Talk:List of Human Target episodes

Issues

This discussion was moved from my talk page, so that more editors might pitch in more easily.

1st: MSN and TVGuide have reliable short summaries that are NOT copyright protected because, well, there short summaries. Do you have a Guideline link for this? 2nd: WP:RED states not to create a redlink in a Navboxes, or templates, so I will remove them in the info box, and keep them in the article.ChaosMaster16 (talk) 15:56, 16 January 2010 (UTC)ChaosMaster16

Furthermore:

Linking to copyrighted works Shortcuts: WP:COPYLINK WP:COPYLINKS WP:LINKVIO Since most recently-created works are copyrighted, almost any Wikipedia article which cites its sources will link to copyrighted material. It is not necessary to obtain the permission of a copyright holder before linking to copyrighted material, just as an author of a book does not need permission to cite someone else's work in their bibliography. Likewise, Wikipedia is not restricted to linking only to CC-BY-SA or open-source content.

However, if you know that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link to that copy of the work. An example would be linking to a site hosting the lyrics of many popular songs without permission from their copyright holders. Knowingly and intentionally directing others to a site that violates copyright has been considered a form of contributory infringement in the United States (Intellectual Reserve v. Utah Lighthouse Ministry [1]). Linking to a page that illegally distributes someone else's work sheds a bad light on Wikipedia and its editors. The copyright status of Internet archives in the United States is unclear, however. It is currently acceptable to link to internet archives such as the Wayback Machine, which host unmodified archived copies of webpages taken at various points in time. In articles about a website, it is acceptable to include a link to that website even if there are possible copyright violations somewhere on the site.

Context is also important; it may be acceptable to link to a reputable website's review of a particular film, even if it presents a still from the film (such uses are generally either explicitly permitted by distributors or allowed under fair use). However, linking directly to the still of the film removes the context and the site's justification for permitted use or fair use.

ChaosMaster16 (talk) 16:05, 16 January 2010 (UTC)ChaosMaster16

Both MSN and TVguide are websites that have their own copyright rules and regulations, just because they are summaries doesn't mean that they can't be copyrighted. Someone wrote them and someone owns them. You copied a nice piece out WP:COPY Unfortunately this is not about linking, it is about blatantly copy pasting the content of others. Saying what's in a movie is perfectly acceptable, just taking the movie out the store however is not. In other words "You may use external websites as a source of information, but not as a source of article content such as sentences or images." What you did was taking the content from another and then say, "hey, I got it from here". The point being there is a huge difference between linking and copying. Maybe WP:COPYEDIT might interest you.

WP:RED states that they are not included in See also and navigational boxes because the sole purpose of those is to link to other articles. the infobox on the other hand is a summarie-tool.

Also please let the other party actually have a chance to reply to you. "I disagree so I reverted it again" is not the the way wikipedia works. You already got banned for your disruptive editing and misinterpretations of the guidelines once.

As for the airdates in the episode list please see other shows that have had episodes air earlier in other countries like Stargate Atlantis, Sanctuary, Stargate SG-1, Defying Gravity, … _Xeworlebi ^(t•c) 16:40, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Human Target is syndicated in Canada, therefore, like 24, Smallville, FlashFoward, Lost, and many other notible TV series, does not list it's Canadian, UK, France, Mexican, or any other premiere first, whether it aired a week or twenty four hours before the USA premiere. The series premiere refers to the United States as it is a United Stated produced and broadcasted company. We can make a table stating International Distribution, with the Canadian premiere in the table, but that would be mor eappropriate when we see more countries' premiere dates. For right now, having a "Notes" section in the episode list would be approrpiate. The dates in the episode table will be American based, so there is no need to put a Canadian airdate there. We may have to put a note stating if the show is broadcast in Canada on Fridays, or something similar, but it is redundant to add information that we have in the lead of both pages in the article as it is not a Canadin television show.ChaosMaster16 (talk) 22:52, 16 January 2010 (UTC)ChaosMaster16

That doesn't matter, if the show airs in China first that would be the original airdate. Take a look at Sanctuary, a Canadian show. Though the episode list correctly displays the original airdate. None of the episodes have had a Canadian premiere.

Human Target is made by Bonanza Productions Inc., Wonderland Sound and Vision, DC Comics, Warner Bros. Television. and then sold for broadcasting to both Fox and CTV. This is first run syndication for both parties.

And please learn to have some courtesy and let us actually have a discussion without the constant reverting of the page. What the page says now is correct but might give the wrong impression if the person would not read the references.

