Talk:Lismore, Scotland

Meaning

Lios as far as i know doesn mean garden but means a fort and since there are two ruined strongholds on the island i think that why it has that name.

The Scottish Parliament's Gaelic Placename website [1] says that it means Big garden--JBellis 19:00, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

- The meaning of Lios Mor has often caused debate and confusion. Ian Carmichael on p32 and p47 of Lismore in Alba opines that the island was called the Island of Loarn until Moluag founded his community there. On p48 he says that lios is a fort or fortified enclosure. He refers to Skene (WF Skene Celtic Scotland) who stated that lios applied to the circumvallation which marked the limits of of the enclosure of a Christian community, and which was often erected of earth or stone. 17 June 2006 Young Bachuil

Dwelly’s content too obscure?

Most of the chunk of text taken from Dwelly is very obscure and uses language that is difficult to comprehend for the modern reader. I suggest that it be removed or re-written in modern English indicating the sigificance of the content.--JBellis 10:24, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I like the Dwelly content. The chance to include some old references is too good to pass up, in my opinion. However, I do agree with you that in the obscure phrases a modern English "translation" would be helpful. Isoxyl 13:02, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Move request

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: speedily moved back. If a user wants to propose that the article be moved to Isle of Lismore, that should be done by starting a fresh nomination on this page, not by unilaterally moving it. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 22:34, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

---

Isle of Lismore → Lismore, Scotland –. Moved to "Isle of Lismore" without any discussion, and now wrapped up in a discussion because a duplicate category was also created - see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2012 April 29. The correct title is Lismore, Scotland, per WP:PLACE. If need be, "Lismore Firth of Lorn" or similar would be a credible alternative. "Isle of" is not geographically correct and is not generally used either by the Ordnance Survey mapping or in formal geography articles. I have not simply deleted the new redirect page as I am clearly "involved". Ben MacDui 14:40, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

• ObjectPresent naming is in line with other Argyll islands needing disambiguation such Isle of Bute and Isle of Mull. Also note the wider common use of the name Isle of Lismore Community Website,Walks on the Isle of Lismore and such like. RafikiSykes(talk) 14:24, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Comment: "Isle of is NOT used by the following reliable sources:

• Baird, Bob (1995) Shipwrecks of the West of Scotland. Glasgow. Nekton Books. ISBN 1897995024
• Keay, J. & Keay, J. (1994) Collins Encyclopaedia of Scotland. London. HarperCollins. ISBN 000255082
• Murray, W.H. (1973) The Islands of Western Scotland: the Inner and Outer Hebrides. London. Eyre Methuen. ISBN 0413303802
• Murray, W.H. (1966) The Hebrides. London. Heinemann.
• Ordnance survey
• Scottish Natural Heritage

to name but a few, but it is used by tourist-oriented websites. Ben MacDui

[2] Shows Isle of Lismore being commonly used back to Victorian times. Note several of the books above are specificly about islands so Using "isle of" for all of them within the text would would surey have rapidly repetitive.RafikiSykes (talk) 15:15, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

The comma then disambiguator after island name generally seems to be used when there are multiple islands by that name. When there only one island by a name the isle part is a common disambiguation and is surely the most majore difference from the others with the name.RafikiSykes (talk) 15:27, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

If you look through the various categories you will see numerous other examples such as Harris, Outer Hebrides and St Kilda, Scotland. According to Haswell-Smith's lists only the Isle of Ewe, the Isle of May and Isle Martin of the larger Scottish islands use the "Isle" nomenclature in a formal sense. Although e.g. An t-Eilean Sgitheanach in Gaelic is commonplace, in English this use is little different from say "London Town" or the "City of Seattle" - interesting PR, poor geography. Ben MacDui 16:15, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

St Kilda is an archipelago though surely so not the most apt comparison as the "isle of" wouldn't fit it? Also Harris, Outer Hebrides is part of Lewis and Harris so being non singular the "isle of" wouldnt fit so well and it is not so easy to compare to Lismore. RafikiSykes (talk) 16:39, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Try Jura, Scotland, Muck, Scotland etc. etc. The point you are missing is that Bute and Mull are the exceptions, rather than the rule and you have not addressed the WP:Place issue. Ben MacDui 17:20, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

