Talk:List of Degrassi: The Next Generation characters

Latest comment: 11 months ago by MaterialWorks in topic Requested move 10 November 2023

taken directly from TeenNick website?

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Is this article taken directly from the TeenNick website? I don't really feel like navigating through that to find out, but it sounds like character bios from their website, not encyclopedic at all!!! Applepwnz 06:26, 20 November 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Applepwnz (talkcontribs)

opening credits order

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What determines the order of the opening credits? It changes from season to season. It isn't alphabetical and usually bears little relationship to the importance of the characters. For example, in Season 4 Stacey Farber (Ellie) is first, but her character is peripheral to most of the storylines in the season. --Mathew5000 (talk) 09:06, 24 March 2008 (UTC)Reply

Formatting

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I think this page could use a little formatting for easy reading. I was considering changing the characters into a table similar to that in the list of Skins characters article (with, of course, would be edited to suit the Degrassi series). I think it would also force us to edit (read: shorten) the characters respective biographies on this Degrassi article, which is needed because many of the characters (notably Toby, J.T., and Craig, as well as many minor characters) have biographies much too long for this article.

Thoughts? Ideas? Supports? Opposes? - k|e|n|g - t | c - 05:06, 29 June 2008 (UTC)Reply

No oppositions? Okay I'm getting started. - k|e|n|g - t | c - 03:49, 14 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
Completed. I personally believe this looks much, much better than the previous version. It's easier to read, easier to locate names of characters and their actors, and they are in order of appearance (season 1 at the top of the table, season 7 at the bottom). Furthermore, I copy edited all character descriptions. - k|e|n|g - t | c - 03:18, 17 July 2008 (UTC)Reply

This article needs a more professional format, it seems more like a prelude to a story than an encyclopedia article Terminus777 (talk) 05:51, 27 November 2009 (UTC)Reply

Similar article

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A similar article to this one was created, and I nominated it for deletion. Please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Degrassi: The Next Generation cast members and post your opinion. - k|e|n|g - t | c - 03:49, 14 July 2008 (UTC)Reply

Alli Bhandari

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Does anyone know for certain if Alli Bhandari is rebeling from a conservative Muslim family? Her last name is Hindu-sounding. I think she is rebeling from a strict Hindu and/or Sikh family, not a Muslim one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.243.36 (talk) 05:43, 14 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

I'm not sure, but I think either the webpage at the-n.com, degrassi.tv, or the recent press release should say something definitive. Matthewedwards (talk contribs  email) 18:51, 14 October 2008 (UTC)Reply
She says in one of the episodes that she is from a Muslim family, and tells Anya that her parents would approve of her if she was Muslim.--24.128.152.170 (talk) 03:39, 10 September 2009 (UTC)Reply
I thought she was Muslim, too, until yesterday's episode where her new boyfriend Drew said something along the lines of "Is that Hindi for yes?" when he was trying to get her to agree to take him back. And Bhandari is a Hindu name, there's even a wikipedia article for the name.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.180.69.50 (talk) 02:17, 13 August 2010 (UTC)Reply

It's a Muslim family, that's why Anya was going to turn Muslim for Savv. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.45.83.103 (talk) 22:29, 11 June 2011 (UTC)Reply

Marco Del Rossi

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Redirects here. What's up with that? Didn't he have an article? This article still links to his article, but it seems like someone deleted it.J'onn J'onzz (talk) 15:33, 23 November 2008 (UTC)Reply


Now everything redirects here :/. Only Emma Nelson is still working. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.187.92.178 (talk) 18:45, 8 May 2009 (UTC)Reply

The school counselor

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I was wondering why the school counselor is not mentioned among the other faculty in the series. She has had a recurring role in several seasons by this point and would be a good addition to the list. 198.82.79.74 (talk) 22:20, 6 November 2009 (UTC)Reply

Horribly written

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This is real bad especially for the new characters an encyclopedia is supposed to give out informations not aske questions or presume like this page it needs to be re-written The Movie Master 1 (talk) 22:01, 2 January 2010 (UTC)Reply

Removal of "Appeared in..."