I have undone two of you latest edits, but those have nothing to do with this discussion but thefutoncritic being unreliable for airdates and episode count. I have left your removal of CTV and Fox behind the airdates. Please stop editing to the article in question until this discussion has come to an and. Thanks. _Xeworlebi ^(t•c) 23:24, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Is there somewhere where we could post to see which one should be on the page, rather than arguing about it?ChaosMaster16 (talk) 23:32, 16 January 2010 (UTC)ChaosMaster16

When in disagreement one should discuss it with the other party until a resolution is made. I saw your post to Bignole, I really don't see how it is confusing to people. Nor why the rest of the episodes would need to be the canadian airdate either, when putting the channel it aired on after the date it's clear. See how Sanctuary, Stargate SG-1, Defying Gravity, Stargate Atlantis, Drive, … handle this. It is clear, gives the correct information and there is no need to stick to a single channel. _Xeworlebi ^(t•c) 13:18, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Just to weigh in. "Original airdate" is based on when the producing company airs the show. If a show airs early somewhere else it isn't considered the "original airdate" unless it's a wide spread release. Releasing in Canada two days early is not wide spread. The largest release will be in America alone, and then any additional country that also broadcasts it on that date. What is supposed to be done is a notation is supposed to be made on the episode(s) that air early, noting when and where they aired. If the premiere airs early, but every episode after that airs on time, then it's confusing to list a Canadian premiere followed by US airdates. We follow what the producing company's origin is. FOX is an American studio, thus Human Target is an American show. So, we would put the American airdates and make any notation (if necessary) as to why alternative airdates if they were significant (the Canadian one would be such).  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 14:02, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

I disagree (obviously), saying that the US will be the largest release is obvious, the US will always be the largest release, but is besides the point. Did you take a look at the other episode lists I presented? You would propose to remove all the airdates from Sanctuary and replace them with the Canadian airdates since it's a Canadian show, or would you say that because Syfy ordered the show the US ones should be used and the UK premiers removed? This is starting to sound a little like nationalistic pride. This is the English wikipedia not the American one. Besides that, Fox doesn't produce this show it ordered it. I find it not at all confusing when the proper channels are displayed (which ChaosMaster16 removed for no aparent reason). SG-1's episode list is a featured list and uses this principle for all seasons, the show had several UK episode premieres and thus those are shown. Take a look ate their discussions in the archives. I also took a look at the discussion archives from Smallville and the only thing I could find is someone asking it and getting a reply, no real discussion to speak of (not to diss you, you're entitled to your own opinions). _Xeworlebi ^(t•c) 14:45, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Though this is not Sanctuary's talk page, I would suggest putting the Canadian airings for the webisodes. For the TV series, if the UK premiered it first, then you would use the UK date. If the US premiered it first, you use that airdate. As for this article, producing a show is making the show, FOX makes the show. If it were to get picked up by, say, SyFy, then SyFy would produce the show. As for initial airings, I see this as the same line of a film. The production company gets the prominant role over the others, but we list other improtant airings in the article.ChaosMaster16 (talk) 03:27, 18 January 2010 (UTC)ChaosMaster16

Furthermore, WP:IAR? and WP:IGNORE basically state flat out that we should find the better way of doing things. Doing this means to be as straight foward and unconfusing as possible, and by the way Bignole and I stated, we re trying to be as unconfussing and straight foward as possible.ChaosMaster16 (talk) 03:46, 18 January 2010 (UTC)ChaosMaster16

You're arguing my point, Sanctuary is a Canadian show produced in Canada and ordered by Syfy (an American company). You say that if it premiered in the UK/US that that date should be shown and that is the way that it is done now. It is exactly the same situation here. Again, Fox does not produce or make the show, it ordered the show and green-lit production. CTV airs the show on TV thus it must have picked up the show, but just like Fox it does not produce or make the show.

Ignore all rules is not a means to ignore correctness, displaying the aired channel behind the date is as straight forward as can be. Denying the fact that the shows premieres original airdate was the Canadian airdate is not improving the article. Common sense says me original airdate is the original airdate and not the secondary airdate. _Xeworlebi ^(t•c) 04:08, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

"it ordered the show and green-lit production" , thus producing the show. Do you know what production is? Sanctuary is both produced in the USA and Canada because SyFy is producing [ordering it and greenlighting] it, yet the idea, the writing stage, and assumeably filming takes place in Canada. So the prominant airdate would be Canada, and a Note stating "Episode X aired Month, Day, Year, in America". With HT, if Canada decided "Let's not air Human Target", then production would not be hurt, because it is produced in the USA, CTV is syndicating it, and therefore a syndication does not usually determine the fate of the show (putting aside if the show does well in the USA, or if production can or cant go foward because of financial issues). Merlin is a UK produced show. It aired in the USA this past summer on NBC. The show did (in simple terms) horrible on NBC, and though it did horrible in the USA, and probably will not air again on NBC in the USA in the near future, production went head with a second and third series because of the success in the UK, not because of syndication failure.ChaosMaster16 (talk) 00:45, 19 January 2010 (UTC)ChaosMaster16