We're not in Victorian times anymore. I too object to the speedy and the new name. At the very least, this should have been debated. Akerbeltz (talk) 16:58, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

I was simply showing that as the earliest showing in a very quick search. modern usage is easily shown in this 2012 article from ForArgyll the Argyll news site http://forargyll.com/2012/02/pine-falls-manitoba-and-argylls-walking-theatre-clompany-the-day-we-danced-with-canada/RafikiSykes (talk) 17:11, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Also note the use of the title by the community themselves on the website. http://www.isleoflismore.com/RafikiSykes (talk) 17:17, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Indeed yes - on the home page they say "Lismore is an island". A website title, even a community name, is not the same as an island name. Ben MacDui 17:22, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Also present day major newpaper usage so not purely Victorian times. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/greenproperty/8743846/Green-property-New-uses-for-wool.html RafikiSykes (talk) 17:30, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

• Move back to Lismore, Scotland. The onus is on the mover to show that Isle of Lismore is the correct name for an article that begins "Lismore is" (and the prevailing format in Category:Islands of the Inner Hebrides does not include 'Island'). Oculi (talk) 18:07, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Lismore, Scotland/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:56, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

I'll go through and make straightforward changes (please revert if I inadvertently change the meaning) and jot queries below. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:56, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

• The climate is damp and mild, with over 166 centimetres (65 in) of rain recorded annually and the economy is largely based on farming fishing and tourism. -needs to be a comma between farming and fishing, and the two items joined by an "and" are a bit unrelated. I didn't rejig it as the lead should have the island's size and largest town in it somewhere and so have left for you to juggle.

Done save that there is no 'town'. Achnacroish has a population of (estimating from the map) between 20 and 30 and don't know of any stats produced for settlements of this size. It is in the infobox but I have added it here too.

• This fertile, low-lying island, was once a major centre of Celtic Christianity, - no comma after island.

Done.

• Local tradition records various stories about island life in earlier times. - bit vague and probably true of many places - I'd ditch it from the lead.

Done.

• During the early part of this period the population exceeded 1,000 followed by a lengthy decline and although it now numbers less than 200 there was an increase in residents from 2001 to 2011. - sentence is a bit of a mess - I was going to rejig it but had no idea over what period the decline came over. Also needs a comma after 200.

Done.

• Etymology section is brief - can anything be added about when the current name was used and spelling variants etc.

I was surprised at how little was available from the obvious sources. I will look into this further.

Done.

• Any material on individual small islands surrounding to make this bit less listy would be helpful.

I could move a few to etymology, so killing two euns with one clach.

Sounds good. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 08:53, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Attempted.

• The bit on ferries should be in transport maybe?

Moved to present day. There is no air service or public transport so I don't think it needs its own section. Added a sentence about the road.

A single road? See that stuff is fascinating - for us aussies, alot of these names have great significance - my grandmother was born in Lismore, New South Wales and I spent some time there as a medical student (nice town BTW), so one thinks these places must be substantial. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 08:53, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

They were once more substantial than they are now, population-wise at least. If you Google- earth it you will see that much of the road is also single-track. (I see we don't know if the NSW version is named after the Scottish or the Irish variety - makes you wonder how we know anything at all from 1,000 years ago).

• The island's dimensions and highest elevation should be in this section.

Done.

• Any conservation areas on the island?

The text does mention the Lynn of Lorn National Scenic Area. I don't think there are any of note but I will look into this.

Added 2 SAC mentions and an SSSI.

• There is, however, no reason to suppose that this was a daughter house of Columba's abbey on Iona itself. - I am not sure how this relates one way pr teh other to the preceding sentence.

The assumption that readers might leap to is that somehow Lismore's monastery was created by or subservient to the more famous house on Iona, so this is an attempt to clarify that there is no evidence for this (even although the records we have today are provided via the Iona Chronicle).

Ok Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 08:54, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

• Lismore is the home of the Clan MacLea. - I'd expand this paragraph a little if possible - how much sway do they have over the island? etc.

I'll look into this - they are a rather obscure bunch and their present day influence is next to nothing.

As you can see this "clan" was officially recognised in those far distant times, 2002. The existence of an ancient clan of this name is not in doubt. Its relationship with the island post 18th century would seem to be tenuous and most if not all of its 'history' on the clan website somewhat dubious. You will note they are keen to stress the relationship with the Livingstone family, presumably on the grounds that there are numerous famous Livingstones, but narry a one called MacLea that I can see. I had a quick foray in that direction and cleaned up some on-wiki bits but attempting to get involved in clan history is a not a great way to maintain sanity.