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I just wanted to let people know that I removed the lines in the at the end of each character descriptions that stated "Appeared in Degrassi goes Hollywood or Manhattan" as it was an extraneous part of the page. If there is a part right next to the name telling which seasons they were a part of, including if they made small guest appearances in subsequent seasons (as per Liberty) as well as there being comments made in their character description such as "Spinner and Emma were married in "Degrassi takes Manhattan" under Spike and Emma's descriptions, what need is there for the other descriptions.

These two movies were actually the Four final episodes of series 9 and 10 anyways. Finally, there are also two separate pages for the Hollywood and Manhattan movies, so people can just click on those to see who was in which movie and who was not. I'm only trying to clean up the page and make it more accessible and clear. I've left the other information as it's constructive notes but the movie appearances were just repetitive. Just trying to help.70.53.224.35 (talk) 10:42, 21 July 2010 (UTC) samusek2Reply

Adam Torres

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The section of this article for the character Adam Torres has come under some debate. Here is an explanation of my recent edits:

   *I withdrew my objection to referring to Adam as a "biological female," as the terminology is debatable.

I would like to refer to the Wikipedia Manual of Style's Section on Identity. From this article, it is clear that Adam should be referred to as "he" just as any other male character:

   "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to using the gendered nouns, pronouns, and possessive adjectives that
    reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies when referring to any phase of that person's life."

Please note that gendered pronouns AND nouns are included here. Names like "Gracie" and "Adam" are quite obviously gendered nouns.

It is a common and widely accepted practice to use a transgender person's target-gender name in the same way one would use a cisgender person's birth name. The idea that a transgender person's target-gender name (I avoid saying "chosen" because that's not always the case) is analogous to a cisgender person's nickname implies that transgender people are simply pretending to be their target genders. I could easily argue that this concept leads to harassment, violence, and murder, but that's not the point. It is simply inaccurate; Adam is a boy.

The use of a transgender person's birth name is seldom used to refer to that person outside of direct and intentional insults to that person's dignity. Applying quotation marks to gendered language (including names) associated with a transgender person's target gender is almost always intended as an insult. This is the first time I've ever seen quotation marks used in this way without clearly contemptuous intentions.

Further, I object to the sentence, "Adam is the show's first transgender character, being born female, however identifies as a male," as the use of the word "however" implies that it is contradictory for a person born with female anatomy to identify as male. I fully realize that the vast majority of individuals born with female anatomy do, in fact, identify as female, but not all do. Being born with female anatomy does not imply a female identity; it drastically increases the probability of female identity. Moreover, Adam was never entirely female (though the use of "biologically female" is marginally acceptable). In fact, he states, "I was never a girl" in "My Body is a Cage" Part I.

More importantly, every other character on that list is referred to using the gendered language associated with their target genders. This includes the use of names that are associated with and appropriate for persons of their target genders. No other character on the list has cause to interpret the use of their birth names as an insult. No other character considers a name other than their birth name to be their real name. No other character uses their birth name in the third person to refer the state of being in the closet about their true gender. The fact that their target genders are aligned with the genders they were assigned at birth does is trivial. I contend that referring to him by his birth name or hesitating to use appropriately gendered language to refer to him is unfairly singling this character out. ATgirl (talk) 18:01, 21 August 2010 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the educational rewrite. 117Avenue (talk) 07:15, 23 August 2010 (UTC)Reply

Requires serious grammatical editing

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This page is littered with grammatical errors. "She decides after discovering that her father is back from Afghanistan and suffering with post traumatic stress disorder," as an example, is a (recently edited) sentence fragment. Then again, there is also the repeated use of 'her' where 'she' is more appropriate. "Her and her roommates," and "her and Marco" are only the examples I found in the section concerning Ellie. Just saying. McFerocious (talk) 18:31, 1 November 2010 (UTC)Reply

That's what you get when a page is edited by teen fans. The only thing that can be done is clean it up. 117Avenue (talk) 04:34, 2 November 2010 (UTC)Reply
Here's another one that I can't fix because I don't know its meaning: "Rick shoots him in the back, which causes him to use a wheelchair throughout the rest of the series, who was tricked into thinking Jimmy pulled a prank on him by Spinner and Jay, resulting in Jimmy ending his friendship with Spinner until season 6."Dominicanpapi82 (talk) 13:22, 23 November 2011 (UTC)Reply
  Done Fixed this one for you. Punkminkis (talk) 19:07, 25 July 2012 (UTC)Reply

Should Vince (played by Brendan Jeffers) and Charlie be included in the list of Degrassi: TNG characters?

