk) 17:30, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

The concern of the word “massacre” is being addressed in other talk section, also tons of the reliable sources reporting the individual incidents does identify them as massacres, and btw, what do you propose calling the israeli wiping out of entire families of 20 and 60 members across three generations in single airstrike ? What english word do you propose to use to describe that other than the english word "massacre" ? Stephan rostie (talk) 18:00, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Every entry on the list must be supported by a reliable source stating it is a massacre in order for it to be included. In cases where the membership criteria are subjective or likely to be disputed, it is especially important that inclusion be based on reliable sources. And ideally, we would also need reliable sources discussing these alleged massacres as a group by independent reliable sources to establish notability, since the majority of the entries on this list do not meet the notability criteria for their own article. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:16, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Exactly. Levivich (talk) 18:47, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Proposal and Discussion: NOTMEMORIAL

Lately some users criticized the article for mainly two reasons, which are Wikipedia:LISTCRITERIA and Wikipedia:NOTMEMORIAL, so to make things more organized i am creating a new section for each of the concerns. This section will discuss NOTMEMORIAL concerns.

several users criticized the inclusion of victim names of each massacre (when available) citing Wikipedia:NOTMEMORIAL, most notably by @1ctinus.

before getting further in details, please make sure you are fully aware of WP:NOTNOTMEMORIAL, which explicitly states NOTMEMORIAL is not a reason to exclude victims from an article on an event which covers their deaths. NOTMEMORIAL is not a reason to exclude details of who the victims are in an article on an event that covers their deaths and With regard to mass casualty events (particularly mass shootings) it's never been alleged that editors adding victims to the event articles are doing so on behalf of friends, relatives, acquaintances or others

the rationale behind the inclusion of victim names and ages in a small note is mainly due to concerns about denialism, which this small (mostly unnoticeable by readers) note on the side effectively counters, and i am not just talking about concerns for some wikipedia readers, but a concern that extends to fellow editors here as well, a very great example raising this concern is a fellow editor in the talks above

so should we keep the victim names note or be have it removed ? Stephan rostie (talk) 16:36, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

WP:NOTMEMORIAL is policy. WP:NOTNOTMEMORIAL is an essay. But even with that, the latter says it "is not a reason to exclude victims from an article on an event which covers their deaths." This is not an article on a particular event, it is a list on several events and I'm struggling to see the value for any reader in a large and random list of names. I don't see that there is any denialism involved since the number of casualties in each is explicitly stated. So, I would remove the lists of names. Valenciano (talk) 17:10, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Me too; remove the list of names. I am not at all convinced by the arguments in the NOTNOTMEMORIAL essay. I don't think a list of victims in mass-casualty events meets WP:NPOV policy (specifically WP:ASPECT). This is reinforced by the apparent fact that the vast majority of RS do not include a list of the dead in these massacres/attacks, and a specialty source (Airwaves) must be used. If the names were a significant WP:ASPECT, I believe more RSes would list the names. Levivich (talk) 17:33, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Me three, remove the list of names per WP:NOTMEMORIAL. And denialism is not relevant. Isaidnoway (talk) 17:47, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

If you look at the examples given by NOTNOTMEMORIAL they are about when it's appropriate to use victims names in prose, rather than being an excuse for creating memorials. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 10:19, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 17 August 2024

List of Israeli massacres in Gaza 2023-2024 → List of Israeli massacres and killings in Gaza 2023-2024 – Several users have issued concerns and debate on which incidents where israel killed large number of civilians or wiped out entire families should be classified as a massacre or not, @Ïvana made a good suggestion to rename the article to this new title, which would be fair enough for all and solve all concerns, which is also in correspondence with List of killings and massacres in Mandatory Palestine Stephan rostie (talk) 17:04, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Support. I personally find the proposal a good idea that would solve all concerns Stephan rostie (talk) 17:05, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

That seems like it would be a WP:CFORK of Casualties of the Israel–Hamas war. Having a list of the dead would violate WP:NOTMEMORIAL. A list of massacres can conceivably meet WP:NLIST; a list of "killings", in a war, cannot; that would just be a list of casualties. Levivich (talk) 17:28, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose, per Levivich. Creating a list of people who died seems to give undue weight to this war. We have List of massacres in Afghanistan and List of massacres in Iraq, both of which do not list killings, only massacres. — BerryForPerpetuity (talk) 19:04, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose I don't even like the current title, that propose title sounds even worse, I personally view the article as an affront and a WP:OR violation. Govvy (talk) 10:42, 18 August 2024 (UTC)