You're getting this wrong. Ordering a show is not producing it. Wonderland Sound and Vision, a company from McG is the production house and thus produces the show. The reason why the show would get hurt if Fox would stop showing it is because the production company would loose it's main insurance of selling the show to it. At that point, and this has happened many times, another network could become the main requesting network, and having an agreement with the production company to make X-amount of episodes and agreeing to buy those. And this could well be a network outside the production country. Sanctuary is for al intense and purposes a Canadian show, just because its main insurance investor is based in another country does not change the fact that production is in Canada. But now you're backtracking. First you said that if the show had a US/UK premier that date would be used "if the UK premiered it first, then you would use the UK date. If the US premiered it first, you use that airdate", now you say it should be the Canadian one? Even though none of the Canadian airdates have been the original airdates and are often not even the second one to air it.

SG-1 has had lengthy discussions about this and its outcome shows in its episode lists FL status, and the way that other shows like Sanctuary and SG-1's spin offs Stargate Atlantis and Stargate Universe handle this.

But to get back to the point, the original airdate is the original airdate, not the secondary, tertiary, quaternary, … airdate. Despite what countries or networks are involved. The word original is the keyword here. Wikipedia is not the place for nationalistic pride, promoting the content from a specific country above another one, just because it is that country is not acceptable. _Xeworlebi ^(t•c) 02:00, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Then why not use a note? Use the FOX airdate since its the main one, and then have Canada's episode was aired two days ealier?ChaosMaster16 (talk) 02:04, 19 January 2010 (UTC)ChaosMaster16

(←) Because the original airdate is the main one. I have no problem with a note when Fox aired it after the original airdate though. _Xeworlebi ^(t•c) 02:10, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

That sound reasonable to me. I'll do it after your next response if you want.ChaosMaster16 (talk) 02:19, 19 January 2010 (UTC)ChaosMaster16

No sweat, I've done it myself, thanks for offering though. _Xeworlebi ^(t•c) 10:17, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

References

I feel the references for this page are pretty ridiculous. Is it really necessary to cite references for episodes that have already aired, especially when the reference for the episode don't actually link anywhere and just send you back up the page. There's also multiple references for various episodes that just go the CTV Human Target main page and don't actually back up what it's referencing (the air dates). Drovethrughosts (talk) 17:18, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

The references for the episodes already aired can be deleted. Those for the air dates are there because there was a minor disagreement with what was the original air date should be. So I started to source them for CTV for future air dates, the problem with CTV's website is that they don't have a clean page with a schedule or something like it (or at least I haven't found it). And as soon as an episode airs the original text is gone, that's why I used the |quote= parameter. I have no problem with the removal of them though.

On a side note, I saw that you were born in Canada, do you happen to know if episode 7: "Salvage & Reclamation" aired earlier in Canada than in the US? I haven't found a decent website for Canadian air dates, like TV.MSN etc. for the US, it's quite annoying finding stable sources for shows and air dates in Canada. Thanks. _Xeworlebi ^(t•c) 19:04, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I went ahead and removed references for episodes that have already aired. And yeah, I've looked around for a list of Canadian air dates, but can't find anything besides the CTV website. For whatever reason, I don't get Human Target on CTV, I watch it on Wednesdays on Fox. Also, I suggest using the futon critic for US air dates and information, as they use official press releases from Fox, the Human Target page is located here with the episode listings here. Drovethrughosts (talk) 21:12, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Ratings

Would anyone have a problem with me removing the both the ratings tables and then just insert the US viewers (millions) data into the episode tables? All the stuff about ratings/share, 18-49 demographic numbers is a bit gratuitous. Plus it would streamline the page so you don't have to scroll past the two tables to get to the season 2 episode table. Drovethrughosts (talk) 21:31, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Strong support, you might be interested in the current discussion and the proposal to remove additional ratings tables. _Xeworlebi ^(talk) 21:51, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Mistress

Wether you think she's his mistress or not is irrelevant, whatever your feelings towards the word "mistress" are is also irrelevant. Guerrero calls her flat out his mistress. The Fox recap also names her mistress and talks about the supposedly affair. The word "possible" in the summary is more than sufficient to inform the reader that they don't know for sure. Overall the summary was more complete and accurate with the mistress/affair in it. _Xeworlebi ^(talk) 22:06, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

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