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Should Vince (played by Brendan Jeffers) and Charlie Lima (played by Tamara Duarte) be included in the list of Degrassi: TNG characters?--Jax 0677 (talk) 21:37, 30 December 2011 (UTC)Reply

Add "Vince" and "Charlotte 'Charlie' Lima" If the only isssue is that the article is becoming too long, then we should split the article into two separate articles, one for Major Characters, and one for Minor Characters. Vince should be considered at least a minor character, as he appeared in over 25% of the Season 11 episodes aired thus far. Charlie Lima will have starred in over twenty Season 11 episodes before the end of 2012, making her a minor character as well.--Jax 0677 (talk) 01:51, 31 December 2011 (UTC)Reply

The show is approaching 300 episodes, appearing in a couple of episodes still isn't enough to make them a minor or recurring character. Also, how to you know Charlie will be in over 20 episodes? We don't predict the future here on Wikipedia, we just know the few she has appeared in. If we include a character that has only appeared in a couple of episodes, how many others will need to be added? I don't want to see this page fall into fancruft, with every detail needing to be mentioned, this isn't the Degrassi wiki. I had considered splitting this page into two, due to the changing cast, but the problem is where to draw the line? Every season has had characters return from the previous season. 117Avenue (talk) 04:22, 1 January 2012 (UTC)Reply
Comment According to http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2781731/filmoseries#tt0288937, Duarte is scheduled to appear in 28 episodes of DeGrassi. Mishu Vellani has only starred in 17 episodes to date, but is listed as a minor character. That being said, perhaps Charlotte Lima can be added once she stars in more episodes? Also, under Regulars, it says:
"The season(s) they appear as "recurring" means they weren't featured in the credits, yet still star in the season frequently.
The season(s) where they made a "guest appearance" means they were starring in no more than two episodes."
Under Minor characters, it says:
"List of characters that had major roles, yet never appeared in the opening credits (recurring)"
In my opinion, Vince played a major role in Season 11 by having Bianca perform his work for him.
--Jax 0677 (talk) 04:51, 1 January 2012 (UTC)Reply
I didn't say it was a great article, as it is. It does need a lot of clean up. 117Avenue (talk) 05:16, 1 January 2012 (UTC)Reply

Holly J. Sinclair

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Is Charlotte Arnold confirmed for the second half of season 11? It says 7-present while the rest of the graduated class ends at 11. For example Raymond Ablack is 7 (recurrring) 8-11 (regular). Could someone please say where you got that information? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.77.2.199 (talk) 02:31, 25 January 2012 (UTC)Reply

Formatting adjustment

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I'm planning on making graphs for each character/season. Like you find on Band pages, the ones that show what years what member were in a band.. I think that will make the whole thing easier to read... It's kind of a mess, but that's just because there are as many characters.

I'll probably lay the format out, and work on it as I can. Anyone who wants to help, you'll see what I'm up to..All will be clear when I start. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GuyApollo (talkcontribs) 19:31, 28 March 2012 (UTC)Reply