• The Present day section needs info on how many towns and villages there are on teh island. Also politically where does it belong and how does it vote?

Per the above, there are no towns or villages. The only recognisable settlements are Achnacroish, Port Ramsay (winter population I suspect about 2) and Clachan, which is a crossroads with a church and a farm or two. I'll add the constituency stuff asap but there are not going to be any numbers on how such a small population votes - only who represents them.

Constituency stuff done. Ben MacDui 08:46, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

This sort of info on the size of the villages is fantastic and would be great if we could get sourcing as it really helps give a firm picture to the reader on that is there (surely we must be able to source this somewhere/somehow??). Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 08:56, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Will have a look but these are tiny places and mentions may not reach the RS threshold.

Tried the Gazeteer, Scotland's Places, Rough Guide, Haswell-Smith and Virtual Hebrides, with no luck. Scottish anchorages was a bit scathing about Achnacroish, which clearly doesn't measure up to the yachtie's standards. I was in a nearby village a while ago - there were over a hundred residents in summer, but only two old folk in winter. Ben MacDui 19:52, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Sigh - you tried - I understand....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:20, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Will look at prose more after more info added. Interesting read, cheers. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:26, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Many thanks for the review. I will complete the remainder asap. Ben MacDui 08:49, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

MORE - any info on the size of the lochs on Lismore...or are they wee puddles? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 08:54, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

They are bigger than puddles, but unless SNH have something I might be struggling.

Found an approx measure. Will look for more. Ben MacDui 19:16, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Good stuff. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:20, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

1. Well written?:

Prose quality:

Manual of Style compliance:

2. Factually accurate and verifiable?:

References to sources:

Citations to reliable sources, where required:

No original research:

3. Broad in coverage?:

Major aspects:

Focused:

4. Reflects a neutral point of view?:

Fair representation without bias:

5. Reasonably stable?

No edit wars, etc. (Vandalism does not count against GA):

6. Illustrated by images, when possible and appropriate?:

Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

Overall:

Pass or Fail: - Good work chiselling out some more info..reckon we're over the GA line here..Cheers, Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:25, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Many thanks - and you have inspired me to further efforts. To my surprise the lochs are mentioned in Ye Olde Bathymetrical Survey, which contains enough info for a whole new section. I also need to check an issue about Gaelic spelling of one of the islets. Ben MacDui 08:18, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Move to Lismore, Argyll and Bute

I see that this page was moved from Lismore, Scotland to Lismore, Argyll and Bute ‎ with an edit summary of "Consistency; all other Lismore articles have 'Lismore' then the local area, rather than the country. E.g., Lismore, Co. Waterford rather than Lismore, Ireland."

I think that this should have been discussed first in view of the discussion above about a previous move. It also does not appear to be consistent with other islands e.g.: Jura, Scotland‎ and Canna, Scotland. There are also about 300 links that could be updated. AlasdairW (talk) 21:30, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Firstly, I agree - to move a long standing article without any discussion is very unhelpful.

Secondly, Scottish island articles that require disambiguation go with the style [Island, Scotland] or, if there is more than one Scots island with that name, [Island, Archipelago]. There is no other use of [Island, Council area] that I am aware of (save in the Northern Isles where archipelago and Council area are the same)- thus we we have:

• Oronsay, Inner Hebrides; Scalpay, Outer Hebrides; St Kilda, Scotland etc.

We now have a both a redirect problem and a category that is inconsistent.

Furthermore, the logic that 'other projects do it this way' is not one that generally applies on Wikipedia.

The simplest thing would be a move back to Lismore, Scotland. My 2nd preference woudl be Lismore, Inner Hebrides - although the latter is clumsy, less obvious to those unfamilair with Scots geography and unnecessary (there are no other Lismores in Scotland). Ben MacDui 07:37, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Done - I will have a look at the other redirects as well soon. Ben MacDui 15:45, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Moved again

Once again the article was moved without discussion, this time to Lismore (Scotland). I have moved it back to Lismore, Scotland in accordance with agreements above and WP:UKPLACE. --Deskford (talk) 12:55, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

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