I've been thinking about doing this for some time. I have made the rows smaller, to reduce white space. Also, many of your bars ended at the beginning of the last season a character was seen in, I have fixed this. I also added lines for 10.5 and 11.5, because there were cast changes in the middle of those seasons. 117Avenue (talk) 03:14, 8 April 2012 (UTC)Reply
Visited the page to specifically view the timeline, for some reason it wasn't showing. Found your edit of "hidden begin" on line 3, discovered it was hiding the entire timeline. Not sure if this was your intention, but I unhid the timeline. Punkminkis (talk) 20:02, 29 July 2012 (UTC)Reply
I hid it, because it is a large graphic, you are forced to scroll past it to get to the article contents, and it causes the window to become too wide. A user shouldn't have to be forced to view it. 117Avenue (talk) 02:51, 30 July 2012 (UTC)Reply
I do agree that it is rather large. Is there a way to set it as a picture that is window size, and you can click on it to read the whole thing? Punkminkis (talk) 14:53, 30 July 2012 (UTC)Reply
Sure, one could upload an image. But, then it would no longer be publicly editable. On the other hand, it would reduce the size of this page... 117Avenue (talk) 04:55, 31 July 2012 (UTC)Reply
Ok, I have created a new page with the timeline being the only thing on there. Once that is approved, I will remove this timeline and link to that one. -Punkminkis (talk) 14:40, 27 August 2012 (UTC)Reply
And now that is complete. I had help from another editor in creating a template page that includes the timeline. If I linked to the page wrong, please fix it. -PUNKMINKIS (TALK) 04:07, 30 August 2012 (UTC)Reply
So, you complain the timeline is too big for this page. When I make a secondary page to put the timeline on, you end up removing the link AND deleting my page. I'm confused... -PUNKMINKIS (TALK) 13:38, 30 August 2012 (UTC)Reply
Templates aren't articles (intro, help). 117Avenue (talk) 01:32, 31 August 2012 (UTC)Reply
Well, I did make an article, but it got denied, and the guy turned it into a template. Oh well, that was the only thing I could think of to reduce the size of this page while still having the timeline. Out of curiosity, what was so wrong with that? -PUNKMINKIS (TALK) 03:28, 31 August 2012 (UTC)Reply

Hazel Aden

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Didn't Andrea Lewis appear in one of the University episodes with Marco and Ellie? — Preceding unsigned comment added by GuyApollo (talkcontribs) 20:53, 28 March 2012 (UTC)Reply

I did some major editing.

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If anyone has the knowledge, please make a Guest star section.. All I know for sure Is Kevin Smith and Jason Mewes. --GuyApollo (talk) 23:44, 28 March 2012 (UTC)Reply

As stated above, this page hasn't gotten too long, and if every character that has appeared a couple of times is listed, it would be outrageously long and complex. 117Avenue (talk) 03:29, 29 March 2012 (UTC)Reply

Star being the operative word. I know some famous Canadian actors have had guest appearances on the show. I'm not talking about extras. I'm talking about people I don't know, because I'm not Canadian. This seems like good information to add. As it is interesting, informative, and can introduce people to forgen actors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GuyApollo (talkcontribs) 04:35, 1 April 2012 (UTC)Reply

Appearances in mini episodes

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Craig Manning: He didn't appear in Season 1, so that seems appropriate. He was certainly a regular from Season 2 until 5, having frequent episodes through all four seasons. He only appeared in two episodes of Season 6, with several mentions, which quite frankly made him a guest appearance star that season. Like wise for Season 7, as he appeared in the episode, "Bust A Move", mentioned in "It's Tricky", and another mention after that. I would definitely determine him as a recurring character in Season 8; mentioned once (by Emma and Manny in a discussion) or twice, starred in three mini episodes, and four main episodes (since Degrassi Goes Hollywood, 2009, counts as four individual episodes when not shown as an entire film. I'm glad I got things straight with that.

Paige Michalchuk: Paige appeared throughout Season 1 until Season 7 as a regular character, based on the fact she had prominent roles in numerous episodes, and major plots in each season. In Season 8, Paige appeared in four episodes (counting Degrassi Goes Hollywood as its separate four episodes that make it up, "Paradise City"). Without any mentions or appearances in any mini episodes, I would determine her as a guest appearance star or recurring star at maximum, for that season alone. Despite being mentioned several times throughout Seasons 9 and 10, Paige did not physically appear onscreen. However, in the latter half of Season 11, a four part mini episode was produced, with Paige guest starring in half of that four part mini episode, called "The Power Play". Paige played an important part in that mini episode. Obviously, this does not amount to a recurring billing and certainly not a regular billing; yet, she should definitely be considered a guest appearance character in Season 11. The mini episode, in which Paige appeared in during Season 11, was the ONLY mini episode to take place during that season. The mini episode occurred around the same time as the second half of Season 11, (11.32, "New Beginnings") aired. Take Manny Santos, for instance, she made a brief appearance, for the first time since the Season 9 finale, "Degrassi Takes Manhatten", in Season 11's finale, "In The Cold, Cold Night" - seen looking at dresses with Holly J. Sinclair. Manny has been accounted for that appearance as a guest appearance star. Paige should be as well.

J.T. Yorke: J.T. was evidently a regular starring character on Degrassi through Seasons 1 until 6. Even after his death in Season 6, he appeared in a couple mini episodes until the end of the season and was mentioned multiple times. His legacy, to this day, lives on within Degrassi. However, it should be noted that J.T. Yorke made his first physical appearance onscreen in the Degrassi franchise since Season 6, during a multi-arc mini episode during Season 9, named "Ghost of Degrassi Past". As I stated above for Paige Michalchuk and her appearance in Season 11, J.T. should be accounted as a guest appearance star in Season 9.

Rick Murray: I do not understand why it is that Rick Murray is not credited much as a character at all really. Rick was a recurring character throughout Seasons 3 and 4. His bullying boiling into a homicidal plot, was a storyline that changed Degrassi's history forever. He should be account as a recurring character in Season 3 and 4. Even after his death in Season 4, he was mentioned multiple times the rest of the season. During Season 8, a mini episode was dedicated to the aftermath of Rick Murray's death, three years since the shooting incident. It is worth noting that this episode (8.4.5) is one of Holly J. Sinclair's portrayer's favourite episodes. Rick Murray made an appearance as a ghost, haunting those he found to be negative, and making a number of voice lines in the episode. Rick Murray should be accounted for this episode of Season 8, as a guest appearance star. The episode was called "Curse of Degrassi". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.246.99.57 (talk) 00:45, 5 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Caitlyn Ryan: Season 1 through 2, I agree that Caitlyn was a recurring character, as she had reasonable; yet, minimal parts in various episodes from the first two season's of the show's reincarnation. Seasons 3 through four, she became more prominent with her revived relationship with Joey. She was credited as a regular character and I would consider her a regular character for those two seasons as well. However, I do recall her making an appearance in one episode during season 5, to console her best friend, Christine "Spike" Nelson, during her separation from Archie "Snake" Simpson. This appearance in season 5, should absolutely account her as a guest appearance character for season 5. She was mentioned several times throughout the season. As we also all know, she returned during an episode of season 7, named "Jessie's Girl", in which she unintentionally slept with Jessie and came between he and Ellie Nash. She was mentioned several times throughout the season as well as the next.

Ashley Kerwin: Ashley was one of the show's main characters throughout Season 1 until 4, based on the number of storylines revolving around her and all the episodes she starred (which were almost, if not, all). Season 5, she made one appearance in the final episode of the season, "High Fidelity". Throughout season 5, before her appearance, she was mentioned on an occasional basis; for instance, breaking things off with Craig to be with her European love interest, Alister. Seasons 6 through 7, Ashley played important roles as Jimmy's girlfriend, once they had reconciled. Though, she was not appearing on a regular basis and dropped from recurring status heading into Season 8, after breaking up with Jimmy and going on tour with Craig. In Season 8, Ashley was mentioned a certain amount of times; for example, in Degrassi Goes Hollywood, Craig tells Ellie how he and Ashley went their separate ways after touring together. Throughout Season 8, she made an appearance in three mini episodes. I believe this amounts to her being at least considered a guest appearing character for that season. She has not been seen or mentioned since, though. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.246.99.57 (talk) 21:53, 5 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Sean Cameron: From Season 1 until Season 4, Sean was definitely a regular character; Sean had major storylines each season: relationships with Emma, Amy, Ellie. The school shooting, where Rick ended up dying in a struggle with Sean, who tried to suicide afterward, among other storylines. Through Sean was dropped from regular character status, he was mentioned several times in Season 5 by several other characters, like Ellie, and he starred in a two part mini episode, name "Don't Forget About Me". He should be noted as a guest appearance star for that season. Sean returned to his regular character billing in Season 6, when he reunited with Emma, became rivals with Peter, etc. In Season 7, he was mentioned again, appeared in a couple episodes, and appeared in an episode helping Archie "Snake" Simpson and getting closure with Emma. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.246.99.57 (talk) 22:02, 5 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

This is a list of Degrassi: The Next Generation characters, and their appearances in said show. An appearance in a "mini episode" or special episode is not an appearance in Degrassi: The Next Generation. Only for the unseen character, are mentions used to determine the status of a character's appearance in the show. As stated in the Regulars section, a regular is someone who appears in the opening credits, so although Rick may have appeared in season 4 more than Caitlin did in season 5, the producers decided to make Caitlin a regular, and Rick not. Please stop making non-canonical additions. Thanks, 117Avenue (talk) 06:16, 14 January 2013 (UTC)Reply


Why are you even in charge of this Wikipedia page anyways? I'm a bigger Degrassi:TNG fan than you are buddy, TRUST ME, because based on what I've seen from you, you do NOT have your facts straight. The producers of Degrassi:TNG, MAKE those mini episodes and special episodes, etc. They count for something buddy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.246.99.57 (talk) 01:43, 27 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

But not the TV show Degrassi: The Next Generation, which is the qualification for this list. 117Avenue (talk) 06:07, 27 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Incomplete and not update-to-date

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It looks like people stopped editing this page somewhere around seasons 13–14. But it definitely seems to be missing the ultimate fates of some of the characters – e.g. I believe Imogen graduated in the series finale, but this article only goes up through her dating Jack. Etc. Someone who watched the last couple of seasons needs to go through the bios and update them (and possibly include developments from Degrassi: Next Class, as well). --IJBall (contribstalk) 16:26, 7 May 2016 (UTC)Reply

What does this mean

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"The series is now considered the first incarnation" in the lede is incomprehensible to anyone like me who doesn't know the franchise. Please could someone with knowledge rewrite this clearly? 109.145.34.55 (talk) 01:02, 16 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

Character things are wrong

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I noticed that several of the listings of the characters / what seasons they appear in are wrong, and i dont know how to fix them so i thought id write them here in hopes that someone will fix them.

Ellie Nash - It states that she was a guest in season 1, despite the fact that she made her first appearance in 2x04, in which she began a recurring role. Her being listed as a guest in season 1 should be deleted.

Anya MacPherson - she made no appearance in season 6 that i recall. Her first appearance was 7x01, where she began her recurring role. The page says she was a guest in season 6, but she wasn't so that should be removed.

Mo Mashkour - It states that he was a guest in season 9, which the actor did in fact have a small role in a season 9 episode, but considering he was uncredited, i think that it should only be noted in his character description rather than it be listed that his character was a guest in season 9. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.123.159.148 (talk) 02:12, 8 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Rick template message

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What should we do about the template message? Should it just get removed because Rick isn't a main character or should there be a separate section for significant recurring characters? I've seen a lot of fans list Rick alongside the other main characters, even though he didn't receive main cast billing TopHatTurtle1 (talk) 06:59, 16 July 2023 (UTC)Reply

Requested move 10 November 2023

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Not the place to discuss mergers. (closed by non-admin page mover)MaterialWorks 21:58, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply


List of Degrassi: The Next Generation charactersList of Degrassi characters (2001–2017) – I recently moved List of Degrassi Junior High and Degrassi High characters to List of Degrassi characters (1987–1992) because it's more concise. Since Next Generation articles seem to get more attention, I've decided to request this move. I reckon this article should be renamed and List of Degrassi: Next Class characters merged into it. Not just for conciseness and consistency but also because the Next Class article on its own lacks adequate sources, and since it's largely comprised of holdovers from the previous series, it makes more sense to just combine the two together. This might be controversial, but I just think it's neater that way. ToQ100gou (talk) 20:59, 10 November 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. EggRoll97 (talk) 21:14, 17 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.